Dzogchen Teachings

[RongzomFan]

I'll stick to the technical definition of trekcho.

 

 

You either recognize unfabricated presence (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma) versus the conceptualizing mind.

 

Or you don't

 

End of thread.

[Jax]

Your use of the verb 'is' denotes an absolute state. The use of the verb 'is' arises from Aristotelian logic which denotes a black/white, yes/no dichotomy. This logic leaves out any other possibilities.

Well, the Mind of Clear Light is an absolute state, as the empty continuum. In its Clear Light status that Clear Light Mind is known as timeless and changeless Knowingness. It is not a self nor a Self. It can't be established as this or that or nothing. It is known in the prajna moment of "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". It is this continuum that reincarnates, embodies, yet has no fixed identity of its own. This can only be known in moments of Rigpa. However it has the qualities of unconditional love, power and omniscience. Everything is its Light. But we must leave this Buddha Mind fully "unestablished". Words and concepts just get us further from this pure Mind of Clear Light. The Totality is a vast cosmic single Hologram, known in Dzogchen as the Thigle Chenpo or vast Hyper-Sphere. Labelling this as a Self or God or background etc. is the mistake of Advaita. Its empty of all possible description regarding its ontological nature.

[Jax]

Hi Jax,

 

No chooser, but do you perceive that there is unique/individual perspective or view of arisings?

 

Thanks, Jeff

Every perception or experience is unique, but there is no individual having those experiences or perceptions. Experiences are not "happening" to someone. Just like waves are not "happening" to the ocean.

[Jax]

I'll stick to the technical definition of trekcho.

 

 

You either recognize unfabricated presence (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma) versus the conceptualizing mind.

 

Or you don't

 

End of thread.

Trekcho means "cutting through". "Cutting through 'sem' or karmic mind the source of contraction and tension. When that "thorough cut" occurs the experience is "kadag", the primordially pure nature. We then continue in that totally relaxed but vividly clear state of rigpa.

[Jeff]

Every perception or experience is unique, but there is no individual having those experiences or perceptions. Experiences are not "happening" to someone. Just like waves are not "happening" to the ocean.

 

Thanks again for the above response.

 

But, if "unique perspective" continues and one can shift/change and expand that perspective, how would that be different than the classical definition of "higher Self"? Or, is your perspective that ultimately the "wave" ceases (or ultimately looses) it's unique perspective in the "ocean"?

 

Also, I was wondering if you had missed my earlier questions...

 

...

 

If the mind "collapses", how is there a harmonizing? What you describe sounds more like an "overlay", which causes a kind of mind/ego "shutdown".

 

Also, do you perceive a difference between mind-mind transmission and light-light based transmission?

 

Finally, have you reached the point where you can "give" transmission?

...

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[Jax]

Thanks again for the above response.

 

But, if "unique perspective" continues and one can shift/change and expand that perspective, how would that be different than the classical definition of "higher Self"? Or, is your perspective that ultimately the "wave" ceases (or ultimately looses) it's unique perspective in the "ocean"?

 

Also, I was wondering if you had missed my earlier questions...

 

...

 

If the mind "collapses", how is there a harmonizing? What you describe sounds more like an "overlay", which causes a kind of mind/ego "shutdown".

 

Also, do you perceive a difference between mind-mind transmission and light-light based transmission?

 

Finally, have you reached the point where you can "give" transmission?

...

 

Best wishes, Jeff

Hey Jeff!

 

I didn't use the term "unique perspective". That seems to be a mental construction. Experiences have never happened to anyone. They are arising in "free fall". The sense of "I am experiencing this from my unique perspective" is just a thought, arising without an actual unique perspective knowing this. These are good questions. But there is an ultimate basis that defies all description. I call it Quantum Intelligence. However it lies within experience not as an observer of it. Its quite mysterious. When accessed its Known. And its beyond description. Its not a "higher power", but rather is Power, the Power that is all that is happening.

 

When the skandha of consciousness dissolves either in meditation, insight or death, the Clear Light is momentarily Known, but not often not recognized as one's True Nature. The wave doesn't "cease" but rather collapses back into its origin which is a huge expansion, not cessation.

 

The harmonizing comes after the mind's collapse...

 

There is neither Light or mind to mind transmission actually. Nothing is "transmitted". Its purely within oneself. It's a sudden "turning the Light around". By the way, I have a lot of yogic experience with Taoism as well as 30 years of study, practice, Tai Chi, I-Chuan, Chi Kung, Nei Kung and meditation. My main awakening came doing Taoist yogic light circulation practices regarding the "mud ball palace" in the brain.

 

Yes, I do share this with others... I teach two classes per week and have private students. I have several Dzogchen groups on the internet, FB and Yahoo Groups. My last retreat in Sweden, audio recordings are posted on YouTube. My book is a "direct introduction" and is meant specifically to be totally transformative.

[Jax]

To really get a flavor of the deeper elements of Dzogchen in the higher level of practice known as Thogal, I will share this:

 

"Many don't understand the principles of thogal and yang-ti. These both change the paradigm radically. The heart as "citta" is considered the location of Ground Rigpa in all thogal and yang-ti traditions, both Bon and Buddhist. This Ground is the Dharmakaya. Out of this Ground arises "path rigpa"(son-light) a clear light thigle located in the brain. The "wrathful deities" arise as the display of this thigle called the "thigle dronma" in yang-ti. The yeshe aspect is the "mirror-like wisdom" in which all appearences appear like reflections. It is your "consciousness". It is the Sambhogakaya. It either recognizes its Basis (Mother-light)in the heart-citta or not. Actually they are always "one" as they are connected by the central channel. It is this thigle of conscious Clear Light that goes in and out the body in Phowa. OBE and at death. This is the consciousness that "recognizes" or not. When it recognizes its Ground as Dharmakaya, its a Sambhogakaya Buddha. When it fails to recognize its Basis, sem arises as the manifestation of this "ignorance". Ignorance is not a thing, its the "non recognition". This "non-recognition" is the first link of the 12 nidanas. "Right View" is "recognition" as pointed out or realized.

As dualistic mind, (sem) arises due to the inner karmic energies as karmic prana mix with the Clear Light in the small channel between the lungs and the heart -citta. When all these polluted karmic pranas are brought into the central channel, they transform into their basis as "yeshe lung". (Wisdom wind) In Dzogchen by remaining completely present and relaxed in the natural state alone the karmic prana reverts to its basis as "yeshe lung" naturally without having to be brought into the central channel. Some are using a Hinayana model to understand Dzogchen that ignores the energy aspects of how Samantabhadra embodies within a physical dimension through the subtle and unchanging Vajra Body of Light. This is like the difference between the view of Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics."

[konchog uma]

Hi Jax,

 

thank you for the explanations. When i experienced direct introduction it was as you describe, a collapse of the waveform of my consciousness and an expanse into space or spaceousness. It was immediate and transformative.

 

I am not negating anything anyone else says, only sharing my experience to confirm that in my case, it happened that way. i believe that for some it is gradual, and for some it is direct, so I am not saying my way is the best way or the right way or any nonsense talk like that.

 

A question: how does rigpa relate to clear light in your understanding?

Edited March 5, 2013 by konchog uma

[Jax]

Just "got" waves from your post, Jax.

 

edited to add the quotes.

 

 

Ah! Nice!! :-)

[Jax]

Hi Jax,

 

thank you for the explanations. When i experienced direct introduction it was as you describe, a collapse of the waveform of my consciousness and an expanse into space or spaceousness. It was immediate and transformative.

 

I am not negating anything anyone else says, only sharing my experience to confirm that in my case, it happened that way. i believe that for some it is gradual, and for some it is direct, so I am not saying my way is the best way or the right way or any nonsense talk like that.

 

A question: how does rigpa relate to clear light in your understanding?

 

 

Clear Light is rigpa. It's the energy aspect as "Cognitve Illumination". It's a bit like the event horizon of a black hole ( the transparent glow of Ultimate Emptiness)

[Jax]

It may be more interesting if anyone would like to engage in this "direct introduction" process. This can be done for some in this format of "one on one" communication, Q and A.

 

If anyone is interested, we can begin the dialogue now. Once a dialogue begins, just follow along, short comments are ok, but a focused cycle of communication should not be interrupted by others.

 

However, only those truly serious about this should participate...

[ralis]

Why would it matter to you, if he doesn't have insight of anatta? There are many people who teach or write/translate books that don't. That doesn't mean he can't teach you about Dzogchen or lead you to insight of Brahman.

 

You do you know what 'instant presence,' is like right? If you already have what you were 'introduced' to stabilized: Then it's just a matter of applying whatever teachings to become more integrated, with what you were introduced to.

 

Trekcho (cutting through) and thogal (leap-over,) belong to the menngagde cycle of teachings. Learning how to apply those on your own from Jax, gives you more of a chance of total integration in this lifetime: Even if the one passing it along, isn't able to help you go that far in terms of insight. It all depends on your own conditions in the end.

 

You could always apply the readily available teachings of Mahamudra. There is also the longde cycle of Dzogchen and its equivalent of the four yogas, if you haven't already received those teachings.

 

The worst possible scenario is a case of false advertisement.

 

 

I appreciate what you are saying. It helps me to challenge how certain teachings are presented. Yes. I have had experience with this when I was very young and while sky gazing.

[teknix]

Hi Teknix! Its not about releasing all thoughts and conceptualizations to emptiness, but rather the mind at its deepest levels SEES all thoughts and conceptualizations to be empty, like transparent messages floating in space like little holograms that have no substance beyond their own alluring message.

 

I don't understand the difference, could you elaborate? Either emptiness reigns or it doesn't?

[teknix]

From the perspective of one who thinks of themself as themself, the inherentness of emptiness would be unknown, so how is that useful? The inherent nature seems to be being claimed rather than shown.

Edited March 6, 2013 by teknix

[ralis]

From the perspective of one who thinks of themself as themself, the inherentness of emptiness would be unknown, so how is that useful? The inherent nature seems to be being claimed rather than shown.

 

 

Good point.

[ralis]

You do you know that the Bonpos are more open about giving these type of teachings right?

 

There is usually a retreat in Crestone Co. in early fall. I hope to be there this year.

[ralis]

http://www.chammaling.org/- You talking about this sangha or another one?

 

You ever think about going on the dark retreat at the end of Tenzin Wangyals program? I think you had to have been continuously attending the program for a year or two right?

 

 

That is the one. Is that where you go?

[Jax]

Can you determine when one is "ready?"

Yes, through the initial conversations...

[Jax]

Jax, I can see the pitfalls...folks interrupting in this/other threads here at TTB. Do you welcome PMs for this process?

Sure... however it may be useful for others to relate to the dialogue as well. I am also experimenting with this mode of transmission, it has been workable for some.

[Jax]

This sounds very much like a description of Nirguna Brahman.

 

Could you clarify the difference between this and the view of Advaita Vedanta?

Advaita postulates a "background" substrate. In Dzogchen we have "essence, nature and energy (thugje). This equates to Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya. All appearences and rigpa have these three aspects as one nature. The essence or Dharmakaya aspect is the Ground from which the other two appear. Advaita postulates this Ground to have an abiding character or identity as the "Self" etc. Many texts in Dzogchen describe this Ground in many different ways. Its a condition of "omniscience", emptiness as having no substance or location in space or time, "space-like" because it has no border or center, reflexively sensitive as in compassion, Clarity as in vivid "presence". It is "empty" of adventitious karmic stains, but not empty of its own inherent qualities. When the karmic self-consciousness collapses back into the Ground, from which it arose, the Sambhogakaya arises as a Buddha. When the that Buddha embodies in the human dimension it is called a Nirmanakaya. So in the "essence" aspect, Dzogchen is in perfect accord with Madhyamaka and Prajnaparamita teachings on the absence of any imputed self, yet it has all the qualities of a Buddha.

[Jeff]

Advaita postulates a "background" substrate. In Dzogchen we have "essence, nature and energy (thugje). This equates to Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya. All appearences and rigpa have these three aspects as one nature. The essence or Dharmakaya aspect is the Ground from which the other two appear. Advaita postulates this Ground to have an abiding character or identity as the "Self" etc. Many texts in Dzogchen describe this Ground in many different ways. Its a condition of "omniscience", emptiness as having no substance or location in space or time, "space-like" because it has no border or center, reflexively sensitive as in compassion, Clarity as in vivid "presence". It is "empty" of adventitious karmic stains, but not empty of its own inherent qualities. When the karmic self-consciousness collapses back into the Ground, from which it arose, the Sambhogakaya arises as a Buddha. When the that Buddha embodies in the human dimension it is called a Nirmanakaya. So in the "essence" aspect, Dzogchen is in perfect accord with Madhyamaka and Prajnaparamita teachings on the absence of any imputed self, yet it has all the qualities of a Buddha.

Hi Jax,

 

I do not see how Advaita texts postulate and "abiding character or identity" as the Self. Rather the "Self" is defined as you have defined the Dzogchen "ground" above. Also, Buddhism describes the need for the "vow" to make it all the way to Buddhahood. In your wave analogy, "who" is making (and keeping) the vow?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[ralis]

Hi Jax,

 

I do not see how Advaita texts postulate and "abiding character or identity" as the Self. Rather the "Self" is defined as you have defined the Dzogchen "ground" above. Also, Buddhism describes the need for the "vow" to make it all the way to Buddhahood. In your wave analogy, "who" is making (and keeping) the vow?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

 

Good point. I am always concerned as to how the semantics of Dzogchen are framed. In one of Jax's posts he clearly stated there is no free will, no free choice etc. That deterministic philosophical argument has been debated by philosophers for generations with no clear cut answers. If the cosmos is nothing but a cause and effect mechanism, that implies a 'prime mover' (Aristotle, Newton). Dzogchen denies a prime mover, God, transcendent deity or whatever. In thinking about your question as to who, there are no clear cut answers.

 

If quantum mechanics is to be used as an argument for a basis of Dzogchen, then the observer effect must be included in the argument. The observer effect implies a causal link between the observer and the observed.

 

Honestly, I take pause when quantum mechanics is used as a basis for spiritual discourse.

Edited March 6, 2013 by ralis

[ralis]

Dzogchen teachings refer to energy and light as a self organizing space of being?

[ralis]

It seems to me that experiencing light requires an observer.

Edited March 6, 2013 by ralis

[RongzomFan]

Honestly, I take pause when quantum mechanics is used as a basis for spiritual discourse.

 

Its the fad for New Age writers.

Edited March 7, 2013 by alwayson