Dzogchen Teachings

[ralis]

Jax has the same level of Dzogchen knowledge as Tibetan Ice.

 

My statement was an honest one in that I see a lot of use of Quantum Mechanics or just quantum to somehow define spiritually. Has anyone here opened a Quantum Mechanics text? Extremely technical and dense. Mostly equations.

Edited March 6, 2013 by ralis

[Mandrake]

Or if he really does teach his students the methods for thogal: Then the worst case scenario would be a psychotic breakdown of the individuals psyche from using these methods.

 

SJ:

Have you seen this yourself, or do you repeat what you've just heard? The reason I take a softer stance toward this nowadays is that CHNN recently taught Thödgel to a crowd of around thousand people - even people who just asked to attend, had no practice background whatever, just interest. We should at least have a couple of psychotic people around soon, no?

 

 

Mandrake

[Mandrake]

It seems to me that experiencing light requires an observer.

Care to elaborate?

If some kind of bare, unmediated knowledge is inherent to light (flipside of the same coin), then each pattern that the light organizes into will be "conscious"; that consciousness is of course expressed differently, with various gross level functions, no observer required.

 

Or, do you point to the meaning we in normal life assign to "experiencing" through which we create a split? In that sense one can't really experience light...

 

 

Mandrake

[Mandrake]

My statement was an honest one in that I see a lot of use of Quantum Mechanics or just quantum to somehow define spiritually. Has anyone here opened a Quantum Mechanics text? Extremely technical and dense. Mostly equations.

 

I have. I'm very tempted to always keep some slides from my old textbooks in my pockets, ready to throw them to the next guru who stealthily mixes some QM into his beliefs, and ask for an indepth explanation. Interestingly enough, I've encountered people who can make a connection in a sound way, but they are very cautious in doing so.

[Jax]

SJ:

Have you seen this yourself, or do you repeat what you've just heard? The reason I take a softer stance toward this nowadays is that CHNN recently taught Thödgel to a crowd of around thousand people - even people who just asked to attend, had no practice background whatever, just interest. We should at least have a couple of psychotic people around soon, no?

 

 

Mandrake

He also taught Yang-ti that is even higher than thogal, to such a large crowd.

[ralis]

Yang-ti?

[Jax]

I have. I'm very tempted to always keep some slides from my old textbooks in my pockets, ready to throw them to the next guru who stealthily mixes some QM into his beliefs, and ask for an indepth explanation. Interestingly enough, I've encountered people who can make a connection in a sound way, but they are very cautious in doing so.

I have made a study of quantum for over 30 years and have some insight into the basics, especially as being taught currently by highly respected physicists for public consumption. A vision of the universe is appearing to be in great accord with Dzogchen teachings on energy and consciousness. ESP, synchronicities etc. are more easily explained knowing David Bohm's and Karl Pribram's work on the holographic universe and brain. What's really interesting is Quantum Information physics. These guys have actually made a working teleportation experiment. Instead of the universe being "energy" it is seen to be "information" as "q-bits". Q-bits are the basic. They appear from emptiness or nothingness with no prior cause. They are outside of dependent origination. The entire universe is only these bits of information. Consciousness and brains are the information processors that turn the information into a visible universe. I have a whole chapter in my book on this topic and how it relates to researched cases of the "Body of Light" occurrences in recent Tibet.

[Jax]

Yang-ti?

Dark Retreat practices from the cycle of Dung Tso Repa. Now this stuff is really powerful!

[Jax]

Many rapid shifts, including crown opening and burning of ego has been happening to me in the past couple of months. Today my head was bursting and expanding outward on the commute to work. More waviness experienced in the torso and arms in this thread. My ego wants to understand what's happening. But then, I have to essentially "throw away" current struggles and simply allow all the unfolding. It feels like a dance. Sream or cry. Then, open and allow. I do know how to and have opened through the cries, releasing the energies. Diving down below thoughts seems to increase calmness, as I have not used mind techniques much at all, as I have a lineage energy based practice with periodic energy based projections. I can't yet sustain the feeling of oneness. My ego can't see that at all.

I would recommend going slow. Relax with shamatha and stablize shamatha first. More grounding. I don't like the symptons. I always try to the cool the system down when I hear from people with what you are sharing. Putting the pot on the back burner at low heat is much safer. Lots of walks in nature, forgetting about "teachings" and just relaxing. Then I would dialogue to get a feel for your situation in greater detail. This format is not so good for this situation. Email me: [email protected]

[Jax]

SJ:

Have you seen this yourself, or do you repeat what you've just heard? The reason I take a softer stance toward this nowadays is that CHNN recently taught Thödgel to a crowd of around thousand people - even people who just asked to attend, had no practice background whatever, just interest. We should at least have a couple of psychotic people around soon, no?

 

 

Mandrake

There is no danger from learning and practicing thogal, none at all. However the "sun gazing" is very dangerous for one's eyes. One can cause permanent damage to one's retina. One should use light bulbs and candles instead. The way I teach thogal is totally safe. The phenomena don't arise unless the person is actually ready (trekchod stable).

[Jax]

Care to elaborate?

If some kind of bare, unmediated knowledge is inherent to light (flipside of the same coin), then each pattern that the light organizes into will be "conscious"; that consciousness is of course expressed differently, with various gross level functions, no observer required.

 

Or, do you point to the meaning we in normal life assign to "experiencing" through which we create a split? In that sense one can't really experience light...

 

 

Mandrake

Light experiences are meant to be "interior" not some light to see... The Light is consciousness.

[Jax]

Found some info on dark retreat:

 

http://bonshenling.org/dark-retreat-study/

The Nyingma Dark Retreat is quite different. I did it under Norbu's immediate personal supervision. Its based on the Yang-ti of Dung Tso Repa's Seven Levels of inner states. It results in Rainbow Body.

[Jax]

Hi Jax,

 

I do not see how Advaita texts postulate and "abiding character or identity" as the Self. Rather the "Self" is defined as you have defined the Dzogchen "ground" above. Also, Buddhism describes the need for the "vow" to make it all the way to Buddhahood. In your wave analogy, "who" is making (and keeping) the vow?

 

Best wishes, Jeff

There is no Bodhisattva Vow in Dzogchen. There are no rules, samaya or vows in actual Dzogchen.

 

In Advaita the Ground is a mystical Divinity as Self that is "unchanged" by conditioning. In Dzogchen there is no Ground that can be conditioned.

[Jax]

Jax:

 

What is your view on starting out with thogal and then going onto trekcho? Apparently, the Palyul Nyingma and Bon lineages do it this way.

 

Is your new e-book going to go into any experiences of dark retreat? Will it also give detailed instructions on how to apply thogal? Or is this something you only give out, when someone is already learning with you one-on-one? Does this require that someone get direct introduction from you or can someone skip this if they have already received this from someone else? What do you as a teacher have to offer to the prospective student that can't already be received elsewhere?

 

Is there usually a process before someone can start learning from you and/or is it a matter of joining one of your groups? Do you charge any fees? Lastly how much is your e-book going to cost when it comes out?

Wow! So many questions! My book is designed to bring one to the level of "threkchod" realization. Then anyone having really completed the book successfully is prepared to do thogal. I then would teach that by skype of in retreat. I don't charge money for anything I teach, including retreats. If you are interested in further discussions personally, email me

at; [email protected]

[Jax]

Jax, I can see the pitfalls...folks interrupting in this/other threads here at TTB. Do you welcome PMs for this process?

Yes, emails are fine; [email protected]

[Jeff]

There is no Bodhisattva Vow in Dzogchen. There are no rules, samaya or vows in actual Dzogchen.

 

In Advaita the Ground is a mystical Divinity as Self that is "unchanged" by conditioning. In Dzogchen there is no Ground that can be conditioned.

 

Hi Jax,

 

So then you would say that there is no difference from Rig pa and Buddhahood? Or, is there an ongoing "removal of obstructions"?

 

Thanks, Jeff

[Jax]

Why would it matter to you, if he doesn't have insight of anatta? There are many people who teach or write/translate books that don't. That doesn't mean he can't teach you about Dzogchen or lead you to insight of Brahman.

 

You do you know what 'instant presence,' is like right? If you already have what you were 'introduced' to stabilized: Then it's just a matter of applying whatever teachings to become more integrated, with what you were introduced to.

 

Trekcho (cutting through) and thogal (leap-over,) belong to the menngagde cycle of teachings. Learning how to apply those on your own from Jax, gives you more of a chance of total integration in this lifetime: Even if the one passing it along, isn't able to help you go that far in terms of insight. It all depends on your own conditions in the end.

 

You could always apply the readily available teachings of Mahamudra. There is also the longde cycle of Dzogchen and its equivalent of the four yogas, if you haven't already received those teachings.

 

The worst possible scenario is a case of false advertisement.

Realization of anatta has been realized here... lol

[Jax]

I don't understand the difference, could you elaborate? Either emptiness reigns or it doesn't?

Releasing is spontaneous... not a doing. Its like the mind seeing a rope is not really a snake. Emptiness is not something that can "reign". The mind either sees a projection empty or not... but not in a general all inclusive way unless in rigpa.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Jax

[三江源]

I understand some of yous wanting to veer off into email discussions... at the same time, I do appreciate the sharings. I hope you stick around, I'm learning from your conversation. So thankyou.

[Jax]

Hi Jax,

 

So then you would say that there is no difference from Rig pa and Buddhahood? Or, is there an ongoing "removal of obstructions"?

 

Thanks, Jeff

Rigpa has no need to remove obstructions. It has never been afflicted or obstructed and therefore needs no purification of kleshas etc. Rigpa is nirvana. The progression of profound depth of Buddhahood is infinite.

[Jax]

I understand some of yous wanting to veer off into email discussions... at the same time, I do appreciate the sharings. I hope you stick around, I'm learning from your conversation. So thankyou.

Personal stuff is best in email. General questions and engaging in a dialectic towards understanding is good here...

[ralis]

Jax,

 

You are being very helpful with clearing some misunderstandings.

 

Thank you

[Jeff]

Rigpa has no need to remove obstructions. It has never been afflicted or obstructed and therefore needs no purification of kleshas etc. Rigpa is nirvana. The progression of profound depth of Buddhahood is infinite.

 

Hi Jax,

 

How is that different? Or, what do you mean by "The progression of profound depth of Buddhahood is infinite"? What is progression in your concept?

 

Thanks again, Jeff

[Jax]

Direct Introduction:

 

From the Yeshe Lama by Jigmed Lingpa,
translated by Lama Chonam and Sangye Khandro


This is an actual written Dzogchen Direct Introduction. Please do not
share this outside of our group. It is a restricted text.

"Kye!

Do not contrive or elaborate the awareness (rigpa) of this very moment. Allow
it to be just as it is. This is not established as existing, not
existing, or having a direction. It does not discern between emptiness
and appearances and does not have the characteristics of nihilism and
eternalism. Within this state where nothing exists, it is unnecessary
to exert effort through view or mediation. The great primordial
liberation is not like being released from bondage. It is natural
radiance uncontrived by the intellect, wisdom unsullied by concepts.
The nature of phenomena, not tainted by the view and meditation, is
eveneness without placement ...without premeditation. It is clarity
without characteristics and vastness not lost to uniformity. Although
all sentient beings have never been separate from their own indwelling
wisdom even for an instant, by failing to recognize this, it becomes
like a natural flow of water solidifying into ice. With the inner
grasping mind as the root cause and outer objective clinging as the
contributing circumstance, beings wander in samsara indefinitely. Now,
with the guru's oral instructions, at the moment of encountering
awareness--without any mental constructions-- rest in the way things
truly are, without wavering from or meditating on anything. This
fully reveals the core wisdom intent of the primordial Buddha
Kuntuzangpo."

[Jax]

Jax,

 

You are being very helpful with clearing some misunderstandings.

 

Thank you

Glad to hear! Most welcome!