Dzogchen Teachings

[Jax]

I'm not going to argue with someone who I view as mentally ill. Believe what you wish.

Yes, attack the person you are not able to defeat with correct information. That is the usual m.o. of passive/aggressives...

[RongzomFan]

Yes, the fundamentalist taliban had a huge problem with my teaching outside the traditions. Who cares?

 

Thats not the issue.

[RongzomFan]

Yes, attack the person you are not able to defeat with correct information. That is the usual m.o. of passive/aggressives...

 

All you do is exploit whatever correct information you are given!

[Jax]

 

Hey, I'm just going by what Malcolm has said over on DW:

Malcolm is wrong. There are no five "elements". They are Buddhist and Hindu pseudo-science. Modern physics, especially quantum is where you should be looking... not to Malcolm quoting Buddhist mythology. Recently I read a Lama said to another Lama about Westerners: "Do they really believe the Earth is round and not flat as the teachings say?" Or better yet, the Menri Loppon asked us if it is not true that when you squeeze a snake it will make its legs pop-out! When we told him no its not true, and that snakes have no hidden legs, he was shocked and dismayed. The Dalai said in a video that "brain scientists have proven that the information about the Abhidarma is wrong, so we must change our beliefs when science proves them wrong." Wake up people!

[Jax]

Thats not the issue.

Its the only issue... besides the fact they are assholes to everyone, even each other. Read the moronic threads... Bickering back and forth over everything that was unimportant.

[Jax]

Debunked, like the fake "Flowering Light Tantra" of Tonpa Miwoche?

Jigma Lingpa is hardly "debunkable"...

[Jax]

Yes actually someone does have the authority. A Nyingma Lama.

No one has authority... they can make a claim, that then needs to be proven and demonstrated. Which Lama, where is his written statement outlining the specific errors? I also have another translation... didn't see any difference.

[Jax]

Okay, but the "Rainbow Body," represents a specific realization, that doesn't necessarily correlate to the physical signs at the time of death. This has to do with the end of the four visions.

Its all theory, coffee chat talk. No one has a clue except what they read about the Rainbow Body. But they argue amongst themselves like it matters...

[Jeff]

Not true! If a plant is has yet to reveal its fruit fully, nothing is "obstructing" the fruit from maturing.

Hi Jax,

 

Thanks again for the discussion... Do all plants produce fruit? Is all fruit equal in quality?

 

Also, on our fruit topic and regarding your past analogy, any thoughts on these words from the Lankavatara Sutra...

 

"The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation."

 

Thanks again, Jeff

[Jax]

Sorry guys... not interested in being here. You have my email... [email protected]

[Jax]

Hi Jax,

 

Thanks again for the discussion... Do all plants produce fruit? Is all fruit equal in quality?

 

Also, on our fruit topic and regarding your past analogy, any thoughts on these words from the Lankavatara Sutra...

 

"The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation."

 

Thanks again, Jeff

Nice Jeff! But Dzogchen has a different view. Rigpa has never been afflicted. Rigpa is your primordial state. Discover your condition of rigpa and rest in that unestablished nirvana. That's all. Everything in the lower yanas is automatic in rigpa.

[ralis]

I asked him if he would come back. Hope so.

[ralis]

I'm not going to argue with someone who I view as mentally ill. Believe what you wish.

 

Why do you feel the need to be rude? You don't have to be on this thread! Troll!

[Jax]

Awareness

 

We shouldn't make "awareness" into a dirty word when speaking about realization in Buddhism. "Awareness" can have very many subtle nuances outside of Advaita. At the Dharmakaya level of realization and experience, there is no localized center point of consciousness. The entire essence is unestablished in every way.

 

However, at the level of Sambhogakaya, the picture is quite different. At this level we appear in a dimension as a "deity". We have a body of Light. We sense that we are positioned in the center of a mandala of perceptual experience. That body of Light is within the physical body. It is our subtle energy system of chakras, channels, kundalini and chi or pranas. Our "consciousness" is a pure sphere of awareness, bindu or thigle, situated in the skull. Its connected to the heart chakra through the central channel. Our experience of Dharmakaya is experienced when our sphere of consciousness or awareness moves into the heart chakra.

 

When we die or have a temporary out of body experience our "awareness" sphere moves out through the eyes or out the top at the fontanele. Our perspective is always as being the sphere of awareness looking outward and around. We perceive directly without the body's sensory perceptions. We are this "awareness". Recognizing that we are this pure awareness along with its intrinsic wisdom, is rigpa. Rigpa is pure knowingness (gnosis) and awareness.

 

Our physical body has its own mode of consciousness within the functioning of the brain. It also has its own means of getting its goals accomplished. We get thoughts about sexual activity from the limbic system. For males with lots of testosterone there may be many more sexual thoughts. When other areas of the brain are stimulated or damaged we get different thoughts and thoughts patterns as well. We can actually alter the brain chemicals and hormones in the brain that will cause the person to feel depressed and to have negative thoughts. We change the chemicals and hormones to correct levels and the negative thoughts magically disappear. Our sphere of awareness is apart from this input, yet perceives it, like reflections in a mirror. This is known as the "mirror-like wisdom".

 

In Dzogchen we are reversing the process. As functioning at the Nirmanakaya level, by simply doing "calming meditation", we are just observing our thoughts as they come and go. These are mostly brain thoughts. We then become aware of the sense of being a separate aware observer of these thoughts. That is consciousness moving into the awareness as the Sambhogakaya. At this point we are realizing that we are not the brain, body or its thoughts. We are gaining insights that we are this pure empty observing awareness that is not the body or brain dependent. That is the beginning of vipassana or insight meditation. That will blossom into what is called "rigpa", pure Knowingness. (gnosis)

 

To go further in wisdom we come to understand the empty quality of our knowing awareness directly. By doing so we recognize the nature of the "unestablished" Dharmakaya. Awareness is never absent at any level of experience and is not a separate viewer of experience. Experience is itself aware and self-knowing. A Buddha functions through all three aspects: Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya (material body). The Sambhogakaya is localized presence as well as the Nirmanakaya. The Dharmakaya is non-local.

 

I hope this helps some to untie the knots in trying to figure out this "anatta" thing in accord with our apparent nature of awareness.

 

[C T]

Did someone delete the post where Jax called Pero an asshole for no apparent reason?

 

The mods on this forum, are truly Maras.

The prince of drama rides again.

 

You must be related to Kevin Solway in some mystified manner. He loves stirring poo too.

[RongzomFan]

Pretty original there, copying my Kevin Solway comment.

[C T]

Pretty original there, copying my Kevin Solway comment.

Copying? Hardly.

 

Solway has a bit of a reputation, so your assessment is way off.

 

Try again.

[RongzomFan]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27366-dzogchen-teachings/page-7#entry411587

[C T]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27366-dzogchen-teachings/page-7#entry411587

you didn't try hard enough.

[ralis]

 

Awareness

 

We shouldn't make "awareness" into a dirty word when speaking about realization in Buddhism. "Awareness" can have very many subtle nuances outside of Advaita. At the Dharmakaya level of realization and experience, there is no localized center point of consciousness. The entire essence is unestablished in every way.

 

However, at the level of Sambhogakaya, the picture is quite different. At this level we appear in a dimension as a "deity". We have a body of Light. We sense that we are positioned in the center of a mandala of perceptual experience. That body of Light is within the physical body. It is our subtle energy system of chakras, channels, kundalini and chi or pranas. Our "consciousness" is a pure sphere of awareness, bindu or thigle, situated in the skull. Its connected to the heart chakra through the central channel. Our experience of Dharmakaya is experienced when our sphere of consciousness or awareness moves into the heart chakra.

 

When we die or have a temporary out of body experience our "awareness" sphere moves out through the eyes or out the top at the fontanele. Our perspective is always as being the sphere of awareness looking outward and around. We perceive directly without the body's sensory perceptions. We are this "awareness". Recognizing that we are this pure awareness along with its intrinsic wisdom, is rigpa. Rigpa is pure knowingness (gnosis) and awareness.

 

Our physical body has its own mode of consciousness within the functioning of the brain. It also has its own means of getting its goals accomplished. We get thoughts about sexual activity from the limbic system. For males with lots of testosterone there may be many more sexual thoughts. When other areas of the brain are stimulated or damaged we get different thoughts and thoughts patterns as well. We can actually alter the brain chemicals and hormones in the brain that will cause the person to feel depressed and to have negative thoughts. We change the chemicals and hormones to correct levels and the negative thoughts magically disappear. Our sphere of awareness is apart from this input, yet perceives it, like reflections in a mirror. This is known as the "mirror-like wisdom".

 

In Dzogchen we are reversing the process. As functioning at the Nirmanakaya level, by simply doing "calming meditation", we are just observing our thoughts as they come and go. These are mostly brain thoughts. We then become aware of the sense of being a separate aware observer of these thoughts. That is consciousness moving into the awareness as the Sambhogakaya. At this point we are realizing that we are not the brain, body or its thoughts. We are gaining insights that we are this pure empty observing awareness that is not the body or brain dependent. That is the beginning of vipassana or insight meditation. That will blossom into what is called "rigpa", pure Knowingness. (gnosis)

 

To go further in wisdom we come to understand the empty quality of our knowing awareness directly. By doing so we recognize the nature of the "unestablished" Dharmakaya. Awareness is never absent at any level of experience and is not a separate viewer of experience. Experience is itself aware and self-knowing. A Buddha functions through all three aspects: Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya (material body). The Sambhogakaya is localized presence as well as the Nirmanakaya. The Dharmakaya is non-local.

 

I hope this helps some to untie the knots in trying to figure out this "anatta" thing in accord with our apparent nature of awareness.

 

 

 

 

That summed it nicely for me! Especially, the aspect that all so called levels are necessary as opposed to being told that one must leave a level in order to advance to the next and never retreat. There are many teachers that create these divisions and that is where I have been trapped for years. My view has changed.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Thanks Jax

Edited March 7, 2013 by ralis

[Jeff]

Nice Jeff! But Dzogchen has a different view. Rigpa has never been afflicted. Rigpa is your primordial state. Discover your condition of rigpa and rest in that unestablished nirvana. That's all. Everything in the lower yanas is automatic in rigpa.

 

Hi Jax,

 

Didn't think that Dzogchen disagreed with Sutra.

 

Since the group here seems to like Norbu's words... Here is basically his same "Dzogchen perspective" as the Sutra I provided...

 

 

"After having recognized one's own state, it is necessary to eliminate all doubts about it, not in a merely intellectual way, but rather through experience: instantaneous pure presence or recognition, called rigpa, must ripen and become more stable thanks to the various Longde methods tied to particular experiences of contemplation. Finally, the practitioner's task is to integrate the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world. This is the aim of the practices of the third and final series, the Mennagde, the supreme realization of which lies in the manifestation of the "rainbow body," the total re-absorption of the material elements into the pure energy and luminous essence of the primordial state."'

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde (Kindle Locations 583-588). Kindle Edition.

Removing doubts and integrating body energy with energy of the outer world is part of my definition of removing obstructions. The belief that ones body is not the "same" as the outer world is itself an obstruction (or something that must be "ripened into" ).

Also, it is hard for me to tell from your posts... Do you agree with the "total re-absorption of the material elements into the pure energy" concept of the rainbow body?

Best wishes, Jeff

[ralis]

I think worrying and or discussing the 'rainbow body' at this point in time is a distraction for most. Practice i.e, awareness is primary. To allow the verbal 'demon' to dominate furthers nothing. The verbal is just an inaccurate map that has very little correspondence to what is being discussed here. That is the main reason Dzogchen is pointed out symbolically as well as by other means. Ultimately, the verbal just doesn't cut it.

 

Given Jax's comments, it has been reaffirmed by myself that Norbu did successfully point out to me in my first retreat with him in 1989 at Synergia Ranch, the state of rigpa. What helped was my years of Vipassana that left me open to the transmission which allowed me to relax my mind so as to receive.

 

Personal retreats are of great benefit and I would highly recommend doing it. Especially, out in the middle of nowhere. I know a few places that I can recommend if anyone is interested.

Edited March 7, 2013 by ralis

[ralis]

Jax,

 

Do you have a link for your book yet? Amazon? Advance copies available?

Edited March 7, 2013 by ralis

[Jax]

Jax,

 

Do you have a link for your book yet? Amazon? Advance copies available?

Not yet... but soon! Thanks for asking!

[ralis]

Jax,

 

I sent you a PM a bit ago.