Dzogchen Teachings

[xabir2005]

Xabir2005,

 

 

You either recognize unfabricated presence (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma) vs the conceptualizing mind.

 

Or you don't.

 

There are no "degrees" or "stages" of it.

 

And many people, including Hindus, Zen, Taoists, neoAdvaitins recognize it. Thats not what makes Vajrayana different.

Vajayana is unique in many ways, just as Taoism is unique in its own ways and so on.

[JustARandomPanda]

So I take it it's impossible to experience this 'rigpa' (whatever the hell that is...guess there's no corresponding word in english...) unless you got a master or guru to give/introduce it to you?

[RongzomFan]

So I take it it's impossible to experience this 'rigpa' (whatever the hell that is...guess there's no corresponding word in english...) unless you got a master or guru to give/introduce it to you?

 

Zen people etc. also recognize unfabricated presence through meditation or whatever.

[ralis]

So I take it it's impossible to experience this 'rigpa' (whatever the hell that is...guess there's no corresponding word in english...) unless you got a master or guru to give/introduce it to you?

 

Jax is introducing rigpa in this thread. Yes, it is non verbal.

[C T]

All of this talk of preparations and prelims. is not in line with the Dzogchen view. These are all empty words and mental constructions. Simply rest in the vivid "unestablished". This is nirvana... Why get caught up in all these stories: paths, gurus, levels, seeds, obscurations, karma, attainments etc.? These are just empty day dreams... Where can any ground be found in this moment? There is no ground and hence no place for obscurations to accrue...

It may not be in line with 'your' Dzogchen view, but there are all these Dzogchen masters whom you have quoted, whose combined works can probably fill a library, why do you think that there is so much to talk about, if not to help a student fully ground the realization of unfabricated presence?

 

Its very easy to say 'simply rest in the vivid unestablished', but to many people, this resting comes in spurts, or flashes. Now its seen, now its not seen, that kind of way.

 

It needs to be known the formula for this resting to remain unceasingly.

 

Dont know about you, but from the little that i know of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, the only way to reach maturity/stability of being undistracted from the present is thru the combined practices of visualization, vipassana and shamatha. In other words, its easy to erect the 'posture' of rigpa, but after its been erected, how does one keep from wobbling?

 

Its all well and good to say there is nothing to do except to linger with unwavering awareness of this moment, but the relative world as its known, with all its distractive qualities, is not that accommodating most of the time. If its really that simple, all that was needed from you was to write a handful of words, and all the bums who scan those same words will have attained to the 'unestablished'. But see, a lot of words are needed. For all these words to be put here by you, surely that requires some effort as well. So its really not that simple.

 

Please dont assume that i disagree with the above points you have made. Actually, i fully endorse them a hundred percent, and i would say similar things to others, and have done so, on many occasions. But i always remind myself that talking is so easy, to actually remove obstacles and the subtlest traces of obscurations need some work.

[xabir2005]

So I take it it's impossible to experience this 'rigpa' (whatever the hell that is...guess there's no corresponding word in english...) unless you got a master or guru to give/introduce it to you?

Rigpa = knowledge, and there are three wisdoms of rigpa corresponding to primordial purity/emptiness, luminous clarity and compassionate energy

[themiddleway]

Hello everyone, id like to offer my thoughts on Dzogchen.

 

Dzogchen as it was originally taught transcended the classification of gradual or non-gradual ,the essential 'it' to get was instantly known or as Garab Dorje said: through direct introduction one has knowledge; one remains without any doubt; one continues with confidence in liberation.

 

The above statement is Norbu's justification for sharing the Dzogchen teachings with out any preliminaries. Rinpoche has been criticized by other lama's for being so open in sharing the teachings but as he has pointed out, he is remaining faithful to Garab Dorje's testament.

 

These three precepts are considered to summarise the whole of the Dzogchen teachings, this is all there is know, this is pure Dzogchen.

 

However, the majority of people today do not have the capacity to practice Dzogchen as an inderpendent vehicle, which would be fine if it wasn't for the tend to throw away any need for any maps in the rush for sudden enlightenment. Instant recognition is extremely rare, it actually indicates a connection to the teaching from previous lives. So where dose that leave ordinary mortals ?

 

Dzogchen dose not come with maps, you either get it or you don't, within the Indo-Tibetan tradition there are other schools better suited to the gradual pursuit of gnosis. Daniel.Brown's book "Pointing out the great way: the stages of meditation in the Mahamudra tradition," is an example of an excellant map. Internet forums do much to perpetuate the notion that Dzogchen is for every one, unfortunately it isn't. Dzogchen is not sky gazing or any other diluted yogic method that is now discussed on internet forums, it is a transmission from a qualified master to disciple. There is a saying in Vajrayana : 'the guru is more important than the Buddha.'

 

If you are interested in Dzogchen, you need a qualified guru. This is not a dated tradition, it is the ONLY way the teachings are preserved and transmitted. Once you have had a transmission you are free to explore other teachings but it all begins with the guru.

 

Peace.

[Jax]

How about if I use the term "universal mind"? The luminous appearances "exist" in universal mind.

 

Also, how do you know that they were "unconstructed"? Couldn't it have happened "beyond" your field of awareness?

 

Thanks, Jeff

From another thread... this may help:

 

In Dzogchen Thogel these inner chakras are what one works with, in the thogle context they are known as "dronma" lamps as opposed to "khorlo" (chakras). Rigpa is considered to be a thigle or dronma of pure Knowing in the brain. The basis or Zhi is considered to be in the heart chakra. In realization the rigpa thigle moves down into the heart. That is the meeting of the son light and mother light. In thogal practice one is integrating the light of rigpa that shines out the eyes as beads of rigpa, thigle, that appear as though out in the space in front of one. Actually this is all taking place in the heart but appears as thought "out there".

[Jax]

So I take it it's impossible to experience this 'rigpa' (whatever the hell that is...guess there's no corresponding word in english...) unless you got a master or guru to give/introduce it to you?

That's not true at all. You are that rigpa, but you are "vibrating" at a wavelength below the frequency of "Clear Light". Just notice the pure "instant presence", the "changeless observingness", the transparent awareness that is the knowingness in each moment. The "vibration" is mind, thoughts, a coarser consciousness. The vibration or "rigpa i' tsal" is the "ignorant consciousness" (shes pa) that does'nt know its rigpa essense. Collapse your "vibrating" as thought into the pure non-dual aware Knowingness, that is always "still" and self-liberate in this moment!

 

 

A helpful pointer:

 

Some think the state of Clear Light Awareness (rigpa) comes and goes. Then they wonder what to do to get that state of rigpa back again. Actually this view is part of the problem.

 

One's natural condition is always as Clear Light Awareness. However the mind is what comes and goes, not rigpa.

 

This is like saying "I will be the sky when the clouds finally leave" Instead of seeing that you are always the sky, whether the clouds are there or not.

 

Rest as vivid and alert, "unestablished" observingness, your vast sky-like nature and notice as mind, thoughts and perceptions come and go... like clouds.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Jax

[Jax]

It may not be in line with 'your' Dzogchen view, but there are all these Dzogchen masters whom you have quoted, whose combined works can probably fill a library, why do you think that there is so much to talk about, if not to help a student fully ground the realization of unfabricated presence?

 

Its very easy to say 'simply rest in the vivid unestablished', but to many people, this resting comes in spurts, or flashes. Now its seen, now its not seen, that kind of way.

 

It needs to be known the formula for this resting to remain unceasingly.

 

Dont know about you, but from the little that i know of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, the only way to reach maturity/stability of being undistracted from the present is thru the combined practices of visualization, vipassana and shamatha. In other words, its easy to erect the 'posture' of rigpa, but after its been erected, how does one keep from wobbling?

 

Its all well and good to say there is nothing to do except to linger with unwavering awareness of this moment, but the relative world as its known, with all its distractive qualities, is not that accommodating most of the time. If its really that simple, all that was needed from you was to write a handful of words, and all the bums who scan those same words will have attained to the 'unestablished'. But see, a lot of words are needed. For all these words to be put here by you, surely that requires some effort as well. So its really not that simple.

 

Please dont assume that i disagree with the above points you have made. Actually, i fully endorse them a hundred percent, and i would say similar things to others, and have done so, on many occasions. But i always remind myself that talking is so easy, to actually remove obstacles and the subtlest traces of obscurations need some work.

You are absolutely correct. This is why you really need a one on one discussion with someone who knows the territory perfectly well. Its not a formula, one size fits all. However, once you recognize, then its known. Then you find your own ways to trigger this again and again, short moments, many times until stable. The state is always stable, as the Basis doesn't change. But what is not stable is the absence of mind. The mind comes and goes, not rigpa. Get that? The biggest aspect of the mind that comes and goes is the sense of a "me". That is a subconscious projection that "you" do not control. That projection exists because the dumb mind consciousness doesnt know its situation properly. It mistakes the body, mind, thoughts, memories and self-image to be an existing "me". So it projects this historical "me" entity. It is created the same way that your self in your dreams at night is created. But when you wake up, you don't notice the subconsious is projecting another dream identity. That projection is "you", your current experience of "me" identity. Observe this sense of self, differentiate it from the empty observingness that is not a projection, when successful you will pop back into what you always are when not day dreaming being someone else: rigpa. I can dialogue to expose the "I" projection with you. Its like when the mind ceases believing that a rope in a dark room is not a snake when the lights are turned on. Likewise suddenly the mind realizes there is no "personal" self... poof!

Edited March 9, 2013 by Jax

[Jax]

Hello everyone, id like to offer my thoughts on Dzogchen.

 

Dzogchen as it was originally taught transcended the classification of gradual or non-gradual ,the essential 'it' to get was instantly known or as Garab Dorje said: through direct introduction one has knowledge; one remains without any doubt; one continues with confidence in liberation.

 

The above statement is Norbu's justification for sharing the Dzogchen teachings with out any preliminaries. Rinpoche has been criticized by other lama's for being so open in sharing the teachings but as he has pointed out, he is remaining faithful to Garab Dorje's testament.

 

These three precepts are considered to summarise the whole of the Dzogchen teachings, this is all there is know, this is pure Dzogchen.

 

However, the majority of people today do not have the capacity to practice Dzogchen as an inderpendent vehicle, which would be fine if it wasn't for the tend to throw away any need for any maps in the rush for sudden enlightenment. Instant recognition is extremely rare, it actually indicates a connection to the teaching from previous lives. So where dose that leave ordinary mortals ?

 

Dzogchen dose not come with maps, you either get it or you don't, within the Indo-Tibetan tradition there are other schools better suited to the gradual pursuit of gnosis. Daniel.Brown's book "Pointing out the great way: the stages of meditation in the Mahamudra tradition," is an example of an excellant map. Internet forums do much to perpetuate the notion that Dzogchen is for every one, unfortunately it isn't. Dzogchen is not sky gazing or any other diluted yogic method that is now discussed on internet forums, it is a transmission from a qualified master to disciple. There is a saying in Vajrayana : 'the guru is more important than the Buddha.'

 

If you are interested in Dzogchen, you need a qualified guru. This is not a dated tradition, it is the ONLY way the teachings are preserved and transmitted. Once you have had a transmission you are free to explore other teachings but it all begins with the guru.

 

Peace.

Well forget Guru, just a helpful friend will do. We don't need any more "gurus" thank you... What is the weak point is getting the "direct introduction" properly rendered. Most Lamas don't have the time for "one on ones". There is really no other way. I don't think most Lamas have the capacity to transmit rigpa either. They are just parrots, especially meaning the young ones.

Shamatha and vipassana are fully within Dzogchen and are the training method of the Semde section of Dzogchen. Dan Brown's approach is all about shamatha and vipassana with many vipassana "pointing outs" during the meditation practice. Do one of his one week Mahamudra retreats... It was truly great!

[Jax]

 

That's not true at all. You are that rigpa, but you are "vibrating" at a wavelength below the frequency of "Clear Light". Just notice the pure "instant presence", the "changeless observingness", the transparent awareness that is the knowingness in each moment. The "vibration" is mind, thoughts, a coarser consciousness. The vibration or "rigpa i' tsal" is the "ignorant consciousness" (shes pa) that does'nt know its rigpa essense. Collapse your "vibrating" as thought into the pure non-dual aware Knowingness, that is always "still" and self-liberate in this moment!

 

 

A helpful pointer:

 

Some think the state of Clear Light Awareness (rigpa) comes and goes. Then they wonder what to do to get that state of rigpa back again. Actually this view is part of the problem.

 

One's natural condition is always as Clear Light Awareness. However the mind is what comes and goes, not rigpa.

 

This is like saying "I will be the sky when the clouds finally leave" Instead of seeing that you are always the sky, whether the clouds are there or not.

 

Rest as vivid and alert, "unestablished" observingness, your vast sky-like nature and notice as mind, thoughts and perceptions come and go... like clouds.

From The Rosary of Views... This text is considered to possibly be the only authentic text written by Padmasambhava. He is discussing the Dzogchen view:

 

"As for Nearer Reliance, it means knowing that one's own self is Divinity (bdag nyid lhar shes pa ste). Just as all the dharmas are of the nature of the Buddha from the very beginning, so one's own self is of the nature of God (Lha). Likewise, this means realizing that striving to acquire deification is not the point [because it has always been an attribute of oneself]."

 

This doesn't sound like the Madhyamaka or Theravadin view to me... ;-)

[Jax]

Hi!

 

I am not seeing all these questions and comments as I log in daily. It might be better if we switch to my Dzogchen Discussion Group on Facebook. I am getting a lot of private emails also from the group here. I can do a better job if we switch to Facebook... please

 

http://www.facebook.com/groups/137617126381879/

[Simple_Jack]

I probably am confused by the rainbow body then. I just considered it to the the manual control of the autonomous system, or activating the energy centers/organs with consciousness of them.

 

Which is why I think this needs to be clarified more often, that the body of light is really a type of realization and not about physical signs of the body.

 

 

Means returning to the state of the basis -- the basis is called the basis because it has not been realized. When it is realized, the basis is called the result. If it is realized imperfectly, then that is called a result that returns to the cause; when it is realized perfectly, then it is called "the result that does not return to the cause"....Those who have completed the fourth vision experience the universe arising as the basis [snang srid gzhir bzhengs].

 

The three kāyas are the basis. Everything that appears to arise, arises from ignorance [ma rig pa] of this basis. When one is in possession of knowledge [rig pa] of the basis's actual state, and has integrated completely with that knowledge, then it is said that the universe arises as the basis.

 

~ Lopon Malcolm

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jax]

Which is why I think this needs to be clarified more often, that the body of light is not solely about physical sig

 

 

 

Which is why I think this needs to be clarified more often, that the body of light is not solely about physical signs.

 

 

 

 

 

Which is why I think this needs to be clarified more often, that the body of light is not solely about physical signs.

 

 

 

Malcolm is wrong here. Everything does not arise from Ignorance. The Base as Zhi is Kadag, the display is always pure. But a consciousness arises that doesn't recognise the source of the arisings nor of itself, It then begins grasping and samsara develops. The ignorance is not in the Base, its a later stage. All arising are Kadag or pure in every case.

[Jax]

So I take it it's impossible to experience this 'rigpa' (whatever the hell that is...guess there's no corresponding word in english...) unless you got a master or guru to give/introduce it to you?

No, you can read Lonchenpa's Precious Treasury and do just fine... He wrote it to wake people up... It does.

[Simple_Jack]

"Heart Drops of the Dharmakaya"

 

Seems like the title hints at metta, but would you consider this the proper text for study? :

 

http://korat.ibc.ac.th/files/private/Heart%20Drops%20of%20Dharmakaya%20Dzogchen%20Practice%20of%20the%20Bon%20Tradition.pdf

In Dzogchen, bodhicitta is already present as the compassion/energy of the basis.

 

 

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence

of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have

been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature

of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to

try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?

 

Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,

temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like

pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.

Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it

has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized

by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of

compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the

actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are

one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,

or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them

because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,

but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and

consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love

feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there

is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this

is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be

interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow

again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will

always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love

others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind

becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is

happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.

I don't know who translated this. Garchen Rinpoche doesn't speak English.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Jax]

The Dzogchen lineages of the Nyingmapas (e.g Longchen Nyingthik) and Bonpos (e.g Zhang Zhung Nyengyud) have preliminaries....So it's not like Dzogchen doesn't have these sort of things.

 

Your emphasis on 'direct introduction,' a la Neo-Advaita satsangs: Just isn't adequate for most people.

 

 

 

 

The other way must not be adequate either, because no one is becoming enlightened... or a very, very few.

[Jax]

The other way must not be adequate either, because no one is becoming enlightened... or a very, very few.

Realization has no need of preparation because your nature has never not been perfect.

[Jax]

 

Not according to Longchenpa.

You are most wrong. Lonchenpa happens to be my best topic of knowledge. I would be glad to point you in the right direction. The Zhi as base is kadag, everthing is the expression (rigpa i'tsal) of that pure Base, even samsara and ego. Read the 6 Vajra Verses and Norbu's commentary "Rigpa Khujug". This notion of the pure Base, Kuntuzangpo, (Samantabhadra), is essential to the notion of self-liberation and all Dzogchen view...

[Jax]

In Dzogchen, bodhicitta is already present as the compassion/energy of the basis.

 

 

I don't know who translated this. Garchen Rinpoche doesn't speak English.

The title has nothing to do with "heart drops" being compassion. It refers to "Nying Thig" teachings. The tranlation is not so good in the title.

[ralis]

Jax,

 

I have broached this issue before in regards to Dzogchen and it's practicality for everyday life. Intuition, resourcefulness, creativity and having insight in everyday relations, whether it be in personal relationships or business communications, contract negotiations are what I consider grounded activities and I am not certain how Dzogchen really applies. Honestly, in general, I just don't see it in the Buddhist community. Day trading the markets or even being involved in a poker game are just two examples that apply to ordinary life and I am not certain if Dzogchen would make one a better trader or even poker player.

Edited March 12, 2013 by ralis

[themiddleway]

Hi

I believe that the presentation of Dzogchen teachings will evolve in the West. The assimilation of Vajrayana in Tibet did not happen over night, so we should expect some teething problems with how these teachings are integrated into Western cultures.

 

According to the Tibetan hagiography Guru Padmasambhava had to ‘subdue the demonic forces of pre-Buddhist Tibet’ before the Vajrayana teachings could take root there. The Western demon is Wall-mart and dogmatic materialism.

 

As practitioners we have to be careful about bringing our own cultural biases to Dzogchen and how the teachings should be preserved and transmitted. What often gets overlooked in the verbal wank over semantics is that Dzogchen is a teaching based on relationships. Principally between you, the Guru and the sangha. Its no secret that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu’s organisation is called the ‘Dzogchen Community’.

 

I would recommend before anyone jumps into any syllabus to read Norbu’s 'The Crystal and the Way of Light'. Rinpoche has already broken from tradition by presenting these teachings so openly.

[RongzomFan]

Rinpoche has already broken from tradition by presenting these teachings so openly

 

ChNN is teaching from his own terma, not the LN or DT.

 

His terma doesn't require ngondro in the first place.

 

The same was the case with others, such as KDL.

Edited March 12, 2013 by alwayson

[ralis]

Hi

I believe that the presentation of Dzogchen teachings will evolve in the West. The assimilation of Vajrayana in Tibet did not happen over night, so we should expect some teething problems with how these teachings are integrated into Western cultures.

 

According to the Tibetan hagiography Guru Padmasambhava had to ‘subdue the demonic forces of pre-Buddhist Tibet’ before the Vajrayana teachings could take root there. The Western demon is Wall-mart and dogmatic materialism.

 

As practitioners we have to be careful about bringing our own cultural biases to Dzogchen and how the teachings should be preserved and transmitted. What often gets overlooked in the verbal wank over semantics is that Dzogchen is a teaching based on relationships. Principally between you, the Guru and the sangha. Its no secret that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu’s organisation is called the ‘Dzogchen Community’.

 

I would recommend before anyone jumps into any syllabus to read Norbu’s 'The Crystal and the Way of Light'. Rinpoche has already broken from tradition by presenting these teachings so openly.

 

 

Read it 25 years ago.