Dzogchen Teachings

[ralis]

Are you aware of the doctrine of Papal infallibility?

 

You are changing the subject at hand.

[RongzomFan]

I've got nothing more to say, then to say its a matter of religious faith.

 

There is nothing in Dzogchen that is rational.

 

Terma and rainbow body are not rational.

[ralis]

I've got nothing more to say, then to say its a matter of religious faith.

 

There is nothing in Dzogchen that is rational.

 

Terma and rainbow body are not rational.

 

If you want to be a faith based religious ideologue fine but to confuse that with claiming infallibility/fallibility, will be challenged.

Edited March 16, 2013 by ralis

[RongzomFan]

If you want to be a faith based religious ideologue fine but to confuse that with with claiming infallibility/fallibility, will be challenged.

 

Muslims believe in Mohammed being infallible.

[ralis]

Muslims believe in Mohammed being infallible.

 

You are off topic again. This thread is in regards to Dzogchen.

[Mandrake]

Alwayson:

The constant Chinese Communist propaganda of you and Mandrake calling us "archaic" and "primitive" is getting tiring.

 

The problem with the communist ideology is that in practice it has been opposed to questioning. A characteristic of totalitarian structures is that they shun opposition and open testing of its tenets.

Furthermore, pointing out the inherent dangers of unfounded belief is not the sole monopoly of communism (where did you get that from?); it was one of the main tracks of the philosophers of the 18th century philosophers onwards, and in turn led the western states to much more freedom from oppression - for example religious one, allowing both you and I to practice eastern methods.

 

 

All the best

M

[Mandrake]

Alwayson:

I've got nothing more to say, then to say its a matter of religious faith.

 

There is nothing in Dzogchen that is rational.

 

Terma and rainbow body are not rational.

 

I would disagree: There is a rational methodology to everything in Dzogchen from when you approach it because you want to get rid of you afflictions and increase your positive qualities, to the methods employed and the result. If there was no rationale, then why employ specific channels and points in longde and Thödgäl? if drinking coffee with extra sugar could induce the fourth vision, then we would be doing that instead.

To be rational is to reason, and the tantras do that to a large extent. Kunjed Gyalpo has expositions on why the lower vehicles are lacking, just to name one. Resting in rigpa does not mean that the faculty of logic is obliterated!

 

 

Mandrake

[ralis]

Ignorance which produces diluted teachings of thogal, such as those of Rob and Rachel Old (http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3351&start=100.) They're a couple who spent 9 years of (semi-traditional) retreat together under the guidance of Lama Drimed Norbu. Their Lama has confirmed completion of the first vision, but they went on to claiming completion of all 4 visions (which are quite ridiculous claims.) They broke ties with the lineage after some disagreements and created their own quasi-religion based off of their experiences.

 

This just goes to show (again,) that even with these 'super-secret' methods, there is no guarantee that someone will have high realizations (with or without the guidance of a teacher.) IMO, some people think that they will easily achieve the level of a mahasiddha, if they learn some secret esoteric methods. In this modern age, with its desire for instant gratification: People are enamored when they hear of these type of things; thinking that these methods will guarantee instantaneous enlightenment in a short time period without any effort....This sort of mentality has allowed people like the Old's to dilute these teachings into a commodity to fulfill peoples fascination with the "exotic and mysterious world of esoterica."

 

 

These people have made their experience into a commodity and the Lama's don't? It seems to me that all of this is regards to subjective experience and the Lama hierarchy is capitalizing on it. Expensive teachings along with the appropriate paraphernalia and for the well heeled consumers, spending months in India, Nepal or Bhutan taking extensive empowerment's. Restricting teachings which makes such teachings scarce which is marketing at it's finest.

 

Trungpa characterized this as 'spiritual materialism'.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Through-Spiritual-Materialism-Shambhala/dp/1590306392/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1363548417&sr=8-2&keywords=trungpa

[Mandrake]

We have to keep in mind that there has been quite opposition to teaching Dzogchen openly; to this CHNN can attest. One of the characteristics of abiding in rigpa is that compassion pours out like a vast ocean (Alan Wallace mentions this I think in his Dzogchen retreat, CHNN speaks about this often). We definitely need this in this age of individualism and suffering in loneness! Happily enough, it seems that we are seeing a more wide promulgation of beneficial and practical teachings.

 

The lama/guru system isn't always comprehensive. An acquintance who has taken extensive teachings in tummo, told us how some lamas clearly had a very lacking understanding, but because of appearance they didn't want to ask others to fill it in. Pride definitely is there. Great teachers can be found in the most differing places and circumstances, and should definitely be sought out. One of the things we should consider is if this world really has time for unfounded secrecy and cultural ritualism.

 

 

Mandrake

 

 

Mandrake

[Simple_Jack]

We have to keep in mind that there has been quite opposition to teaching Dzogchen openly

It's not just Dzogchen that has been taught very openly compared to how it was presented traditionally....Mahamudra, HYT and many other practices are given out, that otherwise wouldn't have been done so freely not too long ago.

[RongzomFan]

An acquintance who has taken extensive teachings in tummo, told us how some lamas clearly had a very lacking understanding

 

What do you mean by "extensive teachings in tummo"?

 

Are you talking about genuine teachings, or some New Age reiki tummo?

 

And what is the lack of understanding?

[ralis]

I actually haven't read that book, but that phrase is thrown around a lot. At least, there are some teachers who are upfront about their coming to the West in order to raise funds for various projects in Tibet or wherever.

 

In the same way, we could ask if what Jax is doing is a form of 'spiritual materialism.' He's actively seeking students, has a web address, and is releasing an e-book. How is this not contributing to the commodifying of Dzogchen?

 

I just think that Dzogchen shouldn't be divorced from the framework of a lineage. I think, that it is because of an unbroken lineage of instruction and guidance from a genuinely qualified individual: We are able to have the teachings today in their present form. Otherwise, the teachings become diluted by losing the original intention and depth of realization that was preserved by the lineage of Dzogchen masters.

 

To treat Dzogchen or any other teaching as an absolute understanding of the cosmos is problematic.

[themiddleway]

Ignorance which produces diluted teachings of thogal, such as those of Rob and Rachel Old (http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3351&start=100.) They're a couple who spent 9 years of (semi-traditional) retreat together under the guidance of Lama Drimed Norbu. Their Lama has confirmed completion of the first vision, but they went on to claiming completion of all 4 visions (which are quite ridiculous claims.) They broke ties with the lineage after some disagreements and created their own quasi-religion based off of their experiences.

 

This just goes to show (again,) that even with these 'super-secret' methods, there is no guarantee that someone will have high realizations (with or without the guidance of a teacher.) IMO, some people think that they will easily achieve the level of a mahasiddha, if they learn some secret esoteric methods. In this modern age, with its desire for instant gratification: People are enamored when they hear of these type of things; thinking that these methods will guarantee instantaneous enlightenment in a short time period without any effort....This sort of mentality has allowed people like the Old's to dilute these teachings into a commodity to fulfill peoples fascination with the "exotic and mysterious world of esoterica."

 

 

Exactly. Super secret teachings can become fodder for the ego and not about integrating with the state of the Guru.

If people start blending Dzogchen methods with other systems, we could have our own Western version of Dorje Shugden.

[themiddleway]

I agree that there are very few realized Lamas.

 

 

CHNN has said beware of false reincarnations, stating that within Tibet most of the Tulkus were recognized to perpetuate the power monopoly of the monasteries. The Dalai Lama and Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche have both been critical of the politics within Tibetan Buddhism. So its not like Lamas are ignoring the problems within their own system.

 

 

I think most people are educated enough about pre-modern Tibet and understand it wasn’t a spiritual paradise, CHNN has openly said that he was beaten in his monastery.

 

 

But Tibetans still preserved these teachings and produced realised beings right up to the occupation of Tibet by China. The Chinese actively tried to murder Dzogchen yogis, some of whom couldn’t be killed. You can argue all you want about the conditions in pre-modern Tibet but if the Chinese had their way the Dzogchen lineage would have been destroyed.

 

 

Tibetan Lamas like CHNN are very rare, if you want Dzogchen teachings you go to people who have realized it, can teach it and have generously shared it with the West. There is no guarantee that meeting one on one with a teacher will work. But there is a guarantee that if you make contact with a realized being you will eventually liberate.

 

 

Individuals who have quickly understood Rigpa should be teaching within CHNN organisation and benefiting other practitioners. I think it’s really dangerous and arrogant to start your own pseudo- Dzogchen club. If Rinpoche introduced you to the natural state through oral transmission the least you could do is GIVE BACK and help with the transmission of Dzogchen around the world.

 

 

Picking holes in Lamas, Tibet and other cultures is ignoring their generosity in blessing our mind streams. Its inevitable that Dzogchen will take on a Western form but its not inevitable that Dzogchen will be preserved if we attack the core of the teaching; who is the Guru and who are the students.

[RongzomFan]

I agree that there are very few realized Lamas.

 

Of course most lamas have not realized Buddhahood. Thats why there are lineages in the first place i.e. to trace back to an individual who was a Buddha.

 

false reincarnations

 

Are you one of those people who think that tulkus are the literal reincarnations of the last guy?

 

As long as a tulku has received the full teachings and lineage, the dude is a lama.

Edited March 18, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Tibetan Lamas like CHNN are very rare, if you want Dzogchen teachings you go to people who have realized it, can teach it and have generously shared it with the West. There is no guarantee that meeting one on one with a teacher will work. But there is a guarantee that if you make contact with a realized being you will eventually liberate.

 

ChNN is great.

 

But any lineage holder is fine.

[themiddleway]

ChNN is great.

 

But any lineage holder is fine.

 

 

In the strictest Dzogchen sense, you have to have an existing karmaric connection with the lineage. Settling on a teacher could mean anything from being a student in a past life, being eaten in a puja or the other unfathomable methods that Buddha’s use to tame beings.

Only an awakened teacher can awaken students.

The activities of Lamas like CHNN in spreading teachings are an example of bodhicitta or a bodhisattva churning the lower worlds to liberate beings.

Long life to the masters!

[Jetsun]

ChNN is great. But any lineage holder is fine.

There are many other lamas apart from CHNN, the way people talk about him on many of these Buddhist boards its like he's the only one out there, its very strange, sometimes they even just call him Rinpoche like we are supposed to just know which Rinpoche they are talking about. For example Tsoknyi Rinpoche travels and teaches around the world every year, his father was Tulku Urgen Rinpoche and had personal instruction from him since he was a young child as well as personal tutorage from many of the other great lamas such as Dilgo Khyentse and Adeu Rinpoche, but he's not offering mass easy access Skype transmissions so he is largely ignored.

[C T]

There are many other lamas apart from CHNN, the way people talk about him on many of these Buddhist boards its like he's the only one out there, its very strange, sometimes they even just call him Rinpoche like we are supposed to just know which Rinpoche they are talking about.

i was also thinking the same thing yesterday...

[Ish]

There are many other lamas apart from CHNN, the way people talk about him on many of these Buddhist boards its like he's the only one out there, its very strange, sometimes they even just call him Rinpoche like we are supposed to just know which Rinpoche they are talking about. For example Tsoknyi Rinpoche travels and teaches around the world every year, his father was Tulku Urgen Rinpoche and had personal instruction from him since he was a young child as well as personal tutorage from many of the other great lamas such as Dilgo Khyentse and Adeu Rinpoche, but he's not offering mass easy access Skype transmissions so he is largely ignored.

 

Yeah i think it is due to his accessibility that we mostly hear about Rinpoche ( ) . Of course there are other great Lamas out there but English speaking, openly teaching Dzogchen and the accessibilty through webcast is very very helpful.

[Simple_Jack]

Okay, but the "Rainbow Body," represents a specific realization, that doesn't necessarily correlate to the physical signs at the time of death. This has to do with the end of the four visions.

 

I posted in another thread, other parts of Malcolms posts from DW, where he correctly explains what the "body of light" really means in Dzogchen:

 

 

Malcolm: "KDL went though all four visions to the end. He told me this personally. Not only me, but others. He did realize rainbow body. Rainbow body, in Dzogchen, does not mean that your body disappears. This is a huge misconception....it is stupidly simple -- once you reach the end of the fourth vision, everything is a display of the five lights, as it is put in the classical text earth, rocks, mountains and cliffs vanish and instead one sees only the five pure lights.....In other words, rainbow body in essence is actually a realization...."

 

...

 

"No, but I have heard (from ChNN among others) that the disappearance of the body is not necessarily a sign of the body of light.

 

Hindus also gain control over the four elements, also Arhats can gain control over the four elements. Gaining control over the four elements is mundane siddhi, it is not excellent siddhi, nor is it reserved for Vajrayana and Dzogchen people. However, if someone has not studied in detail, they might think that many mundane siddhis are profound. So yes, what I am telling you is that I do not consider the so called rainbow body to much more than a display of mundane siddhi to create faith.

 

I am glad you have faith in the teachings, but as I said, I do not derive my faith in the teachings through illusions and phantasmagoria."

 

An account of Malcolms former teacher, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa Rinpoche, who he said reached buddhahood:

 

http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/terton-kunzang-dechen-lingpa-moving.html

 

"Later when Rinpoche was relaxing in a lawn chair, he said to a few students gathered around him: "You don't realize this, but I am actually Guru Rinpoche and you are his twenty-five disciples. I have reached the stage of exhaustion of phenomena (cho nyi zepa). In truth there is for me no form, no sensation, no perception, no karmic formation, no consciousness, no form, no smell, no sense consciousness or object of sense consciousness and so forth; there is no self or other and no distinction of 'Buddhas' and 'sentient beings'; everything remains in the naturally perfect state of pure equality. From the depths of my heart I wish there were some way you could all be made to understand the truth in this, but you do not see it."

 

Then Rinpoche went silent and tears fell from his eyes."

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Mandrake]

This seems suspicious because in order to even be given the title of 'Lama' an individual has to have done a minimum of 3 years, 3 weeks, 3 days of retreat. Even then, it's the retreat master who decides whether the person is recognized as having the accomplishment to receive the title.

 

Tummo and other completion stage practices would of definitely been practiced within a certain period of the retreat(s.) What lineage do these 'Lamas' belong to?

Simple_Jack:

 

May I pose a counterquestion: Do you recommend people to put their experience before idealized narratives of how things should be?

[Mandrake]

To treat Dzogchen or any other teaching as an absolute understanding of the cosmos is problematic.

Ralis:

 

You raised a most important point that evidently eluded everyone.

 

 

Mandrake

[Mandrake]

I agree that there are very few realized Lamas.

 

 

CHNN has said beware of false reincarnations, stating that within Tibet most of the Tulkus were recognized to perpetuate the power monopoly of the monasteries. The Dalai Lama and Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche have both been critical of the politics within Tibetan Buddhism. So its not like Lamas are ignoring the problems within their own system.

 

 

I think most people are educated enough about pre-modern Tibet and understand it wasn’t a spiritual paradise, CHNN has openly said that he was beaten in his monastery.

 

 

But Tibetans still preserved these teachings and produced realised beings right up to the occupation of Tibet by China. The Chinese actively tried to murder Dzogchen yogis, some of whom couldn’t be killed. You can argue all you want about the conditions in pre-modern Tibet but if the Chinese had their way the Dzogchen lineage would have been destroyed.

 

 

Tibetan Lamas like CHNN are very rare, if you want Dzogchen teachings you go to people who have realized it, can teach it and have generously shared it with the West. There is no guarantee that meeting one on one with a teacher will work. But there is a guarantee that if you make contact with a realized being you will eventually liberate.

 

 

Individuals who have quickly understood Rigpa should be teaching within CHNN organisation and benefiting other practitioners. I think it’s really dangerous and arrogant to start your own pseudo- Dzogchen club. If Rinpoche introduced you to the natural state through oral transmission the least you could do is GIVE BACK and help with the transmission of Dzogchen around the world.

 

 

Picking holes in Lamas, Tibet and other cultures is ignoring their generosity in blessing our mind streams. Its inevitable that Dzogchen will take on a Western form but its not inevitable that Dzogchen will be preserved if we attack the core of the teaching; who is the Guru and who are the students.

 

There have been quite some strange offshoots in this thread. Somebody brough in communism, somebody chinese invasion of Tibet, exoneration of the old hierarchy since it succesfully preserved teachings (which the old catholic monasticism also did in a degree), others spoke about the value of gurus etc.

Are people so fainthearted that they confuse criticism with downright dismissal of the imperfect concepts? I think this does major damage in the long run since the people who are capable of finding solutions will cloak the pressing spiritual issues relevant to this point in time.

 

Nobody denies that we need realized people, high in virtue and with eminent pedagogical skills. Nobody denies that we need some kind of social institutions and framework for passing on both the skills and theories of cultivation as intact as possible. Nobody thinks that Tibet should be invaded etc. However, there should not be a naive reading and adaption of cultural ethos and behaviour, adopting an expression that was never natural for our own culture, and dismissing the sophistication and accomplishments of our own philosophies.

 

 

Mandrake

[Mandrake]

Not really.

I read your reply, and I can't see how it answers what ralis pointed out.