Dzogchen Teachings

[RongzomFan]

This is not to say that peaceful and wrathfulls are cultural baggage. Indeed even the most New Age oriented people will experience classical grecoBuddhist seated Buddhas and peaceful and wrathful deities spontaneously if they are further down the path.....

[Mandrake]

This is not to say that peaceful and wrathfulls are cultural baggage. Indeed even the most New Age oriented people will experience classical grecoBuddhist seated Buddhas and peaceful and wrathful deities spontaneously if they are further down the path.....

How do you know this?

[Jeff]

This is not to say that peaceful and wrathfulls are cultural baggage. Indeed even the most New Age oriented people will experience classical grecoBuddhist seated Buddhas and peaceful and wrathful deities spontaneously if they are further down the path.....

Have you experienced deities?

 

Thanks, Jeff

[RongzomFan]

No

[Tibetan_Ice]

if you can provide evidence that clear light has anything to do with luminosity that would be more appropriate.

 

clear light is not samboghakaya.

 

Wrong again.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambhogak%C4%81ya

 

 

Access by advanced practitioners

Sambhogakaya also refers to the luminous form of clear light the Buddhist practitioner attains upon the reaching the highest dimensions of practice.

 

 

 

http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/buddhism/cul/cul02.php

 

These various experiences of the mind are also related to the Sambhogakaya aspect which may manifest from the nondifferentiated state of Dharmakaya as visions or visitations. For example, the Sambhogakaya manifested to the great teacher Naropa one day while he was going for a walk. As he was strolling along, Naropa bumped into the ugliest looking woman he had ever seen. She said to him, "Eh, what do you know about Buddhism?" He replied "I know quite a lot because I am a professor at Nalanda University. At that the ugly woman started to sing and dance, and Naropa was a bit puzzled. Then she asked him, "Well, do you know the meaning of the teachings?" Naropa quickly replied, "Yes," but when he said this the woman started to cry. Then something clicked, and Naropa realized that so far all that he understood was purely intellectual and conceptual, and he had completely forgotten to tune into his more intuitive aspects.

Naropa's vision of the ugly woman was, in a sense, a symbolic calling from the Sambhogakaya, some kind of revelatory experience, and one can have varieties of such experiences in terms of Sambhogakaya. It is said that the Sambhogakaya communicates in symbolic language. It manifests in such a way that one understands it not through words, descriptions, and explanations, but through a more intuitive response to one's experiences.

Visions and dreams--all of these--are part of that whole symbolic language of Sambhogakaya manifestation. For this reason, working with one's mind in relation to visualizations, deities, utterance of mantras, and so on, are ways to invoke the Sambhogakaya energy. If one is successful with this, then one can have different kinds of visions.

 

And here is more from Tenzin Wangyal:

 

http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/buddhahood.html

 

MAHAYANA VIEW:

. But the manifestation of the Buddha's Energy (thugs rje) is the Sambhogakaya in a purified form of light and energy. It is something visible.

 

DZOGCHEN VIEW:

This method is only found in Dzogchen and not in the other vehicles. Here the Sambhogakaya is not caused by something else other than itself such as a vow or Dzogrim practice. It is a spontaneously self-perfected manifestation (Ihun grub). But in terms of our experience it is a visible thing and like all visible things it is changeable and impermanent. Therefore a Rupakaya is always impermanent. It does not just sit on a throne in the sky throughout eternity unchanged century after century.

[RongzomFan]

You are free to argue with konchog uma.

 

But citing Wikipedia for Buddhist info is a joke. Especially unreferenced sentences. Especially an article tagged at the top. And especially declaring "Wrong again" on top of all that.

[hydrogen]

. At the time of death, when the sounds, forms, lights and especially the appearances of the peaceful and wrathful deities of the bardo of dharmata dawn,

 

What happens to a person if he's experienced these while he's alive and come back alive? Thanks.

[Tibetan_Ice]

At this time the elements of the body proceed into their natural purity, and the material body is actually liberated in its own state. To the degree that there may still be the appearances of impurities-of the contaminated aggregates, of flesh, bone, and so forth-these are transformed into clear light. You are now free of all conceptual grasping; even grasping onto your own form as the sambhogakaya is naturally released into its own state. There are no concepts. You no longer think, "This is the sambhogakaya, this is the nirrnanakaya, this is a spiritual mentor, this is a monk wearing robes." This state is nakedly realized without any meditation, completely free of any type of conceptual constructs. -

Karma Chagme. Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2318-2322). Kindle Edition.

 

The sambhogakaya is that dimension in which the potentialities of sound, light, and rays (sgra, 'od, :er), the three fundamental sources of manifestation, appear as the pure vision of the mandala, the origin of the tantric teachings. The books called "tantras," that contain the revelations of these manifestations, constitute the testimony of teachers who had direct contact with the sambhogakaya and only later put it in writing.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Andriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra Of Dzogchen Semde Kunjed Gyalpo (Kindle Locations 974-977). Kindle Edition.

 

The concept of blending with the three kayas is first introduced during the generation stage practice, in which one meditates upon oneself as a tantric deity dwelling at the center of the supporting mandala. Here one engages in the process known as "taking the three kayas as the path" (Tib. sku gsum lam 'khyer), which refers to three steps in meditation: (1) the visualization that the world and its inhabitants dissolve into one's body, and then the coarse energies withdraw from within one's body, just as at the time of death, until the clear light mind arises, which is known as "taking death as the Dharmakaya"; (2) the visualization that one arises from the clear light in a pure energy form, which is the practice of taking the bardo experience as the Sambhogakaya; and (3) the visualization that one arises as the Mandala Lord, which is the process of taking rebirth as the Nirmanakaya. This generation stage meditation is performed daily by all serious initiates, and in the Six Yogas system sets the stage for the completion stage trainings of the "three blendings."

Tsong-Kha-Pa. The Six Yogas Of Naropa: Tsongkhapa's Commentary Entitled A Book Of Three Inspirations: A Treatise On The Stages Of Training In The Profound Path Of Naro's Six Dharmas (Kindle Locations 365-371). Kindle Edition.

 

All the signs of the dissolution process occur, from "earth into water," until the emergence of the clear light. The four emptinesses emerge in the nature of the four blisses. At the same time as the clear light occurs, the yogi engages in meditation on ecstasy conjoined with [the wisdom of] emptiness. This is the process known as "blending with Dharmakaya in sleep."

 

When the time comes to arise from that clear light one generates the resolution to arise with a dream body by setting aside the body of the old aggregates and taking the form of a Buddha Vajradhara, male and female in union. Then when one emerges from the clear light [of sleep] the dream body appears, not as the body of the old aggregates, but rather as a Buddha Vajradhara, male and female in union. This is what is known as "blending with Sambhogakaya in dreams."

 

One focuses one's absorption on the meditations of the transformative processes of that Sambhogakaya. When the time comes to awaken from sleep, one does so by emerging with one's old aggregates envisioned as the Symbolic Being, and with the Wisdom Being at one's heart. This is the process known as "blending with Nirmanakaya while awakening."

 

Simultaneous to this, as the air begins to flow through the nostrils and the five sensory consciousnesses revive, whatever appearances occur are seen as emptiness, emptiness as ecstasy, and ecstasy as the mandala deities. This is the practice to be cultivated in the post-meditation sessions.

 

Thirdly Gyalwa Wensapa speaks of how the three blendings are engaged at the time of death and in the bardo,

 

The yogi who is not able to accomplish the realizations of the highest stage before the time of death should cultivate the resolution to apply the technology for retaining the clear light of death, arising in the Sambhogakaya in the bardo, and taking birth with the incarnation of a tantric master, a mantracharyin. Then as the actual moment of death draws near one should meditate on the channels, energies, chakras and so forth as above, and meditate upon the blazing and melting. This causes the vital energies to enter into the central channel, and to abide and dissolve, giving rise to the signs of the dissolutions, until the signs of the clear light occur. As the clear light of death emerges one focuses in meditation upon emptiness. This is the process known as "blending with Dharmakaya at death."

 

When the time comes to arise from the clear light one arouses the instinct to set aside the old aggregates and, in taking a bardo body, to arise in the form of a Buddha Vajradhara, male and female in union. Then as one emerges from the clear light the image of the bardo body arises, with the old aggregates set aside, and appearing as Buddha Vajradhara, male and female in union. Simultaneously the signs of the dissolution process manifest in reverse, as consciousness reverses through the stages of clear light to proximate attainment, and so forth, until the vision of the mirage. This is the process known as "blending with Sambhogakaya in the bardo." One remains focused on the stages of absorption in the meditations of the Sambhogakaya transformations. Then when the wish to take rebirth begins to crystallize, one seeks a suitable genetic environment in the white and red drops [i.e., the fertilized egg] of one's future parents, in order to achieve rebirth as the special body-vessel of a mantracharyin. This is the process known as "blending with Nirmanakaya at rebirth."

 

Tsong-Kha-Pa. The Six Yogas Of Naropa: Tsongkhapa's Commentary Entitled A Book Of Three Inspirations: A Treatise On The Stages Of Training In The Profound Path Of Naro's Six Dharmas (Kindle Locations 409-429). Kindle Edition.

 

 

The manifestation of the Sambhogakaya comes about through three factors: sound, light, and rays. Sound is the first stage of the manifestation of energy, which, in the dimension of manifestation, is perceived as mantra. This type of mantra, called the "Natural Sound of the Vajra" since it arises spontaneously, is used in practice to integrate the visualization (of the mandala of the divinity) with the function of one's own energy. Light, the second stage of manifestation, is the visible aspect of energy, energy still in a phase prior to its assuming any specific form. And then, thirdly, through the rays manifest all the infinite forms and colours of the mandala of the divinity. Every individual potentially possesses these three aspects of manifestation.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (p. 46). Kindle Edition.

 

The Body of Light is the supreme realization of Dzogchen. Its function is different from that of a Sambhogakaya manifestation, because a being in a Body of Light can communicate and actively help other beings. It is as if the physical body, its material substance having been absorbed into its luminous essence, continues to live as an aggregation of the elements in their subtle aspect. Manifestations of the Sambhogakaya, on the other hand, are passive, because they depend on the beings who enjoy the vision of them.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (p. 71). Kindle Edition.

 

THE BARDO OF DHARMATA While the ground luminosity represents the dawning of the dharmakaya, ultimate emptiness, the arising of the bardo of dharmata represents the appearance of the sambhogakaya. In reference to this, Chökyi Nyima remarks, “A distinction should be made here between the dharmakaya luminosity [of the ground luminosity] and the sambhogakaya luminosity [of the bardo of dharmata]. If we do not recognize dharmakaya or ground luminosity at the close of the bardo of dying, the luminous bardo of dharmata offers us a second chance to attain liberation through the appearance of sambhogakaya luminosity.”37

 

In the bardo of dharmata, Sogyal Rinpoche writes, “now gradually the sun of dharmata begins to rise in all its splendor, illuminating the contours of the land in all directions. The natural radiance of Rigpa manifests spontaneously and blazes out as energy and light.”38 The experience of ground luminosity is all-pervading space of dharmakaya, the ultimate emptiness and purity of mind. The experience of the dharmata is that of the luminous radiance of mind of the sambhogakaya. “Just as the sun rising in that clear and empty sky, the luminous appearance of the bardo of dharmata [sambhogakaya] will all arise from the all-pervading space of the ground luminosity [dharmakaya]. The name we give to this display of sound, light, and color is ‘spontaneous presence,’ for it is always and inherently present within the expanse of ‘primordial purity,’ which is its ground.”39 In the bardo of dharmata, then, the mind is unfolding, gradually becoming more and more manifest. “For it is through this dimension of light and energy that mind unfolds from its purest state, the Ground Luminosity, toward its manifestation as form in the next bardo, the bardo of becoming.”40 As in the case of the dawning of the ground luminosity, so for the bardo of dharmata, Tibetan tradition describes two ways in which the yogin can attain liberation, and these are prepared for by two different sorts of training: (1) the dzokchen practice of thögal and (2) the practice of meditation on the yidam.

Ray, Reginald A. (2012-12-18). Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet (Kindle Locations 5290-5308). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You are free to argue with konchog uma.

 

But citing Wikipedia for Buddhist info is a joke. Especially unreferenced sentences. Especially an article tagged at the top. And especially declaring "Wrong again" on top of all that.

NOT WORTH THE EFFORT

Edited March 29, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

What does that even mean?

 

In trekcho, you either recognize unfabricated presence vs the conceptualizing mind.

 

Or you don't.

Vs. ?

 

There is no 'vs.'

 

Some things are not within your scope of understanding.

[C T]

What happens to a person if he's experienced these while he's alive and come back alive? Thanks.

Its very hard to pinpoint exactly what happens, considering the vast number of variable factors at play. Speculations can be so rife, but the advice given is not to get carried away with them but focus on one's practice instead, constantly returning to the remembrance of one's stainless true mind, and resting in that.

[konchog uma]

the only thing clear light has to do with luminosity is as metaphor for nondual awareness which cuts through the darkness of ignorance.

 

TI youre welcome to believe wikipedia lol, and think whatever you want about clear light. There was one sentence about clear light being sambhogakaya on wikipedia, and the rest of your argument was predicated on that false assumption, failing to make that connection in the words of actual teachers, just saying how sambhogakaya includes a spectrum of manifestations, some of them visible.

 

I would rather just let you believe whatever you want. Clear light isn't sambhogakaya according to what i have learned from teachers, and if it is to you based on what you learned on wikipedia, more power to you!!

[RongzomFan]

Vs. ?

 

There is no 'vs.'

 

Have you heard of distinguishing rigpa from sems?

 

Have you heard of the mirror/crystal ball metaphor where you distinguish reflections from the mirror?

[konchog uma]

Truth is where you find it.

 

unless you're using wikipedia lol

[hydrogen]

Its very hard to pinpoint exactly what happens, considering the vast number of variable factors at play. Speculations can be so rife, but the advice given is not to get carried away with them but focus on one's practice instead, constantly returning to the remembrance of one's stainless true mind, and resting in that.

Thank you.

 

The ture mind is too fragile and loving. It can't function in the current society I've been partially responsible for.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[Tibetan_Ice]

the only thing clear light has to do with luminosity is as metaphor for nondual awareness which cuts through the darkness of ignorance.

 

TI youre welcome to believe wikipedia lol, and think whatever you want about clear light. There was one sentence about clear light being sambhogakaya on wikipedia, and the rest of your argument was predicated on that false assumption, failing to make that connection in the words of actual teachers, just saying how sambhogakaya includes a spectrum of manifestations, some of them visible.

 

I would rather just let you believe whatever you want. Clear light isn't sambhogakaya according to what i have learned from teachers, and if it is to you based on what you learned on wikipedia, more power to you!!

 

Gee, I went to allot of trouble to look up sambhogakaya and clear light in all those books, and they are saying basically the same thing.

 

You must have missed that. Instead, you prefer to ankle bite.

 

See:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27366-dzogchen-teachings/?p=417913

 

You seem to have a dependancy on teachers or authority figures..

 

Perhaps you also missed the post about Master Nan Huai Chin letter, wherein he said:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26671-master-nan-huai-chin-dead-at-94/?p=417647

 

You want help from other people? Help yourself! If you really believe in cause and effect, start by using proper motivation and personal inspection is the intelligent way to begin. This is cultivation's heart. Your eyes are always looking outward, blaming heaven and earth, relying on gurus and saints and teachers to worship. This is self-deception and playing a joke on the world.

[Simple_Jack]

Perhaps you also missed the post about Master Nan Huai Chin letter, wherein he said:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26671-master-nan-huai-chin-dead-at-94/?p=417647

....ehhhhh, I don't know if what he said in that letter can apply to everyone across the board....That was probably a response to a unique situation with certain individuals...

 

Supposedly from a young age he was brought up learning the Chinese classics. After his military career he set out for retreat and to study under various Buddhist and Daoist masters in the Emei mountains. Afterwards, he spent a number of years in the Himalayas learning Vajrayana from various masters....This is definitely contradictory to what he said in his letter...

[konchog uma]

You seem to have a dependancy on teachers or authority figures.

 

a love of accurate information would be the correct way to say it.

 

it looks like you went through a lot of trouble (or at least plugged "clear light sambhogakaya" into a search engine or two) for not much reward... none of those quotes really says that the clear light is another name for the sambhogakaya. There are some instances of them being used in the same sentence, but nothing except wikipedia saying that they are the same. I'm not convinced, and as my teachers and authority figures have told me otherwise, i think i will depend on them for accuracy instead of looking to the internet for it.

 

ankle biting? please... is that when someone tries to point out accurate information in the face of error, and calls to light another users ignonance? or just when someone disagrees with you personally? why don't you save the personal attacks for people who are moved by such things, and instead, just provide the requested evidence that clear light and sambhogakaya are one and the same thing?

Edited March 28, 2013 by konchog uma

[Tibetan_Ice]

a love of accurate information would be the correct way to say it.

 

it looks like you went through a lot of trouble (or at least plugged "clear light sambhogakaya" into a search engine or two) for not much reward... none of those quotes really says that the clear light is another name for the sambhogakaya. There are some instances of them being used in the same sentence, but nothing except wikipedia saying that they are the same. I'm not convinced, and as my teachers and authority figures have told me otherwise, i think i will depend on them for accuracy instead of looking to the internet for it.

 

ankle biting? please... is that when someone tries to point out accurate information in the face of error, and calls to light another users ignonance? or just when someone disagrees with you personally? why don't you save the personal attacks for people who are moved by such things, and instead, just provide the requested evidence that clear light and sambhogakaya are one and the same thing?

 

Maybe that is your problem. You have difficulty reading and understanding what you are reading.

 

The second batch of quotes were not generated by using a search engine. They are all from hard copy books which I own and have read and then purchased on Kindle to save me some typing. Each one of those quotes shows the reference to the source in them. You should have seen them if you had bothered to read them. They are from very authoritative figures in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra lines.

 

Further, I never said that sambhogakaya is the same thing as clear light. My posts were exemplifying that the sambhogakaya is luminous. The Sambhogakaya is luminous. Physical light. The Sambhogakaya is the rainbow body. It eminates from the clear light. It can be seen. Adepts can manifest the rainbow body for normal people to see. Light.

 

In a way I am very greatful that you still don't get it. Because, I was searching some more on 'clear light' and I came across this passage from Tenzin Wangyal:

From the five pure lights of the natural mind arise The unchanging dimension of the body, The unceasing pure manifestation of speech, And the undiluted enlightened mind.

 

The Clear Light

 

The pure state of the mind, the base of Buddhahood, has a quality of clear light, which develops into the pure light of the natural state. This light is "rainbow light," not material light. It is the natural energy of the primordial state and the cause of samsara and nirvana. Through the movement of this pure light, which is the inner rigpa energy in the dimension of the primordial base, the five pure lights develop and begin to appear. This process is represented by the five-colored tigle that surrounds the white A and which symbolizes the primordial natural condition.

 

The pure lights of the five colors constitute the second step in the production of existence; they are the source of the five elements that are the underlying structure of both the external existence of the world and the internal existence of the individual. In seeing these, we perceive the elements in their gross form, but in reality the source of the elements is the pure light of the natural state.

 

The energy of the five pure lights arises in the primordial base and creates and gives substance to internal and external reality. In the mandala of the human body, this clear light energy resides in the heart, rises through the channels, and is projected through the eyes. It is the basis of all vision and moves from the inner to the outer dimension.

 

Tenzin Wangyal. Wonders Of The Natural Mind: The Essense Of Dzogchen In The Native Bon Tradition Of Tibet (Kindle Locations 1435-1444). Kindle Edition.

 

I've bolded the relevant part. This is the kati heart channel.

In my experience, the clear light that rises from the heart and out of the eyes is visible. And, you can even follow it back to the heart.

 

Actually, read this:

The empty essence of mind is Dharmakaya; The clear nature of mind is Sambhogakaya; The non-duality of mind is Nirmanakaya; The Trikaya Principle According to the Bon teachings, the bodies, or dimensions (Sanskrit trikaya), are Buddhahood itself. The three bodies are the Dharmakaya, which the Bon tradition translates into Tibetan as bon sku, the Body of Bon; the Sambhogakaya (rdzogs sku), the Body of Perfection; and the Nirmanakaya (sprul sku), the Body of Emanation or Manifestation. I will refer to them by their Sanskrit names with which readers are probably more familiar. The Dharmakaya is the emptiness of the natural state of reality; the Sambhogakaya is the clarity of the natural state; the Nirmanakaya is the movement of energy that arises from the inseparability of emptiness and clarity.

 

Emptiness is the essence of all existence; this is the kunzhi base, the pure presence of clarity in the empty, formless base. Its potential quality of uninterrupted manifestation is the Sambhogakaya; the inseparable state of formless space and clear presence gives rise to the uninterrupted manifestation that is the Nirmanakaya. However, each of the three kayas contains the aspects of the other kayas, so that emptiness has the aspects of clarity and movement, clarity has the aspects of emptiness and movement, and movement has the aspects of emptiness and clarity.

 

The dimension or "castle" of the Dharmakaya is the all-pervading base where primordial awareness is spontaneously self-perfected. According to an explanation that is unique to the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud, in the heart there is pure emptiness, which is the Dharmakaya; this generates light which is the Sambhogakaya and this light is communicated to the eyes; the inseparability of the emptiness in the heart and the light generated in the heart is the Nirmanakaya, the dimension of manifestation, so that the light projected through the eyes (and the other senses) manifests as the three great visions, the sound, light, and rays. In fact, the sound, light, and rays are perfected as the three kayas.

 

The Dharmakaya is the spontaneously self-perfected primordial awareness that resides in the empty space element in the heart. The Sambhogakaya is the potential quality of manifestation of movement of the sound, light, and rays spontaneously perfected in the empty space of the heart. There is a tendency towards dualism here and the Sambhogakaya is connected with individual reality. Another image from the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud is of a red stone covered by a crystal. The red stone stands for the heart and the crystal for the flesh and fat of the human body. This indicates that the light resides in the physical heart, as explained in the "Five Lights." The Nirmanakaya is located in the three channels and the six chakras and, through the potential quality of movement, manifests externally through the five senses. The traditional symbol for individual realization is butter, which is latent in milk but which has to be churned in order to manifest. The nature of milk is the Dharmakaya, its potential for becoming butter is the Sambhogakaya, and the manifestation of the butter is the Nirmanakaya. Or, to use another analogy, we could say that space is the Dharmakaya, my hand is the Sambhogakaya, and the movement of my hand in space is the Nirmanakaya. If there were no space, there could be no hand, and if there were no hand, there could be no movement. Or again, the nature of an object such as a microphone is the Dharmakaya of the microphone, the material microphone itself is the Sambhogakaya, and its function is the Nirmanakaya. Thus it is important to understand that space has this potential quality to manifest the movement of the light, rays, and sound. According to Dzogchen, this movement is not created by the individual mind but is discovered and developed by it, and that it is through the development of this potentiality that realization is ultimately possible.

 

The omnipervasive Dharmakaya, the primordially empty natural state, is without dualism, like the cliab rig, the pervading awareness imbuing all existence; when it is connected with the individual dimension, it is Sambhogakaya; when these two are combined, when the primordial awareness resides in a physical body, it is the Nirmanakava. In fact, without a body, there could only be Dharmakaya and hence no Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya.

 

The Dharmakaya Buddha Kuntuzangpo represents the kunzhi, the base of everything. In that empty, formless space, there is the pure, clear presence that is the Sambhogakaya. In the inseparability of formless empty space and clear presence, movement arises. This is the Nirmanakaya. All existence, in the form of the three great visions, derives from the movement of energy in the Nirmanakaya dimension.

 

Tsal and the Trikaya

 

The three great visions or movements of energy can also be related to the trikaya principle within the individual. The Dharmakaya is the empty formless space that is the natural state of the mind without thoughts, the kunzhi or base of everything. The Sambhogakaya is the clear, spontaneous presence of rigpa in the empty, natural state of the mind, and the Nirmanakaya is the inseparability of formless empty space and clarity. This inseparability gives rise to the movement of energy in the form of thoughts. In the intermediate bardo state too, all the movements of mind arise in the form of the three great visions. Perceiving that these are our own manifestation is understanding and leads to nirvana; not perceiving it is delusion and leads back to samsara.

 

The Trikaya in the Individual

 

The three kayas are inherent in the self. They are self-perfected within our own nature they are not extraneous to us. In the physical body, the existence of the three channels and the six chakras as the base is the Dharmakaya. The actual channels and chakras are the Sambhogakaya and their functional manifestation is the Nirmanakaya. The primordially self-perfected and baseless self-presence is the Dharmakaya. The appearance of images (for example, during dark retreat) due to the relationship of body and mind is the Sambhogakaya, and the appearance of one's visualized body and all the actions performed through the visualization are the Nirmanakaya.

 

The three kayas are spontaneously self-perfected in the pure primordial state of the mind; they are already perfect in our own nature.

 

The three kayas can also be applied to the individual according to two other schemas. In the first, the kayos characterize the aspects of base, path, and result of the individual's work as a practitioner.

 

The Dharmakaya of the base is the principle of emptiness. The Sambhogakaya of the base is the principle of clarity or all-pervading awareness. The Nirmanakaya of the base is compassionate energy, the potentiality for manifestation that follows from emptiness and all pervading clarity's not being separate.

 

The Dharmakaya of the path is the process of development of the three kayas in actual practice on the path. The Sambhogakaya is the experience of the clarity that develops during that process. It is awareness in actual experiential events.

 

The Dharmakaya of the result is the actual condition of realization.

 

In the second schema, the three kayas are subdivided by themselves, so that we have three triplicities:

 

First Triplicity:

The emptiness of emptiness, or Dharmakaya of the Dharmakaya; The clarity of emptiness, or Sambhogakaya of the Dharmakaya;

 

The energy of emptiness, or Nirmanakaya of the Dharmakaya.

 

Second Triplicity:

The emptiness of clarity, or Dharmakaya of the Sambhogakaya; The clarity of clarity, or Sambhogakaya of the Sambhogakaya; The energy of clarity, or Nirmanakaya of the Sambhogakaya.

 

Third Triplicity: The emptiness of energy or Dharmakaya of the Nirmanakaya; The clarity of energy or Sambhogakaya of the Nirmanakaya; The energy of energy or Nirmanakaya of the Nirmanakaya.

 

In the first triplicity, the emptiness, clarity, and energy remain unsullied by experiences of any kind. They are what they are primordially and eternally. Emptiness remains empty even as it is inseparable from clarity and even as this inseparability is the potentiality for energetic manifestation.

 

In the second triplicity, we are concerned with appearances. The emptiness of clarity is the emptiness that is the essential nature of all appearances. The clarity of clarity is the appearances themselves. The energy of clarity is the actual events that follow upon the manifestation of the appearances.

 

In the third triplicity, we are concerned with concrete events and manifestations. This is best understood through an example such as the passion of anger. The emptiness of energy with respect to anger would be the essential emptiness or illusory nature of the anger, the fact that each passion is fundamentally empty and is not in reality as it presents itself to be. The clarity of energy in respect to anger is the manifesting anger itself, the anger that manifests as the appearance of anger. The energy of energy in respect to anger is the action that results from the anger.

 

 

So here, Tenzin is saying in no uncertain terms that the Sambhogakaya is rigpa. "The Sambhogakaya is the clear, spontaneous presence of rigpa in the empty, natural state of the mind"

 

Is not the rigpa also called "clear light"?

 

Tenzin also says "The appearance of images (for example, during dark retreat) due to the relationship of body and mind is the Sambhogakaya," So there you have it. Tenzin is also saying that sambhogakaya causes images. Images are visible and luminous.

 

If a = b and b = c, then a = c. This is common logic.

 

You know, I have presented oodles of information from various sources concerning this subject and the most you have done is say that that is not what your authority figures and teachers have told you.

 

I think it is only fair that you now present what your authority figures and teachers have told you, what sambhogakaya and clear light are. I sure hope you don't tell me that the luminosity is just a metaphor. I have quoted various sources that say that the sambhogakaya, when manifest, is not only luminous and shiny but it is the rainbow body. It can actually be seen by other normal people.

 

TI

[C T]

Have you heard of distinguishing rigpa from sems?

 

Have you heard of the mirror/crystal ball metaphor where you distinguish reflections from the mirror?

Have you heard of non-contrivance? Leaving everything as they are, not needing to distinguish/discriminate?

[C T]

Hey TI,

 

According to master Thinley Norbu, the clear light manifestation of Buddhas does indeed arise in the Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya realms. Hence, it can be understood in such a manner that the tangible nature/intrinsic non-dual quality of 'clear light' is Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya, and its empty essence the Dharmakaya.

 

Not directly related to the above, a quote from master Norbu: "By realizing the basic nature of the great bliss of the clear light of empty awareness and by continuously sustaining it, when one actually accomplishes the stages of the path, the consciousness of the five senses will dissolve into mind. Mind will dissolve into the consciousness of alaya. When alaya dissolves into the dharmata of empty clear light, even though there is no consciousness due to it being purified at the root, self-awareness wisdom light will arise like stainless sky."

 

This quote will be of some relevance to those who have the wish to enlighten in this life through dharmata phenomena without having to wait until the intermediate phases at death.

[konchog uma]

TI rigpa itself is not clear light. According to Glenn Mullin they are different (i asked him in person, i dont have a quote)... related but different, kind of like sambhogakaya and clear light.

 

since your capacity to argue is much greater than mine, i will let you have the last word, and go on believing whatever you want to believe.

 

"Clear light is defined in most texts as the unity of emptiness and clarity. It is the pure, empty awareness that is the base of the individual. "Clear" refers to emptiness, the mother, the base, kunzhi. "Light" refers to clarity, the son, rigpa, pure innate awareness. Clear light is direct realization of the unity of rigpa and the base, of awareness and emptiness."

 

-Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

[RongzomFan]

Have you heard of non-contrivance? Leaving everything as they are, not needing to distinguish/discriminate?

 

 

This is referring to outer phenomena like a gold and dirt. Internally, you need to distinguish between rigpa and sems.

[C T]

This is referring to outer phenomena like a gold and dirt. Internally, you need to distinguish between rigpa and sems.

now it is rigpa... now, it is sems... now it is rigpa... now, it is sems... now, it is... always on? now it is always off... no, wait, its on now...

 

 

you sure you know what dzogchen really means?

 

Outer and inner? care to point it out?

[RongzomFan]

Are you really debating distinguishing rigpa and sems?