Dzogchen Teachings

[ralis]

That's right Tao Bum! I don't believe anyone shifted into actual rigpa from his group explanations (exceptions allowed!). He was never that clever in my experience. His transmissions to me were when I was with him alone. The topic was always a two-way meeting of minds during a personal discussions, one on one. Norbu and I were once having a beer or two together in a bar in Nevada City, California, and Norbu asked me what I thought of an idea he had. He asked what I thought about whether he should teach Dzogchen in the traditional style of small groups and more intimate settings or should he roll out a program he had just designed. He said he had a plan to establish an international network of centers and teaching called "Santi Maha Sangha".

 

I told him I didn't like the big "international center" concept. Well we know which way he finally decided on! Transmission as in authentic "direct introduction" is extremely personal and intimate. You can't wholesale it. He needs to transmit to many students capable of transmission and set them loose to transmit to others. This is greatly lacking in his community. Yeshe ain't the guy either. More people need to be recognized and encouraged to teach and transmit directly. Its the only way to effectively transform or self-liberate society, in my opinion.

 

 

Are you the one to transmit this?

[RongzomFan]

One point of clarification that the direct intro must be one on one.

 

 

Most Vajrayana lamas give teachings, transmissions, empowerments en masse.

 

This was the case even in pre-invasion Tibet.

[ralis]

 

Most Vajrayana lamas give teachings, transmissions, empowerments en masse.

 

This was the case even in pre-invasion Tibet.

 

I have been in many of those.

[RongzomFan]

I have been in many of those.

 

Then its a simple matter of deploying what you learned.

[ralis]

That's right Tao Bum! I don't believe anyone shifted into actual rigpa from his group explanations (exceptions allowed!). He was never that clever in my experience. His transmissions to me were when I was with him alone. The topic was always a two-way meeting of minds during a personal discussions, one on one. Norbu and I were once having a beer or two together in a bar in Nevada City, California, and Norbu asked me what I thought of an idea he had. He asked what I thought about whether he should teach Dzogchen in the traditional style of small groups and more intimate settings or should he roll out a program he had just designed. He said he had a plan to establish an international network of centers and teaching called "Santi Maha Sangha".

 

I told him I didn't like the big "international center" concept. Well we know which way he finally decided on! Transmission as in authentic "direct introduction" is extremely personal and intimate. You can't wholesale it. He needs to transmit to many students capable of transmission and set them loose to transmit to others. This is greatly lacking in his community. Yeshe ain't the guy either. More people need to be recognized and encouraged to teach and transmit directly. Its the only way to effectively transform or self-liberate society, in my opinion.

 

 

In terms of ordinary life, what has the Dzogchen transmission done for you? Are you a professional in a field or a business person? If so, how has this helped your life for the better? My reason for asking this is that I have seen a number of people here in Santa Fe either fall apart or not move forward with their lives or careers after the direct intro.

[Jeff]

That's right Tao Bum! I don't believe anyone shifted into actual rigpa from his group explanations (exceptions allowed!). He was never that clever in my experience. His transmissions to me were when I was with him alone. The topic was always a two-way meeting of minds during a personal discussions, one on one. Norbu and I were once having a beer or two together in a bar in Nevada City, California, and Norbu asked me what I thought of an idea he had. He asked what I thought about whether he should teach Dzogchen in the traditional style of small groups and more intimate settings or should he roll out a program he had just designed. He said he had a plan to establish an international network of centers and teaching called "Santi Maha Sangha".

 

I told him I didn't like the big "international center" concept. Well we know which way he finally decided on! Transmission as in authentic "direct introduction" is extremely personal and intimate. You can't wholesale it. He needs to transmit to many students capable of transmission and set them loose to transmit to others. This is greatly lacking in his community. Yeshe ain't the guy either. More people need to be recognized and encouraged to teach and transmit directly. Its the only way to effectively transform or self-liberate society, in my opinion.

Can you describe what a "transmission" is? Is it a two-way meeting of minds in discussion? Or, is it much more?

 

Thanks, Jeff

[teknix]

Hi All!

 

I think it would be good to start fresh... Leave our old discussions behind.

 

One of this issues today with Dzogchen, I believe, is that it has turned into a subject and topic of "study". When that happens many mistake the "wisdom experience" with an understanding of great clarity. People read more and more texts, translations, tantras, commentaries etc. in an effort of intellectual grasping. This actually can make the task more complicated for the practitioner and teacher.

 

The state of wisdom we are attempting to get familiar with is not a conceptual understanding. Usually students have constructed a subtle framework of understanding that involves "names", "labels", "hierarchies", "stages", "paths", "attainments" and various structural supports, all conceptual constructions.

 

Rigpa is a completely "unestablished" wisdom. No concepts get one closer. There is not "anyone" to get closer. And there is "nothing" to get closer too. And there is no "getting closer" along a progressive path. Studying Dzogchen often results in establishing an imaginary, "correct Dzogchen view". However, if there is any trace of a view, even a "correct Dzogchen view", then this most subtle wisdom won't appear, only conceptual clarity will.

 

So what is one to do? Nothing. But then if we do "nothing", we are DOING a conceptual "nothing", which is also a "doing". Any effort in any direction we make in this matter is the action of "sem" or the afflicted consciousness of the Fifth Skandha.

 

The Dzogchen solution is to abandon self-effort and instead receive a "direct introduction" to this primordial "wisdom". When this "introduction" has been successful, then one rests in what is called "non-meditation". This is resting as the "unestablished". Only this is correct practice. But there must not be any sense of a "practice" occuring. No deliberate mindfulness of any kind. Rigpa contains its own quality of natural mindfulness and requires no assistance.

 

Now if anyone has a different view of Dzogchen basics, please share! But please cite no texts or quotes. I would like to discuss this from direct experience only... Let's keep it real.. :-)

 

 

Hi Jax!

 

I'm curious what comes after releasing all conceptualizations / thoughts to emptiness?

Edited March 5, 2013 by teknix

[ralis]

If one is a professional scientist and is introduced to Dzogchen, what will occur? Better science or what scenario? Perhaps quit science?

[ralis]

Jax:

 

I heard, that ChNN at one point wanted to dissolve some gars, because the Dzogchen community was getting too big. Apparently, ChNN expressed this through an email sent out to the Dzogchen community. Were you still part of the tsegyalgar mailing list then?

 

Just wondering if anyone else could confirm this. Maybe he wanted to do this, in order to keep costs down on receiving the teachings or the cost of running a network of communities?

 

 

I heard that back in the 90's that he wanted to dissolve the whole thing.

[teknix]

If one is a professional scientist and is introduced to Dzogchen, what will occur? Better science or what scenario? Perhaps quit science?

 

Probably begin to understand how and why they are mutually exclusive practices?

[ralis]

As far as I know, it is still the policy at the center in Massachusetts that in order to order books or other materials, a membership fee is required. The fees are 108.00 to ..........

[konchog uma]

science and dzogchen aren't mutually exclusive.

 

speculation about what might happen to a scientist is pure conjecture though.

 

you should research the phenomenon of rainbow body.. a lot of people have died and left nothing but hair and finger/toenails... its been documented. that might even qualify as supernatural lol

[teknix]

Self-evident truth verse empirical truth?

[ralis]

science and dzogchen aren't mutually exclusive.

 

speculation about what might happen to a scientist is pure conjecture though.

 

you should research the phenomenon of rainbow body.. a lot of people have died and left nothing but hair and finger/toenails... its been documented. that might even qualify as supernatural lol

 

 

I am familiar with the rainbow body. What I want to know is what happens to the critical thinking process required to perform scientific research or even baking a cake for that matter. If thought is liberated to it's natural condition i.e, pure energy, then what mechanism takes over to live a normal life.

[RongzomFan]

Its not like you stop thinking. Thinking and breath are tied together. As long as you breathe, you think.

[teknix]

Self-evident truth is the only absolute form.

[teknix]

Its not like you stop thinking. Thinking and breath are tied together. As long as you breathe, you think.

 

I don't find that to be true.

[teknix]

The thoughts don't really exist, and neither does who you think you are. Who you think you are is built with a bunch of thoughts, then the entire scenario becomes a joke.

Edited March 5, 2013 by teknix

[konchog uma]

sorry ralis, i meant that bit about rainbow body and non-mutual exclusivity towards teknix

 

and i meant the bit about the conjecture towards you

 

i was posting in a hurry sorry for the confusion

 

to address what you just said, i don't think that thoughts or logic or science is mutually exclusive to the natural state. As i have learned (and occaisionally experienced), one can rest in rigpa and think too. Its just that the thoughts self-liberate in the same instant they arise.. and yes i know that in an ultimate sense they neither arise or liberate, but i am speaking from the conventional level.

 

So there is experience, even thought, but there is no grasping, no clinging.

[RongzomFan]

Its all about freedom from grasping thoughts.

[konchog uma]

right

[RongzomFan]

ok

[teknix]

That's a good start imo, but it isn't deep enough meditation (imo) to observe the above described phenomena, let alone what comes after.

[RongzomFan]

That's a good start imo, but it isn't deep enough meditation (imo) to observe the above described phenomena, let alone what comes after.

 

 

Does your picture keep changing color?

[teknix]

Yep, I feel yellow right now