Why Taoism?

[三江源]

Thou shalt not (anything).

kill.

covet.

disrespect others.

steal.

 

all these things and much more are out of alignment with one's true nature.

[Marblehead]

kill.

covet.

disrespect others.

steal.

 

all these things and much more are out of alignment with one's true nature.

Please be careful here. We are talking about the true nature of the animal (not the socialized and acculturated humane human).

Edited March 6, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Thou shalt not commit suicide....???

That is one that could be fairly argued. Based on what Chuang Tzu wrote, suicide would be a no, no.

[三江源]

Please be careful here. We are talking about the true nature of the animal (not the humane human).

You could be careful, Marlehead.

 

I didnt say

 

all these things and much more are out of alignment with one's socialized and acculturated nature.

 

 

I said

 

all these things and much more are out of alignment with one's true nature.

[Marblehead]

You could be careful, Marlehead.

 

I didnt say

 

all these things and much more are out of alignment with one's socialized and acculturated nature.

 

 

I said

 

all these things and much more are out of alignment with one's true nature.

But Cat, there are those who do all those things because it is part of their true nature.

 

There are those who kill opthers every day.

There are those who covet what others have every day.

There are those who disrespect others every day.

There are those who steal from others every day.

 

Nearly all of us are taught to not do these things but they still are being done every day.

[三江源]

yes, we havent found our true nature when we do such things.

 

hence we seek to uncover ourselves from the distortions that motivate all action devoid of heart.

[Jetsun]

But Cat, there are those who do all those things because it is part of their true nature.

 

There are those who kill opthers every day.

There are those who covet what others have every day.

There are those who disrespect others every day.

There are those who steal from others every day.

 

Nearly all of us are taught to not do these things but they still are being done every day.

 

They are out of touch with their true nature which is why they do those things

[Marblehead]

yes, we havent found our true nature when we do such things.

 

hence we seek to uncover ourselves from the distortions that motivate all action devoid of heart.

Hi Cat,

 

Nice fussing with you again. Hehehe. It has been a while.

 

Okay. Now, I will agree that we will be more at peace with our Self and others if we do not do these things. However, I doubt that there really is a (singular) "true nature" of the human species. If anything, its true nature would be more at self-absorbed than anything else.

 

But it is our interaction with others that allows us to be more other sensitive and less selfish. Crime and punishment (or fear thereof) also helps.

 

The nice thing about Taoism is that it is a very realistically logical philosophy. (Do this and that will likely happen.) The philosophy doesn't directly forbit the negative actions but it recommend against it.

[Marblehead]

They are out of touch with their true nature which is why they do those things

Okay, that is you and Cat against me. Hehehe. And I will still suggest that it is their true nature if they are lost souls. I further suggest that from birth we need learn to be less self-centered and learn to respect the rights of others. Lacking these learning phases humans are no diffeerent than many other wild animals.

[三江源]

Hi Cat,

 

Nice fussing with you again. Hehehe. It has been a while. Tis nice to have time to fuss!

 

Okay. Now, I will agree that we will be more at peace with our Self and others if we do not do these things. However, I doubt that there really is a (singular) "true nature" of the human species. If anything, its true nature would be more at self-absorbed than anything else. You doubt it, I dont doubt it. True nature would find 'self absorption' unpossible. Self- being would be in place, no absorption required.

 

But it is our interaction with others that allows us to be more other sensitive and less selfish. This is your opinion of course. I tend toward thinking that interaction with others creates issues within the emotional body which may be favourable and very well may not be. Crime and punishment (or fear thereof) also helps. Helps whom? I understand this is just your opinion... Crime and fear of punishment have never helped me at all. I would say fear of punishment has caused me a lot of problems.

 

The nice thing about Taoism is that it is a very realistically logical philosophy. (Do this and that will likely happen.) The philosophy doesn't directly forbit the negative actions but it recommend against it. Developed and integrated shen doesnt need to have stuff ''directly forbidden'.. the idea is you develop your true self and therefore need no recommendations from outer sources.

[Marblehead]

Hi Cat,

 

Yes, of course, everything I say is my opinion and understanding.

 

I do understand what you are saying and I am not directly disagreeing with you. However, to suggest that everyone has a true nature that is nice is a little naive, I think.

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

I would rather read your mind in order to come to my senses. I cannot read the TTC directly. I can read people. If they make sense, then the world make sense. If they don't make sense, then the world doesn't make much sense.

Is that so? Let me know when you're done reading my mind and maybe we can discuss it.

[三江源]

Hi Cat,

 

Yes, of course, everything I say is my opinion and understanding.

 

I do understand what you are saying and I am not directly disagreeing with you. However, to suggest that everyone has a true nature that is nice is a little naive, I think.

ha ha. It isnt 'nice'!

 

we all share the same TRUE nature..

......... and it is far beyond 'nice'.

"nice" is a polite sounding social evaluation of behaviours of manners, so not in the same realm as true nature, which is in fact RADIANT.

 

( I 'm getting a bit hooked on using Bold, now that I"ve started!) ( so now I'm going to add colour!)

 

 

we all share the same TRUE nature..which is in fact RADIANT.

[Marblehead]

we all share the same TRUE nature..which is in fact RADIANT.

Hehehe. Okay, now we are progressing, so to speak. You are going to have to define Radiant for me though.

 

Would you go along with "We all share the true nature of the animal that we are."?

[dawei]

Since I deal with what I call "classical Taoism", I feel I have to reply to this. Many scholars would argue that some belief in the Tao existed for centuries before the books attributed to Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu and Lieh Tzu. Historically, this is absolutely true, and so, none of these books could be called the "start" of Taoism, which the name "classical Taoism" implies.

 

Nevertheless, those books describe the earliest form of unified Taoist thought that has survived to the modern day. Huang-Lao Taoism, for example, may claim similar pedigree, but overall, its theology does not speak to me. I refer to Chuang-Lao as classical Taoism because those books contain what is generally recognized as core Taoism in schools and religious libraries. The high regard for those books (just based on a philosophical view) must also reflect a high regard for the hidden mystical truths they investigate.

 

I generally hold this position to look prior and not just afterwards but realize most do not. So nice to read it from another.

 

an archeological journey to discover the religion beneath the philosophy.

 

I have spent some years looking at this but towards the prior periods influences from Shamanism to Spiritual alchemy. Not sure if your comments on 'hidden mystical truths' and 'religion' are prior, after, or both?

[dawei]

Hehehe. Okay, now we are progressing, so to speak. You are going to have to define Radiant for me though.

 

Would you go along with "We all share the true nature of the animal that we are."?

 

I think your just looking at the socialization of the animal. There are so many layers that they feel natural; and the people call it their nature.

 

Look at how early we program a newborn away from their inborn nature. How many days into this world would you say the average re-programming starts?

[LCH]

I think your just looking at the socialization of the animal. There are so many layers that they feel natural; and the people call it their nature.

 

Look at how early we program a newborn away from their inborn nature. How many days into this world would you say the average re-programming starts?

 

This is a good point, dawei...

 

what "techniques" would you say have helped you get beyond even a conditioned state of "nature"?

[dawei]

This is a good point, dawei...

 

what "techniques" would you say have helped you get beyond even a conditioned state of "nature"?

 

First: Don't allow the conditioning to take hold

 

I know that is not possible too early in age but it can be done as soon as one realizes it... it comes from one's innermost essence. If one can't find that or how to tap that, then I guess that is where technique and practice come in. I look at it like there are things to awaken or lose or clear up. Each person has their own physical-energetic-spiritual constitution with mental-emotional-psychological trappings... it's up to them to get beneath it all.

[JustARandomPanda]

For me, the most valuable concept of Taoism is knowing when we have enough.

 

 

I aim to live it non-conceptually. Doing so is what sages once called 'having the fortune of Heaven".

[三江源]

I think your just looking at the socialization of the animal. There are so many layers that they feel natural; and the people call it their nature.

 

Look at how early we program a newborn away from their inborn nature. How many days into this world would you say the average re-programming starts?

1 -5 minutes max.

[silas]

>>I have spent some years looking at this but towards the prior periods influences from Shamanism to Spiritual alchemy. Not sure if your comments on 'hidden mystical truths' and 'religion' are prior, after, or both?

 

In my form of classical Taoism, the hidden mystical truths and religion refer ONLY what is in the 3 scriptures: LaoTzu, ChuangTzu and LiehTzu, because those books resonate with me. In my research, I do read other scriptures, but they do not resonate with me. Occasionally I will incorporate other influences IF AND ONLY IF they help to explain a concept inside the 3 scriptures.

 

There are exceptions for outside teachings and activities that are strictly harmonious with the 3 texts. On TaoCurrents, there is an example of Taoist jewelry made from old Outer Alchemy formulas. They could be worn to honor the religious sect Taoists of old or as a personal reminder of faith and philosophy, which the LaoTzu/ChuangTzu can support. The flute meditations draw heavily on Zen traditions, but the Zen traditions are based on classical Taoist teachings (the ChuangTzu talks of the playing of flutes and the sound of flutes as metaphors in the cosmological process).

Edited March 6, 2013 by silas

[三江源]

Hehehe. Okay, now we are progressing, so to speak. You are going to have to define Radiant for me though.

 

Would you go along with "We all share the true nature of the animal that we are."?

 

 

Define radiant for you? Arent you the one showing lillies every day? What is radiance?

 

How decide to designate self as an animal, why not a lilly?

[Marblehead]

I think your just looking at the socialization of the animal. There are so many layers that they feel natural; and the people call it their nature.

 

Look at how early we program a newborn away from their inborn nature. How many days into this world would you say the average re-programming starts?

Yes, I am speaking from a view of reality as I have observed it. Socialization is never 100% successful. So, yes, my position is from the point of view that everyone should respect all others and not conduct themselves in such a manner that violates all the "Thou shalt not's" of all the various philosophies and religions.

 

Yes, socialization begins almost immediately after birth beginning with the mother-child relationship. There needs be, IMO, well-meaning socialization if a child is to adapt and function within its society. But let's face it, it is okay to eat humans if you live in a cannibalistic society.

[Stosh]

If the human mind is empty- unbiased blank slate to begin with then whatever biases folks have is dependent on chemistry and socialization. Its the human condition for folks to grow up in a socializing environment and its also human bent to develop empathy as its also normal to have fears and desires for oneself. Its a powerful thing to understand the emotions and motivations of others - both to manipulate your peers and have satisfying relationships to significant others.

Empathy sympathy love hate etc are possibilities , they are also PROBABILITIES within the context of human upbringing. How one defines human nature, whether to include the probable sentiments as being human nature or whether to assign that descriptive to the finalized versions is personal view.

As I see it personally , since the empathy is based on human brainpower and rather connected to innate hard wiring I consider it to be the 'nature of humans' , but concede that an empathic nature may not develop , that folks can end up not feeling connected with the destinies and feelings of others.

Either way, one could easily agree, if they chose to, that if humans have an innate basic nature , we are quite flexible in some respects.

 

 

 

 

 

If there is a human nature beyond those things is for speculation.

[Marblehead]

Define radiant for you? Arent you the one showing lillies every day? What is radiance?

 

How decide to designate self as an animal, why not a lilly?

Hehehe. I try to be the lily but sometimes I am the weed. Yes, the lily is radiant - the weed is dull and sometimes harmful.

 

But our needs are greater than are the lily. You know what happens when the needs are not satisfied.