Why Taoism?

[ChiDragon]

Now this we might have to discuss further. To look at only one definition of "heng" would be an error, I think.

 

"... heng in Laozi’s heng dao focuses more on "living longer" 長生 of the myriad creatures, and on the concept of "never dying" 不死 of dao as a natural way of giving birth." - Qingjie (James) Wang

 

I accept this as valid. That is why I stated that the Ten Thousand Things operate within a linear space/time variable whereas Dao is cyclical - there really is no beginning or end - it can be used but can never be used up. (Energy is this way too.)

The quote of Qinqie (James) Wang is a bit ambiguous.

 

My understanding are as follow:

1. Heng is eternal. Thus "heng" is only apply to the "eternal Tao" which does not focus more on "living longer" of the myriad creatures.

2. 長生 means "living forever", it doesn't mean "living longer".

3. The eternal Tao is not cyclical. It is true that Tao has no beginning or ending. Thus it is not cyclical.

4. Tao is not like a substance nor an energy which can be used or used up.

5. The word "living" seems not quite appropriate to be applies for the eternal Tao. Tao is obscure with some potential power to create but Tao is not a living being. Hence, Tao does not need to strive for living a longer life.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Valid points all.

The quote of Qinqie (James) Wang is a bit ambiguous.

Hehehe. He's not the first or last person to make an ambiguous statement.

 

1. Heng is eternal. Thus "heng" is only apply to the "eternal Tao" which does not focus more on "living longer" of the myriad creatures.

Is "eternal" the only possible translation of the word "heng"? From what I have seen regarding the translation of Chinese characters there are normally five or six different English words that could be used to translate the Chinese character. Why would there be a restriction on this one word only?

 

2. 長生 means "living forever", it doesn't mean "living longer".

I cannot comment to this due to my lack of ability.

 

3. The eternal Tao is not cyclical. It is true that Tao has no beginning or ending. Thus it is not cyclical.

Okay, I will give you that. But I suggest that all things and all non-things within Tao have a cyclical existence and non-existence.

 

4. Tao is not like a substance nor an energy which can be used or used up.

Dao cannot be defined therefore one cannot say what Dao is not.

 

5. The word "living" seems not quite appropriate to be applies for the eternal Tao. Tao is obscure with some potential power to create but Tao is not a living being. Hence, Tao does not need to strive for living a longer life.

True. It depends on how one defines "living". I sometimes refer the the planet Earth as a living organism. But I agree that we should never personify Dao. That would be wrong, IMO. But to refer to it as I do to Earth would still be within reason. Both are dynamic - ever-changing, as we too are.

[ChiDragon]

Is "eternal" the only possible translation of the word "heng"? From what I have seen regarding the translation of Chinese characters there are normally five or six different English words that could be used to translate the Chinese character. Why would there be a restriction on this one word only?

Here are some of the possible definitions:
(1)长久；固定。(forever; definite)
(2)恒心。(perseverance; determination)
(3)寻常；普通。(frequent; common)
(4)规律；法则。(routine; principle)
(5)伦常。(ethical tradition)
(6)副词。经常；常常。(adverb: frequently, always)
(7)副词。犹尝，曾。(adverb: tested; not long after)

[ChiDragon]

This seems to agree with one of Wang Bi's interpretation that associate "Wu with Tao" and Yu with the phenomenal world. (But I am not really sure this is what you mean.) I do not agree with Wang Bi on that point only (Most other points are really great). I discuss some reasons in my book. I actually also follow through that route, the logic would end up the same.

 

[Note Wang Bi has "Wu is the origin of Heaven and Earth", so he can say Wu is Tao.]

In your example, it seems 名 was excluded in the translation. Perhaps, the thought would be more complete if "ming" was included.

 

3. 無，名天地之始。

3. Invisible, it was named as the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible, it was named as the mother of all things.

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as profound. Profound and more profound,

 

Annotations:

Line 3. At the beginning of heaven and earth, Tao was given a name as "Invisible(Wu)".

Line 4. After all things were created and manifested, Tao was given a name as "Visible(You)".

 

Line 5. When Tao is always invisible, one would observe its characteristic of obscurity.

Line 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its limitations.

 

Line 7. Both of them with names, Invisible(無) and Visible(有), are describing Tao in its two states of appearance. The two states were formless and manifested.

Line 8. Both names are obscure and profound.

Edited March 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

 

Here are some of the possible definitions:

 

(2)恒心。(perseverance)

 

Okay. I found one that suits my fancy. Thanks.

[Marblehead]

Annotations:

Line 3. At the beginning of heaven and earth, Tao was given a name as "Invisible(Wu)".

Line 4. After all things were created and manifested, Tao was given a name as "Visible(You)".

 

Line 5. When Tao is always invisible, one would observe its characteristic of obscurity.

Line 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its limitations.

 

Line 7. Both of them with names, Invisible(無) and Visible(有), are describing Tao in its two states of appearance. The two states were formless and manifested.

Line 8. Both names are obscure and profound.

I actually like that.

[dawei]

The quote of Qinqie (James) Wang is a bit ambiguous.

 

My understanding are as follow:

1. Heng is eternal. Thus "heng" is only apply to the "eternal Tao" which does not focus more on "living longer" of the myriad creatures.

2. 長生 means "living forever", it doesn't mean "living longer".

 

 

I think those statements are NOT what article said... I think the article may be tricky to weed through but it does explain it:

 

1. we may reach a new level of understanding of the first meaning of heng dao as “jiu.” Here “jiu” is not only “living longer” (chang sheng 長生), but also “never dying” or “being immortal” (bu si 不死).

 

2. As we have discussed above, Laozi’s dao as heng dao focuses on “living longer (chang sheng 長生),” and “being immortal (bu si 不死)”

 

 

“living longer" = (chang sheng 長生)

 

“being immortal" = (bu si 不死)”

 

 

Heng is applied to temporal things.... not just eternal... Again, from the article:

 

"heng can be found in the two verses of The Book of Songs 《詩經》: “like heng-ing (waxing) of the moon and like rising of the sun” and “Ju and Pi are heng-ing (spreading) everywhere in the field” (see Ruan)."

 

"Laozi seems to lead us to the understanding of two kinds of time. One is heng-ing of dao while the other is heng-ed in dao or the dao-ed. One is never dying while the other is living, dying and coming to birth again."

 

---

 

Sarah Allen in her "THE GREAT ONE, WATER, AND THE LAOZI: NEW LIGHT FROM GUODIAN" which is about the Tai Yi Sheng Shui text says:

 

 

This “old script” form is similar to the Chu script form (fig. 2e) found in the Guodian texts, with a moon on the left and bu 卜, “to divine” (originally cracks made on oracle bones) on the right.

The "Chu Script" form (and let's remember that the Lao Zi Guodian text and the Tai Yi Sheng Shui are from Chu and Laozi is from Chu), has HENG as a symbol of divination between the upper line (Heaven) and lower line (Earth)...

She goes on to say:

"Although chang and heng became irretrievably confused after the reign of Liu Heng ... heng was clearly grounded in the constancy of certain astronomical phenomena."

Edited March 19, 2013 by dawei

[dawei]

Okay. I found one that suits my fancy. Thanks.

 

Remember that the idea of Heng is, that which is successful in its path (or way)... Its success lies in its relationship to the process of Dao. And this, it seems to be, to be the obvious link to DE, when you think of DE as 'efficacious'.

 

I often prefer this meaning for DE instead of the virtue or power as there is something more innate and more primordial going on.

[ChiDragon]

1. we may reach a new level of understanding of the first meaning of heng dao as “jiu.” Here “jiu” is not only “living longer” (chang sheng 長生), but also “never dying” or “being immortal” (bu si 不死).

 

2. As we have discussed above, Laozi’s dao as heng dao focuses on “living longer (chang sheng 長生),” and “being immortal (bu si 不死)”

 

 

“living longer" = (chang sheng 長生)

 

“being immortal" = (bu si 不死)”

 

What is the character for "jiu"...???

 

“living longer" is not = (chang sheng 長生)

 

(chang sheng 長生) = living forever.

 

"living longer" doesn't mean live forever. I see there is an indication that something will die eventually.

Edited March 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Here is the article:

http://www.cnphenomenology.com/modules/article/view.article.php/711/c7

 

You need to take up your beef with the author... it is HIS words... and there is no mistaking HIS meaning:

 

 

"heng in Laozi’s heng dao focuses more on “living longer” 長生 of the myriad creatures, and on the concept of “never dying” 不死 of dao as a natural way of giving birth."

 

 

王庆节: Qingjie (James) Wang, Associate Professor, Department of Philosophy, The Chinese University of Hong Kong.

E-mail: [email protected]

[ChiDragon]

Here is the article:

http://www.cnphenomenology.com/modules/article/view.article.php/711/c7

 

You need to take up your beef with the author... it is HIS words... and there is no mistaking HIS meaning:

 

Are you kidding me......???

[Marblehead]

Remember that the idea of Heng is, that which is successful in its path (or way)...

Exactly. And this will cause me, in the future when talking about 'heng', to also speak to 'ziran' and 'wu wei'. I think that to attain heng (long life) one must ziran (live according to one's nature) and wu wei (take no coersive action).

[Marblehead]

 

Are you kidding me......???

Hehehe. He probably was but maybe he just didn't want to get into another arguement with you.

 

I agree with Dawei though - read the article.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. He probably was but maybe he just didn't want to get into another arguement with you.

 

I agree with Dawei though - read the article.

 

It is a linguistic problem to begin with. I am not against anything else.

[dawei]

Hehehe. He probably was but maybe he just didn't want to get into another arguement with you.

 

I agree with Dawei though - read the article.

 

Well, I am not in a position to argue another person's article... maybe only as far as I can understanding it... but it's very clear to me... So the only thing I can advise is for another to simply take the time and read it. So I am not kidding really.

 

I can see from your Heng-Ziran-Wuwei connection that you understand his point.

[Marblehead]

I can see from your Heng-Ziran-Wuwei connection that you understand his point.

Yeah, I think I understand it but the proof will present itself if/when I get into a discussion and I am asked to explain it in my own words and without the use of the Chinese-Romanized words.

 

But yes, regarding another's words, all we can do is argue our understanding of what was said. But then, we might be all wet.

[Stosh]

Live forever= not possible , a romantic wish born of fear of death

self preservation , homeostasis , legacy = possible

 

An interesting article , but I humbly agree with CD here

and am really only saying so now,

because I so rarely say it -(even when I do)

even though he is making more of a linguistic point and I am

speaking from a view of reverse engineering what must clearly not have been meant

IMO

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. He probably was but maybe he just didn't want to get into another arguement with you.

 

I agree with Dawei though - read the article.

 

So, you didn't understand it neither.........

 

 

PS......

Like you said, I couldn't help it. Just got to give it to you.......???

[Marblehead]

 

So, you didn't understand it neither.........

 

 

PS......

Like you said, I couldn't help it. Just got to give it to you.......???

Good try. Didn't work though. Maybe I should look for a pinyin copy of the Ma-wang-tui and Guodian texts so I can properly support what I am suggesting. Those would give us the usage of the word "heng" before it was changed to "chang".

[dawei]

Maybe I should look for a pinyin copy of the Ma-wang-tui and Guodian texts so I can properly support what I am suggesting. Those would give us the usage of the word "heng" before it was changed to "chang".

 

Not sure exactly what your suggesting yet... but here is a start if you want to just look at the chapters. You'll have to simply figure out where a translator was using something like "Constant" (for Chang, when the older text had Heng):

 

 

恆(恒)

MWDA 1, 2, 3, 27, 28, 32, 34, 37, 46, 48, 51, 61, 64, 65, 67, 74, 76, 79

MWDB 1, 2, 3, 27, 28, 32, 34, 37, 48, 51, 61, 64, 65, 67, 74

GD 32, 37, 46, C64

[Marblehead]

 

Not sure exactly what your suggesting yet... but here is a start if you want to just look at the chapters. You'll have to simply figure out where a translator was using something like "Constant" (for Chang, when the older text had Heng):

 

 

恆(恒)

MWDA 1, 2, 3, 27, 28, 32, 34, 37, 46, 48, 51, 61, 64, 65, 67, 74, 76, 79

MWDB 1, 2, 3, 27, 28, 32, 34, 37, 48, 51, 61, 64, 65, 67, 74

GD 32, 37, 46, C64

From J. Wang's article I understand that the older versions of the TTC had "chang" and "heng" being used as they were initially intended. When "chang" replaced "heng" only the word "chang" appeared in the later texts. This would have possibly caused misunderstandings as to what was originally intended.

 

Of course, I do not believe in human (or any other manifestation) immortality so the word "heng" as the Dragon defined it originally would not apply to any manifest existence. But "long life" or "to live long" is a very interesting concept. Yes, I want to live long.

 

Perhaps I can ID the oldest (Lao Tzu's time) Chinese characters for chang and heng and get a feel for what I am looking for that way. (I'm just looking for the easiest way to do it. Hehehe.)

[ChiDragon]

Good try. Didn't work though. Maybe I should look for a pinyin copy of the Ma-wang-tui and Guodian texts so I can properly support what I am suggesting. Those would give us the usage of the word "heng" before it was changed to "chang".

 

I have posted this copy somewhere, before, showing all the changes and corrections were made to the Tao Te Ching. However, pinyin is not very convincing. It would probably make it more confusing.

 

 

FYI Both characters "heng" and "chang"were used in the TTC at the time. There were more "heng" than "chang". Later, all of the "heng" were changed to "chang" because of the name of the ruler.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

FYI Both characters "heng" and "chang"were used in the TTC at the time. There were more "heng" than "chang". Later, all of the "heng" were changed to "chang" because of the name of the ruler.

Exactly. That's what I'm talking about and looking for the most original where the word "heng" was initially used.

[ChiDragon]

Exactly. That's what I'm talking about and looking for the most original where the word "heng" was initially used.

19 heng(恒) and 6 chang(常) in the two pages Tao Te Ching reflects both the MWD-A and MWD-B

 

If you are using Firefox, you can go to View/Find and copy the character into the Find window. Then click "Highlight all". Start counting but ignore the first two for both characters. It is because they part of the explanation.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

19 heng(恒) and 6 chang(常) in the two pages MWD document

 

If you are using Firefox, you can go to View/Find and copy the character into the Find window. Then click "Highlight all". Start counting but ignore the first two for both characters. It is because they part of the explanation.

Yeah, I have done the "copy character" and define/translate before. But as you pointed out earlier, "heng" is also used as a modifier so I would need to know what word it is modifying.

 

That'll be a nice game for me to play when I have nothing else to do for an extended period of time.