Why Taoism?

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, I have done the "copy character" and define/translate before. But as you pointed out earlier, "heng" is also used as a modifier so I would need to know what word it is modifying.

 

That'll be a nice game for me to play when I have nothing else to do for an extended period of time.

 

A modifier or adjective is, normally, in front of a noun. In this case, 恒道(heng Tao), heng(eternal) is in front of "Tao" which makes Tao eternal or the eternal Tao.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

From J. Wang's article I understand that the older versions of the TTC had "chang" and "heng" being used as they were initially intended. When "chang" replaced "heng" only the word "chang" appeared in the later texts. This would have possibly caused misunderstandings as to what was originally intended.

 

Of course, I do not believe in human (or any other manifestation) immortality so the word "heng" as the Dragon defined it originally would not apply to any manifest existence. But "long life" or "to live long" is a very interesting concept. Yes, I want to live long.

 

Perhaps I can ID the oldest (Lao Tzu's time) Chinese characters for chang and heng and get a feel for what I am looking for that way. (I'm just looking for the easiest way to do it. Hehehe.)

 

I would start with the four Goudian chapters I listed (GD 32, 37, 46, C64)... since you like Hendrick and I think you said you have a pdf of his Guodian, you can see his characters for the chapter and how he handles them.

 

The first two are used for Dao and the next two for people. Thus, you can infer it will not be 'eternal' in every usage. After that, you could look at Hendrick's MWD and the chapters I listed for that.

 

If you want to hear or learn more about the Heng connection to Shamanism... then let me know.

[ChiDragon]

Dao cannot be defined therefore one cannot say what Dao is not.

 

Yes, I can say that Tao is not visible.

[Marblehead]

 

A modifier or adjective is, normally, in front of a noun. In this case, 恒道(heng Tao), heng(eternal) is in front of "Tao" which makes Tao eternal or the eternal Tao.

Okay, that's one down and only 18 more to go of the ones you mentioned above.

[Marblehead]

I would start with the four Goudian chapters I listed (GD 32, 37, 46, C64)... since you like Hendrick and I think you said you have a pdf of his Guodian, you can see his characters for the chapter and how he handles them.

 

The first two are used for Dao and the next two for people. Thus, you can infer it will not be 'eternal' in every usage. After that, you could look at Hendrick's MWD and the chapters I listed for that.

 

If you want to hear or learn more about the Heng connection to Shamanism... then let me know.

Gee. Both you and the Dragon want me to do all the work. Hehehe. Good suggestion though, thanks. Yes, I did buy the hard copy of Henrick's Guodian so I do have it for doing the work.

 

And yes, I am sure there are many instances where "heng" is used referring to people living longer (persevering).

 

I'll pass on the Shamanism, but thanks.

[Marblehead]

 

Yes, I can say that Tao is not visible.

But Chidragon, the manifest aspects of Tao are visible, aren't they?

[dawei]

Gee. Both you and the Dragon want me to do all the work. Hehehe. Good suggestion though, thanks. Yes, I did buy the hard copy of Henrick's Guodian so I do have it for doing the work.

 

Actually... you said you wanted to research some stuff... if you want someone to share info, just ask.

 

I'll pass on the Shamanism, but thanks.

 

I'll start another thread as some might find it useful to know the original use of HENG.

[Marblehead]

Actually... you said you wanted to research some stuff...

Yeah, I did say that, didn't I?

 

If I get stumped I'll ask for help. Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

But Chidragon, the manifest aspects of Tao are visible, aren't they?

 

No, the manifest aspects of Tao are only making all the myriad things visible which indicate that Tao does exist. We can only observe the boundary of Tao. We can only be spoken of Tao but not seen. Thus Tao is always invisible. Do you know what Tao look like....???

[三江源]

 

 

If you want to hear or learn more about the Heng connection to Shamanism... then let me know.

Please!

[chenping]

Cat, don't you want to learn about the Heng connection to Shamanism?

[三江源]

Cat, don't you want to learn about the Heng connection to Shamanism?

Yes please I do.

[ChiDragon]

Okay, that's one down and only 18 more to go of the ones you mentioned above.

 

Gee....... and the Dragon want me to do all the work.

 

Look who's talking.......

 

 

PS.......

In that case, it would be interesting to look into "heng and chang", scholarly, with a new thread.

Edited March 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

No, the manifest aspects of Tao are only making all the myriad things visible which indicate that Tao does exist. We can only observe the boundary of Tao. We can only be spoken of Tao but not seen. Thus Tao is always invisible. Do you know what Tao look like....???

Okay, let's back up. Tao is not a thing. Tao is all things as well as all non-things. It is also the beginning and the end but this really isn't true because the end of anything is the beginning of something else.

 

Tao, the totality, cannot be seen because only the manifest aspect of Tao can be seen.

 

I think we cannot observe the boundry of Tao - as I understand currently, Tao has no boundries.

 

Can I see Chi? No.

 

Can I see empty space (potential)? No.

 

Can I make some assumptions based on what I can see? I sure can.

[Marblehead]

 

A modifier or adjective is, normally, in front of a noun. In this case, 恒道(heng Tao), heng(eternal) is in front of "Tao" which makes Tao eternal or the eternal Tao.

Okay. I've got that.

[ChiDragon]

Okay, let's back up. Tao is not a thing. Tao is all things as well as all non-things. It is also the beginning and the end but this really isn't true because the end of anything is the beginning of something else.

 

Tao, the totality, cannot be seen because only the manifest aspect of Tao can be seen.

 

A. I think we cannot observe the boundry of Tao - as I understand currently, Tao has no boundries.

 

B. Can I see Chi? No.

 

C. Can I see empty space (potential)? No.

 

 

Good, now, we have gone a long way. Finally, we have reached a conclusion that Tao is eternal, cannot be seen and it had no beginning or ending.

 

A. The next question is can we observe the boundary of Tao...???

IMO Yes, sure, Tao has boundaries. We can, only, observe its boundary by the manifest aspects of all things again. All things are created by Tao from a beginning to the end, from birth to death. Tao let all living things to have a reproduction system, so, they can go through a recycle process for their offspring. Thus there is a beginning and ending in each cycle of regeneration.

 

The eternal Tao has a limit in its creation which cannot make all things eternal like Tao itself. In Lines 5 and 6 of Chapter One, Lao Tze points out that Tao has boundaries(徼).

 

5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

B. I cannot see Chi but I can feel Chi.

C. Of course, I can see space. Otherwise, I will not see the clouds, in between me and the sky.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. We did pretty damn good there. Yea!!!

 

I would still argue that you cannot see empty space. When you see the clouds you are seeing condensed water molecules (the masnifest) and even the clear blue sky is the atmosphere that is causing the sun's white light (the manifest) to be refracted.

 

And what you see as boundries are the boundries of the manifest aspect of Tao.

 

I don't believe it is a fair statement to say "When Tao is always visible ..." because only the manifest is visible.

 

If I were to say "When I always look at the manifist ...", then yes, I would observe its boundries.

 

And then, I am still a materialist so I look at the manifest a lot and yep, all things have boundries.

[ChiDragon]

And what you see as boundries are the boundries of the manifest aspect of Tao.

 

1. I don't believe it is a fair statement to say "When Tao is always visible ..." because only the manifest is visible.

 

2. If I were to say "When I always look at the manifist ...", then yes, I would observe its boundries.

 

Yes, exactly. After all this years, I am used to reading the classic Tao Te Ching. You see why we are having a communication difficulty, it is because of the linguistic cultural difference. By reading the statement #1, that is exactly what Loa Tze said was understood in my mind("When Tao is always visible ..." because only the manifest is visible.)

 

It is also something that the westerners are not familiar with the Chinese classic. There are lots of ideas were written metaphorically. The most common thing that the westerners do was trying to interpret the superficial meaning of the characters instead of their contextual meaning.

 

The westerners like to say things precisely, as they appear to be, to avoid leaving anything out for consistency. Thus the statement #2 is exactly what it is as in statement #1 but more precise. Thus there was no mantle conversion which need to be done in the mind of the reader.

 

 

PS.....

I think you are doing a damn good job in communicating with me. Fortunately, I am glad that, at least, one person gives me less headache.......

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

 

PS.....

I think you are doing a damn good job in communicating with me. Fortunately, I am glad that, at least, one person gives me less headache.......

 

 

Thanks. While it is true that I have never denied that I am hard-headed, I learned a long time ago that if there is a disagreement, more often than not it is because there is a misunderstanding at its roots. The only way we can remove the misunderstanding is to continue to talk.

 

Of course, I have the advantage of having spent three tours in the Far East (2 in Korea & 1 in Vietnam) as well as three tours in Europe (2 in Germany and 1 in Italy) so I have had direct contact with peoples of cultures different from my roots.

 

 

An example of my thinking is what is going on with the word "heng". I honestly believe that both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu used that word to express the concept of living things having the capacity to "live long". No, not like eternal or being an immortal, but actually living to our natural potential. We can live longer if we keep ourself out of danger, out of harm's way.

 

I will have many questions and comments when DynamicTao, you, Dawei and others start talking about "wu" and "you". "Wu" is a neat word/concept. I think there is much more to it than we have yet spoken to.

 

All good stuff!

[ChiDragon]

oh! I see that's what you think. Actually, "heng" is to "live long" is not the philosophy of both Lao Tze and Chuang Tze. The character was just a regular character just like others. It was brought to our attention was because, sometimes, in history it has to substituted with another character to respect the ruler at the time.

I didn't see any notions that Lao Tze or Chuang Tze had mentioned for humans to live "long". In the story about the death of Chuang Tze's wife, I think he was suggesting to "live short" and due away with the torment of life. In Lao Tze's thinking was keep the body in good health, so, one can take good care of others. I guess keeping good health will make one live longer but not eternal.


PS....
A note to tech support, I cannot jump out the "quote window" to go below it. Would someone please rectify the situation. Thanks.

An example of my thinking is what is going on with the word "heng". I honestly believe that both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu used that word to express the concept of living things having the capacity to "live long". No, not like eternal or being an immortal, but actually living to our natural potential. We can live longer if we keep ourself out of danger, out of harm's way.

[Marblehead]

I didn't see any notions that Lao Tze or Chuang Tze had mentioned for humans to live "long".

 

That's okay. Our different experiences in life cause us to see different things at times even though we might be looking at the same thing.

 

I have a goal to live to 116 years so I need to gain all the knowledge I can about "living long" and know how to apply that knowledge successfully.

[Stosh]

Living long or short would be an example of a perspective based judgement any way

It doesnt fit my read of his sage to tell folks that their goal is to live long

perhaps timelessly? , irrespective of duration

IMO yes I see the circularity of what I just wrote

Edited March 22, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Actually, Chuang Tzu does in one place say that a long life is no different from a short life. But then I don't believe everything he wrote. Hehehe.

[dawei]

Please!

 

Thanks Cat... I'm expanding the background on HENG going back to the Oracle bones and how it has transformed over time.

 

I will show its relationship to Shamanism, Tai Ji, Yijing (Book of Classic), the moon Goddess, etc.

 

Just not sure where to post as I am not sure there are others who have ever researched it before, other than maybe DynamicTao... but it may lend some new understanding to its use or meaning in the oldest Guodian and MWD texts of Lao Zi. But I might post in the classic subforum as it is meant to shed light on the Lao Zi text.

[Stosh]

Actually, Chuang Tzu does in one place say that a long life is no different from a short life. But then I don't believe everything he wrote. Hehehe.

Im not saying this, that I KNOW he meant it this way ,

but if one is living at the moment in moments then duration is meaningless

That one ever did something will stand for all eternity

Its a figurative way around some things that may be incongruous

if they are taken literally

But I dont think personally that anyone has a lock on being correct

so your placement of disbelief really doesnt seem out of place for various

sentences -such as they stand ,as they have been passed down .

Someday I would like to see Chi dragons complete lingo corrected version

for Lao or Chuang

Have a nice weekend