Why Taoism?

[三江源]

 

It would not be considered 'interference" if there was no harm done other than a good cause.

Has there been harm shown from red dragon practices?

[ChiDragon]

Has there been harm shown from red dragon practices?

 

I hope it better not be....

[三江源]

 

I hope it better not be....

Me too.

 

I never heard nor read anything negative about it. Unlike semen retention practises, which are so often problematic, it seems.

[LCH]

Hi Silas,

 

"One world religion" sends my red flags up all over the place. Not because I am paranoid or anything, just aware of the power of belief. I do definitely feel that beyond the attachment people can form to money, the ultimate way to control or manipulate the masses is through their inherent fear of the unknown, or "death".

 

I mentioned it earlier in this thread that the owning of thoughts and emotional energies is way more powerful than just making someone a monetary servant to a debt-based monetary system.

 

In being on this forum actively for only about a month, I can see that there are many different variations of "Taoism" practiced, or non-practiced, depending on how you view the words in describing your perceptions. Part of this reason is because of the enigmatic nature of "The Tao".

 

Generally, I have nothing against someone who believes in the "bardo", "heaven", "purgatory", the wheel of karma etc...

 

But what of those, who don't necessarily feel that the whole process of life is to experience, "die", and be recycled into another experience.

 

In a way, that is saying that someone is just never good enough to move on. Like the slaves that were freed in the civil war only to get jobs working for people who charged them more money to live on their land than they paid them, thus making them indentured servants.

 

The "Deities" of religion feed off the emotional energy of those people who are praying to them, and asking for their help. It is a co-dependent situation, where one definitely needs the other. Those "keepers" of religion here in body are going to try their hardest to keep the heard as intact as possible, since this is a source of food, these people are getting directives from somewhere.

 

I realize this is somewhat "out there", but I have had personal experiences with beings such as these, and I can also say that just because someone receives a third eye vision, doesn't mean it is for your "greatest good". Chakra manipulation is a very real thing in my world, and thus is part of the ownership and vigilance practiced and attained in one's awakening.

 

Many may be aware of this, but I felt compelled to express from my experience.

[newbjpt13]

 

IMHO "stop her period" is not a cultivation nor an interaction with nature but interfered with the course of nature.

 

That is interesting. Evolution is also a course of nature, it enabled us to evolve to higher realms of thinking beyond the other animals. If evolution is also natural could you not say that due to our higher intelligence our ability to recognize the benefits of such a technique is nature's way of ensuring that our species does not overpopulate and overstrain our world? At what point do we define a difference between the natural of the biological creation and the nature of the Tao which is in some ways precedes nature.

Edited March 11, 2013 by newbjpt13

[三江源]

 

The "Deities" of religion feed off the emotional energy of those people who are praying to them, and asking for their help. It is a co-dependent situation, where one definitely needs the other. Those "keepers" of religion here in body are going to try their hardest to keep the heard as intact as possible, since this is a source of food, these people are getting directives from somewhere.

 

I realize this is somewhat "out there", but I have had personal experiences with beings such as these, and I can also say that just because someone receives a third eye vision, doesn't mean it is for your "greatest good".

Hi LCH, thankyou for sharing. Are you able to tell us more of your experiences with these beings?

 

(Understand indeed if you dont wish to.)

[newbjpt13]

On a side note, this has been a good thread to read through.

[Marblehead]

Maybe, but I don't feel like spending 30 more minutes examining and rewording myself You have no idea how long I already spent rephrasing myself. Maybe I will eventually rephrase it.

Yeah, I think you should do that when you find the time. On occasion I must rephrase myself because others have attained a misunderstanding of what I meant to present.

 

And I will agree that our thoughts are sometimes almost impossible to present to others logically but we must try.

[三江源]

Yeah, I think you should do that when you find the time. On occasion I must rephrase myself because others have attained a misunderstanding of what I meant to present.

 

And I will agree that our thoughts are sometimes almost impossible to present to others logically but we must try.

eh?

[Marblehead]

You believe this also about semen retention ?

Yes.

[Marblehead]

Does anyone think we are are heading towards a one-world religion? I posted this question in the General Disc. forum, but it seems relevant here too. By "one world religion" I mean some kind of unified religion. Would it have its basis in Christianity, the most popular religion in the world today?

 

Everything is mapping into Christianity. Christian Buddhism, for example, maps the Buddha to Jesus and the overmind to God. Christian Judiasm (Jews For Jesus) accept Jesus as the messiah and hence the New Testament. All of the New Age religions seem to be based in Christianity. The "3 teachings" of old China religion (Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism) have become the "4 teachings" with Christianity gaining converts in large numbers (or so I am told).

 

Will some form of syncretic Christianity be the one-world religion? I have heard that in such a religion, any doctrine, teaching or story that does not map would have to be discarded. How would such a one-world church treat outside people, like non-mapping Taoists? A one-world church would wield considerable power.

You did a fantastic job at trying to change the subject. Hehehe. I enter into these discussions now and again even though I am an Atheist and I always end in conclusion that although it is possible that all religions will one day meld into one I just don't see it happening any time soon.

 

But I will give credit to the Pantheists and Unitarians who are trying for this goal.

[Marblehead]

eh?

What?

[ChiDragon]

 

If evolution is also natural could you not say that due to our higher intelligence our ability to recognize the benefits of such a technique is nature's way of ensuring that our species does not overpopulate and overstrain our world? At what point do we define a difference between the natural of the biological creation and the nature of the Tao which is in some ways precedes nature.

 

Nature has no mercy and treat all things as straw dogs(Chapter 5).

 

It is not Nature's concern that our species ever over strain our world. The nature of the Tao never precedes Nature because the natural of the biological creation is part of Nature.

[silas]

You did a fantastic job at trying to change the subject. Hehehe. I enter into these discussions now and again even though I am an Atheist and I always end in conclusion that although it is possible that all religions will one day meld into one I just don't see it happening any time soon.

 

But I will give credit to the Pantheists and Unitarians who are trying for this goal.

 

Thank you. Unitarian Universalism. You just helped me to remember them, because someone in my younger life once recommended Universalism to me.

 

Classical Taoism qualifies as pantheist (immanent but also transcendental), but does not try to become a one-world religion. All religions are within Tao and are valued for their individual voices, their own theological microcosms, like in the real world. It does, however, provide a framework for understanding how religions form and work together. In classical Taoism, individual religions retain their identities.

 

I found one universalist Taoism called I-Kuan Tao that combines teachings from Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Christianity. It could be easy for other forms of Taoism to become universalist, because of the polytheistic nature of Taoism, which absorbs other deities and doctrines. They would probably map Shangdi (上帝) the great One God to the Christian God.

 

If the world is moving toward a one-world religion based in Christianity, would there be Christians who actually help to establish syncretic universalist churches like I-Kuan Tao? That seems reasonable, doesn't it?

[silas]

 

Nature has no mercy and treat all things as straw dogs(Chapter 5).

 

It is not Nature's concern that our species ever over strain our world. The nature of the Tao never precedes Nature because the natural of the biological creation is part of Nature.

 

The "straw dogs" quote is interesting and in classical Taoism (from the TaoTeChing ch. 5, as you say).

 

In the practice of classical Taoism, mercy is a spontaneous act that happens without thought or intention (wu-wei).

 

A man of the highest benevolence acts, but from no ulterior motive.

TTC ch. 38; Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching.

The sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action.

TTC ch. 2; Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching.

 

 

In the philosophy of classical Taoism, the sage shows mercy to balance the world.

 

The sage does not hoard.

Having bestowed all he has on others, he has yet more;

Having given all he has to others, he is richer still.

TTC ch. 81, D.C. Lau, Tao Te Ching.

 

A rich hoard of wealth

Is bound to suffer a heavy loss.

Therefore he who is contented will encounter no disgrace.

He who knows when and where to stop will meet no danger.

TTC ch. 44; Wang, Keping, Reading The Dao: A Thematic Inquiry, p, 84.

Edited March 12, 2013 by silas

[Aaron]

Why Taoism? Uggh... Don't become a Taoist! Become a Ladist, that's where it's at. As you pointed out labels are pointless, be what you are. I've known people that cling to labels and it always seems like they do so in order to draw attention to themselves. Just be yourself and try to understand what you are reading, but also try to practice what's talked about in the Tao Te Ching. The three treasures are a good place to start, compassion (love, mercy), frugality (conservation, mindfulness), and never striving to be first in the world (humility, contentment) will get you further towards enlightenment than sitting in a lotus position will ever be able to do. However meditation doesn't hurt either.

 

Aaron

[silas]

The three treasures are a good place to start, compassion (love, mercy), frugality (conservation, mindfulness), and never striving to be first in the world (humility, contentment) will get you further towards enlightenment than sitting in a lotus position will ever be able to do. However meditation doesn't hurt either.

 

Aaron

 

 

In classical interpretation of the TTC 67, the purpose of the 3 treasures is to counterbalance an act of gain and/or aggression. Although taught as standalone moral values, the “3 Treasures” particularly relate to the protection of self-interest and the preservation of gain.

 

 

Being compassionate one could afford to be courageous (offensive/defensive),

Being frugal one could afford to extend one’s territory (expansionist),

Not daring to take the lead in the empire one could afford to be lord over the vessels.

Now, to forsake compassion for courage, to forsake frugality for expansion, to forsake the rear for the lead, is sure to end in death.

TTC ch. 67. Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching, New York: Penguin Books, c. 1969, p. 129.

Edited March 12, 2013 by silas

[newbjpt13]

 

I don't think so. Semen retention is different because it doesn't have any serious biological effect as in "stop the period" for female. If I understand it correctly, the woman's period was to use the blood to flush out the reproductive system for the arrival of the next egg. It better not to interfere with the period cycle.

Yeah, sorry that was an improper explanation on my part. There are different practices in Taoism so I am not sure if the one I read is the same practice as the red dragon thingy. It is called Female Deer Practice from what I read and has precise actions very similar to what breastfeeding infants do. You are correct about the woman's period and how it prepares for the next egg.

 

However, there are actually 3 stages in life where a woman does not produce an egg and because of that there is no period. One is post menopause, two is during pregnancy, and three is while breastfeeding a baby daily. The hormone levels in woman are different during these phases. Also, when you examine different animals the length of time humans give a mother's milk to her child is seriously out of whack with nature. A woman should possibly breastfeed or pump her milk for three years for her child. It is possible for a woman to start lactating without having a child.

[chenping]

It is possible for a woman to start lactating without having a child.

 

I suppose anything is possible but this would have to be a quirk of nature like getting born with two heads or six fingers on one hand. To draw conclusions on what is possible is a moral hazard.

[chenping]

In classical interpretation of the TTC 67, the purpose of the 3 treasures is to counterbalance an act of gain and/or aggression. Although taught as standalone moral values, the “3 Treasures” particularly relate to the protection of self-interest and the preservation of gain.

 

But Chidragon have said that the Tao just doesn't care. So, how do you justify any purpose in the 3 treasures for the human good?

[Aaron]

In classical interpretation of the TTC 67, the purpose of the 3 treasures is to counterbalance an act of gain and/or aggression. Although taught as standalone moral values, the “3 Treasures” particularly relate to the protection of self-interest and the preservation of gain.

 

 

Thanks for your elaboration but I don't think that's actually what it is about. You're misplacing the whole yin-yang chinese traditional philosophy onto the three treasures, which are actually explained in great detail in other chapters, in particular the three treasures are intended to encourage a harmonious life with others, not so much about balance, although self-interest may play a small part, although I think Lao Tzu would've wanted it to be altruistic rather than self-involved. "Only he who is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the world is worthy of ruling it" and all that. Of course that is my own opinion, so you can take it or leave.

 

Aaron

Edited March 12, 2013 by Aaron

[silas]

Thanks for your elaboration but I don't think that's actually what it is about. You're misplacing the whole yin-yang chinese traditional philosophy onto the three treasures, which are actually explained in great detail in other chapters, in particular the three treasures are intended to encourage a harmonious life with others, not so much about balance or self-interest. Of course that is my own opinion, so you can take it or leave.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron, yin-yang appears throughout the TaoTeChing, so it applies to ch. 67 as well. Plus, the actual text of ch. 67 (the translation above is from DC Lau, an academic, who translated with the eye and mind of a scholar) speaks of balance.

 

This interpretation reconciles with the Taoist rejection of doctrinal morality.

[dawei]

I suppose anything is possible but this would have to be a quirk of nature like getting born with two heads or six fingers on one hand. To draw conclusions on what is possible is a moral hazard.

 

"Wet Nurse"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse

 

 

 

A woman can only act as a wet-nurse if she is lactating. It was once believed that a wet-nurse must have recently undergone childbirth. This is not necessarily true, as regular breast suckling can elicit lactation via a neural reflex of prolactin production and secretion. Some adoptive mothers have been able to establish lactation using a breast pump so that they could feed an adopted infant.

Dr Gabrielle Palmer states:

"There is no medical reason why women should not lactate indefinitely or feed more than one child simultaneously (known as 'tandem feeding')... some women could theoretically be able to feed up to five babies."

[dawei]

But Chidragon have said that the Tao just doesn't care. So, how do you justify any purpose in the 3 treasures for the human good?

 

I would say that the Confucians did it from an attachment point of view and the daoist from a detachment point of view.

 

Confucian Example:

The sage loves to mold and perfect the culture of the world, endowing people with the talents of a shi and junzi. Thus, he does not conceal himself from the world, and he does not separate himself from the common people.

 

Daoist Example:

 

They who hold fast and cleave to the Dao are complete in the qualities belonging to it. Complete in those qualities, they are complete in their bodies. Complete in their bodies, they are complete in their spirits. To be complete in spirit is the way of the sage. (Such men) live in the world in closest union with the people, going along with them, but they do not know where they are going.

 

Tr. Legge

[chenping]

The "straw dogs" quote is interesting and in classical Taoism (from the TaoTeChing ch. 5, as you say).

 

In the practice of classical Taoism, mercy is a spontaneous act that happens without thought or intention (wu-wei).

 

A man of the highest benevolence acts, but from no ulterior motive.

TTC ch. 38; Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching.

The sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action.

TTC ch. 2; Lau, D.C., Tao Te Ching.

 

 

In the philosophy of classical Taoism, the sage shows mercy to balance the world.

 

The sage does not hoard.

Having bestowed all he has on others, he has yet more;

Having given all he has to others, he is richer still.

TTC ch. 81, D.C. Lau, Tao Te Ching.

 

A rich hoard of wealth

Is bound to suffer a heavy loss.

Therefore he who is contented will encounter no disgrace.

He who knows when and where to stop will meet no danger.

TTC ch. 44; Wang, Keping, Reading The Dao: A Thematic Inquiry, p, 84.

 

I noticed that you keep referring to "classical Taosism" when you are actually talking about "Philosophical Daoism".

 

Wang Keping and D. C. Lau belong to what Drifting Cloud referred to as "Barnes & Noble" Daoists.

 

I know that labelling is not politically-correct but we need to know what we are referring to, especially over the internet where words are all we have to use in discussion.

 

Philosophical Daoism is the western version derived from popular English translations published in the west (typically by the likes of Barnes & Noble). So, in this forum there are Barnes & Noble Daoists, mainly westerners and western-educated Asians like me, who study and expound Philosophical Daoism.

 

Classical Taoism is based on classical Chinese texts on the Tao Te Ching, as well as, other classical literature of Chinese anitquity, and practised, mainly, by the Chinese according to the Pakua explained in this thread by Mo Tzu. So, in this forum there are Classical Taoist practitioners like Taomeow.

 

Flowing Hands is an anomaly in this forum, a hybrid. He is a westerner who is a Taoist practitioner who based his Daoism on a direct transmission in English from Lao Tzu.

 

Now that we have everything squared away, it would be helpful in avoiding confusion if you use the correct term of reference.

Edited March 12, 2013 by chenping