The Question, The Purpose, The Way

[AussieFrog]

This, being the forum that it is, is surely filled with those who question the very nature of reality. As we understand it, there is one accepted academic method for determining the reality around us, and multiple accepted spiritual methods for determining reality.
I think, one of the most widely accepted, yet most fallible method for determining the nature of reality is the induction of the spiritual, or mystical, experience.

The reason I find this to be difficult as a methodology for determining truth is that so many religions and sects (and the members of) use their own personal mystical experience as a determinant of truth. This, of course, is of the most fallacious nature. When Christians see Christ during and NDE, Buddhists see The Buddha, Atheists often have alien abduction experiences and/or a meeting with deceased loved ones while the Hindu believer will witness the eternal dance of Kali and Shiva.

From my own personal experiences working with astral projection, I have found that the "astral" world is quite different, which raises many questions. The fact that my drapes are green in the astral world but white in the physical world is odd. The fact that my office wall at work is composed mainly of overlapping posters in the astral, but in the physical is just a wall - is compelling.

There is more evidence than not that the astral world (especially during highly mystical states) consists mainly of one's personal core beliefs leads me to believe that the untrained person may easily mistake a mystical experience (or projection of one's core beliefs into the oh, so malleable astral ether) as a concrete testimony of the truth of their personal beliefs and faith. This is bothersome to say the least as I have many friends and family who are convinced beyond reason that their religion or belief is the only truth out there.

Now, science has given us a form to follow for determining the most likely scenario. This is called "the scientific method". Granted, there may yet be a more logical system for determining the causes and relationships between phenomena that we, as a young and ambitious organism, have not yet adopted. However, as it is, we do have a fairly reliable method passed down from the great giants of science.
How is it that so many see our physical world as troubled and riddled with half-truths, yet expect the astral / spiritual worlds to be nothing but truth and transparency?
I would like to ,make a proposition. That those who are truly interested in understanding the nature of reality, take a scientific approach to the spiritual world. And I don't mean comparing spiritual phenomena with scientific theory - such as many mystics do with string theory. I think that's a false identity and gives us zero results.
I, for one, take Franz Bardon's proposal seriously. Robert Bruce also mentions such an idea. The concept is to place a few cards from a well suffled deck of playing cards around the house, turned upward on the top of shelves and facing outward in windows you don't usually see from outside.
Personally, I have already done this. However, I have yet to test it. The theory here is not to expect perfect results during an astral projection. The idea is to become more and more effective and maintaining a close relationship to the "real-time-zone" while out of body. Once one can effectively perform the correct retrieval of the values of each playing card while out of body - then, and only then, is one capable of testing the water. By that, I mean, once one can consciously adhere to the reality of they physical instead of flying off in some "la la astral land", then legitimate practices can begin.
I don't know about you guys, but I find it extremely difficult to maintain a real-time presence once out of body. I will quickly find myself in a strange astral ream once I get too far from my body.
And by too far, I mean, literally leaving the room my body is in. All too often my astral experiences turn whacky and cartoony and deliver zero evidences of a reality beyond the physical.
So, the question: What is going on?
The purpose: to know, to grow, to ascend.
The way: practice practice practice, and take nothing for granted until you can verify and validate.

... am I missing something?

[ChiDragon]

Remember that was yor welcome in the Lobby.

AussieFrog...
I see the depth of wisdom in your avatar.

Namaste....!!!

 

Yes, I hear you. That was what I have been advocating all along. If you keep your eyes open, then, you won't be surprised to find some of the posts with "the scientific method" approach by some members.......

However, for some reason, those members do not stay here too long and left.......

Edited March 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

... am I missing something?

I think you did a pretty good job for what you are talking about. Me? Naw. I'm satisfied with my physical world. I sometime fly away when I am in deep meditation but that's something else.

 

I don't talk too much about "truth". I do talk about physical reality as my senses perceive it. This awareness has satisfied me to the point where I don't need to go looking anymore.

 

Yes, I am an Atheist but I'm not one of those you spoke about.

[Vmarco]

Are you missing alot?,...no,...but I did observe enormous barriers that you appear to be unaware of, and which must be transcended.

 

First,...any serious practitioner of understanding the Nature of Reality must realize that we do not observe the world that surrounds us, but merely the world that surrounded us. That is the point where one realizes that science cannot determine the truth of (absolute) reality.

 

Nobel Prize-winning physicist Charles Townes was correct when he said, "Many people don’t realize that science basically involves assumptions and faith."

 

The best of scientists have pointed to something other than what science deals with,...for example, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such." Max Planck, Nobel laureate

 

Or,... "True reality lies beyond immediate sensation and the objects we see every day." Georg Hegel

 

I can understand Marblehead's feelings about the senses,...but both enlightened and open-minded folks gave different responses to that,...for example, "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go.....the only way to understand [the Tao] is to directly experience it." Lao Tzu

 

Or the Father of the Scientific Method, René Descartes, articulated, "All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once."

 

In other words, and I'll be blunt,...it is impossible to understand reality through the 6 senses.

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara

 

One must be liberated from the 6 senses before even a single truth is realizable. It is impossible to has a direct experience through the 6 senses,...all experience born of the 6 senses can only be experienced through the conditions of the 6 senses.

Although astral projection is a fun diversion,...it is, nevertheless, a diversion.

 

Imagine McKenna's response to "the serious seeker." Do you think that someone serious about understanding the Nature of Reality would be involved with astral projection?

 

I used to do astral projection 30 years ago,...would meet several friends on a regular basis,...in different places,...both worldly and other worldly. However,...it will not devulge anything about the Nature of Reality,...and not much about the Nature of the Dream.

 

A real Seeker of Truth does not seek truth,...they seek and dissolve all they can find that is not not truth.

 

A Buddhist said, "The real seeker of truth never seeks truth. On the contrary, he tries to clean himself of all that is untrue, inauthentic, insincere - and when his heart is ready, purified, the guest comes. You cannot find the guest, you cannot go after him. He comes to you; you just have to be prepared. You have to be in a right attitude."

 

Even some airy-faery New Agers got that one figured out,...as Eckhart Tolle said, "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

[Spotless]

So, the question: What is going on?

The purpose: to know, to grow, to ascend.

The way: practice practice practice, and take nothing for granted until you can verify and validate.

 

... am I missing something?

 

It took me some time to decide to "go for it" onto the spiritual path when I was young. My background chatter was all against it - but my scientific assessment was solid:

 

I had done all the prep work and my mental capacities appeared in good order.

 

I would give it due diligence

 

• Fasting
• Yoga
• Vegetarian diet

I cleansed my body

I meditated 2-4 hours a day

My Yoga exercises included headstands, breathing, etc.

 

I would give myself several years.

If I did not experience any of the typical advanced sign-posts without forcing anything - then it would only affect me in a positive way so I had nothing to loose and everything to gain. If nothing came along, I knew my mental acuity would increase, my overall state of awareness would increase, my hand - eye coordination would increase, my patience would increase and a whole pile of other proven positive effects of meditation/yoga.

 

At the end of several years I decided that I was done - I had experience nothing that would be conclusively considered outside the realm of what one might experience doing what i had done. I was not angry or in any angst whatsoever. I had experience some amazing things and learned to control my thoughts - that was a real feat given my normal headiness. Stopping thought - not mind blowing but not a bad thing to learn. Anyway - I was done and I had given it a very real open minded space of several very real years.

 

That week I had one last lecture in a group of seekers that I attended - and there in the middle of the lecture - my 3rd eye opened. During that same evening I had very clear telepathy which was at once verified several times while it took place.

 

Since that time I have always been engaged in this seeking, and I have been learning from seeing.

 

There is nothing in seeking that requires the loss of ones reasoning. Rational reasoning is what allows you to reach points where you are able to set it aside, teach it to sit and roll over. What at some point takes place is that you can rely on Knowing without the haunting of fear or distrust. The Knowing and the Seeing I am speaking of, can, as has been the case for me, take years to

expand and understand - it is everything you read about and far far more.

[Vmarco]

It took me some time to decide to "go for it" onto the spiritual path when I was young. My background chatter was all against it - but my scientific assessment was solid:

 

 

I cleansed my body

I meditated 2-4 hours a day

 

my patience would increase and a whole pile of other proven positive effects of meditation/yoga.

 

At the end of several years I decided that I was done - I had experience nothing that would be conclusively considered outside the realm of what one might experience doing what i had done. I was not angry or in any angst whatsoever. I had experience some amazing things and learned to control my thoughts - that was a real feat given my normal headiness. Stopping thought - not mind blowing but not a bad thing to learn. Anyway - I was done and I had given it a very real open minded space of several very real years.

 

I suppose that many folks imagine that the "spiritual path" is similiar to what you described,...even Siddhartha fell for the same dead-end course,...although he eventually went further.

 

Meditation belongs to of the world of hope and fear,...meditation is a diversion one uses until they realize that it will not lead to enlightenment. Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

Non-meditation is a topic that will surely upset millions who have vested meaning, money, and measure, sitting on a cushion. Millions believe that meditation is the path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment. Surely, meditation has provided solace to many, but solace is a temporary thing.

 

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as superior to those who don't formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as better than non-users.

 

Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him. Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation, more bone than skin, when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say an appreciation filled him from this meal, and as he recovered his physical strength, through the state of appreciation, he realized the Dependent Origination from which suffering arises.

 

The American Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to Source."

 

The State of Appreciation; that is threshold to enlightenment, not meditation. Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

 

Jigme Lingpa said, "The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...."

 

All Heart-centered people are non-meditators. If some "teacher" is a pusher of meditation, as some sort of practice to enlightenment,...they are false teachers of enlightenment.

 

There are many, many distorted views of enlightenment,...and ways to uncover it. The path to enlightenment is simply honesty,...and what enlightenment actually points to is the awareness of the way things are. None of the 6 sense sensations arising from a cleansed body, yoga, or meditation, can uncover the reality of enlightenment.

 

A cleansed body, yoga, or meditation are like Zen Koans,...the answer to a koan is in its dissolution.

 

Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, In a state of non-meditation, you attain [the vividness beyond concept, imagination, and projection]. As Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Of course it is difficult for someone blissed out on the opium of a cleansed body, yoga, or meditation to realize the futility of such distractions.

[Birch]

I'm somewhere midway with all this. There are so many overlapping systems in which we (or I suppose I can only speak for myself:-)) exist and they interact with each other through our individual consciousness and often unconscious. I've found meditation a way of becoming more aware of them as they operate in/on me. Money is one of my favourite examples of something made up that has actual material implications and effects on living people.

 

 

 

Scientific practice to me seems like the ideal solution to apply to myself. But I also have to be careful of 'science' because it gets passed through the consciousness and subconscious of others before reaching me. In that it has some similarities to the issue of creating a belief system out of a mystical experience like the OP describes.

 

 

Imagine, just because some people decided however long ago to establish a belief in an ultimate authority 'creator god', I had to get indoctrinated into this belief system without asking to be indoctrinated. And when I protested, I was punished for it.

 

 

I described a dream I had recently in another thread. Perhaps I should now qualify myself to teach exorcism? Or tell people to stay away from paintings? No, I'd need to learn the entire system before I could do that:-) And if the entire belief system is really only in my mind, what a disservice to others!

 

 

People will often say 'ah, but science is aware of its own processes of gradual discovery' but that doesn't stop people using scientific proof as if it were gospel to justify certain actions, much like appeals to the gods' authority have been used. Still, I'm attracted to empiricism and researching what other people have had to say about their own experiences of meditation. I think it's fine to be used by a person as they see fit. But don't insist or force or coerce anyone else to do it.

 

---very personal opinion---

[Spotless]

I suppose that many folks imagine that the "spiritual path" is similiar to what you described,...even Siddhartha fell for the same dead-end course,...although he eventually went further.

 

Meditation belongs to of the world of hope and fear,...meditation is a diversion one uses until they realize that it will not lead to enlightenment. Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

Non-meditation is a topic that will surely upset millions who have vested meaning, money, and measure, sitting on a cushion. Millions believe that meditation is the path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment. Surely, meditation has provided solace to many, but solace is a temporary thing.

 

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as superior to those who don't formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as better than non-users.

 

Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him. Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation, more bone than skin, when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say an appreciation filled him from this meal, and as he recovered his physical strength, through the state of appreciation, he realized the Dependent Origination from which suffering arises.

 

The American Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to Source."

 

The State of Appreciation; that is threshold to enlightenment, not meditation. Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

 

Jigme Lingpa said, "The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...."

 

All Heart-centered people are non-meditators. If some "teacher" is a pusher of meditation, as some sort of practice to enlightenment,...they are false teachers of enlightenment.

 

There are many, many distorted views of enlightenment,...and ways to uncover it. The path to enlightenment is simply honesty,...and what enlightenment actually points to is the awareness of the way things are. None of the 6 sense sensations arising from a cleansed body, yoga, or meditation, can uncover the reality of enlightenment.

 

A cleansed body, yoga, or meditation are like Zen Koans,...the answer to a koan is in its dissolution.

 

Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, In a state of non-meditation, you attain [the vividness beyond concept, imagination, and projection]. As Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Of course it is difficult for someone blissed out on the opium of a cleansed body, yoga, or meditation to realize the futility of such distractions.

 

Your post has so many great quotes - did you have anything you would like to add that you have actually come to "know"

Nothing you quoted was in context and much of what you related is out of sink with the teachings of the teachers you quoted.

 

Solace is best found from a pet or a friend - I have not found solace from meditation and other practice.

 

We can find short quotes from every master in history that will tell us in so few words that "we are but a moment away" from enlightenment.

 

Over rating anything is just exactly that - it is projection.

 

Broad strokes of indifference may feel manly but they are as dog headed as they are impish.

 

Your first five paragraphs are pure robotics - dropping out of you as unconsciously as bumping into walls in the dark.

 

Try speaking from yourself - you will find you don't "know" so much.

[ChiDragon]

This, being the forum that it is, is surely filled with those who question the very nature of reality. As we understand it, there is one accepted academic method for determining the reality around us, and multiple accepted spiritual methods for determining reality.

I think, one of the most widely accepted, yet most fallible method for determining the nature of reality is the induction of the spiritual, or mystical, experience.

Now, science has given us a form to follow for determining the most likely scenario. This is called "the scientific method". Granted, there may yet be a more logical system for determining the causes and relationships between phenomena that we, as a young and ambitious organism, have not yet adopted. However, as it is, we do have a fairly reliable method passed down from the great giants of science.

 

How is it that so many see our physical world as troubled and riddled with half-truths, yet expect the astral / spiritual worlds to be nothing but truth and transparency?

 

I would like to ,make a proposition. That those who are truly interested in understanding the nature of reality, take a scientific approach to the spiritual world. And I don't mean comparing spiritual phenomena with scientific theory - such as many mystics do with string theory. I think that's a false identity and gives us zero results.

 

I don't know about you guys, but I find it extremely difficult to maintain a real-time presence once out of body. I will quickly find myself in a strange astral realm once I get too far from my body.

 

And by too far, I mean, literally leaving the room my body is in. All too often my astral experiences turn whacky and cartoony and deliver zero evidences of a reality beyond the physical.

 

So, the question: What is going on?

The purpose: to know, to grow, to ascend.

The way: practice practice practice, and take nothing for granted until you can verify and validate.

 

... am I missing something?

 

IMO Based on what you have said, you didn't miss anything.

You have reach the bottom of things as you've indicated in your avatar....

 

PS...

It seems to me that the astral world is macroscopic and the scientific world is microscopic.

Edited March 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Vmarco]

Your post has so many great quotes - did you have anything you would like to add that you have actually come to "know"

Nothing you quoted was in context and much of what you related is out of sink with the teachings of the teachers you quoted.

 

 

Everything I quote was in context with the context of my post. I don't give a squat about the messengers. For example, I often quote TS Eliot,...."Human kind cannot bear very much reality". As for TS Eliot the person,....I found him devoid of any meaningful contribution to the elevation of human beingness. As many are already aware of on TTB,...I also use quotes to identify the non-serious,...using their "knowledge" to determine if the quotes used were context with their predispositions about the author,...those who respond to quotes the way you have.

 

 

As for "knowing"....only ignorant people know. What I actually gnow is beyond your comprehension,...thus quotes serve as a bridge or device for those who may be serious enough to venture into the liminal zone between duality’s sciential sentience and the sapiential consciousness of nonduality, in which direct relationships with authentic teachers are often unavailable.

 

Absolute truth is only realized through gnowledge,...however, to uncover gnowledge, one must first let go of the attachment to knowledge for one's identity.

 

As one recognizes the 6 senses in their daily activities (what gnowledge is not), one allows space so-to-say, for gnowledge to enter. Gnowledge is NOT a result of the past or a perceived now, as is knowledge. There is NEVER thought or thinking in the Now,...all thought, thinking, and knowing are in the past. When you realize that, that you cannot think in the Now, your life view will dramatically be altered,...and gnowledge will be Welcomed.

 

'Gnothi Seauton', as inscribed over the portico of the Temple at Delphi, means Gnow Thyself, not Know Thyself. In other words, those who say they know, most likely do not Gnow. Some cultures like the Egyptian and Maya of Mesoamerica, thought so lowly of the brain, or sciential mind, that before burials it was sucked out and discarded, whereas the heart was treasured.

 

Today’s scientially minded may think such a philosophy as primitive, but keep in mind that the Egyptians for example were quite aware of the brain. Evidence clearly shows that the Egyptians had an intimate knowledge of brain functions, for instance that the left cerebral hemisphere controls the right side of the body. As was the case with the Tantrika and Vajrayana in Asia, and the Maya of Mesoamerica, Egyptians seemed to have been aware that the brain is the vessel for the lowest consciousness, whereas from the heart arose the highest consciousness. Ancient cultures appear to have discarded the brain because they had a higher awareness of self, a non-ego self, that has been quite veiled in the contemporary cultures of the last few millennium.

 

Knowledge proceeds through what Buddha called the five skandhas or Aggregates, which includes sensual perceptions and conditioned experience by way of the psyche or personal consciousness. To know is to comprehend noologically, through intellect-based thought.

 

Gnowledge is to understand through metasensory awareness and unconditioned experience through the thymos or impersonal consciousness. To gnow is to understand by way of gnosis or Right Discernment, the gnowledge that Siddhartha Gautama, the "Sage of the Shakyas," implied when he said, be a Lamp unto Thyself.

 

Gnowledge, Prajna, Bodhi, and Tao are feminine nouns. Wisdom is said to be a feminine (Yin) noun, but the word, as defined, only points to the masculine (Yang),..wisdom literally means knowledge accumulated through philosophic or scientific learning. Knowledge is fully masculine (Yang). Knowledge is of, and fully dedicated to, the skandhas (form, senses, perception, thinking, and the knowledge of that thinking). Thinking is always (irrefutably) in the past.

[Spotless]

Looking forward to hearing from You at some point Vmarco

[Aaron]

The world is always changing, and though we are the world we see, we tend to believe we are separate from this world. We are no more separate from the world than we are our finger or hair, in fact it's our perception that causes us to believe that we are. The fact we say "our finger" or "our hair" shows us exactly how delusional we are. We are not "our hair", in that we possess our hair, so much as we are our hair. Just as we are our finger. Neither is a separate entity. We like to think we are drivers in a vehicle, not realizing we are that vehicle, and it wont be until we understand that we are the vehicle, that we can also begin to understand that we are the universe around us, just as the bacteria in our stomach is us. We are separate from nothing, yet the perception that we choose to see the world, the way we were taught to view and interact with the world, causes us to believe that we are not the world, or even a part of it so much, as a separate world altogether. And perhaps in a deluded sense we are, but it is certainly deluded, for there is nothing that points to this, in fact the scientist and spiritualist will both tell you that we are everything and everything is us.

 

So with that long paragraph, I bid you adieu and good luck on your exploration of reality. Open your eyes, not only so you can see without, but also within, for the answers you seek are not without, but within, for the face you are searching for, the face of creation, was the face you wore before you were born, and the only image of that face that exists is within you, not without.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

Looking forward to hearing from You at some point Vmarco

 

Again,...your predisposition that the only worthy person to interact with, is one who believes that they are separate from everything else,...thus, you are unable to hear VMarco,...not because VMarco hasn't tried,...but because you're not interested in truth.

 

Experience born of belief, can only be experienced through the condition of that belief. That is to say,...your beliefs are preventing you from hearing VMarco. And that is fine,...as, according to your posts above, you already did the spirituality thing,...you have years devoted to knowing and seeing,...thus, to realize all you knowing and seeing is somehow meaningless, is not very palatable.

 

But, "Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant...." The Great Liberation

[Spotless]

Again,...your predisposition that the only worthy person to interact with, is one who believes that they are separate from everything else,...thus, you are unable to hear VMarco,...not because VMarco hasn't tried,...but because you're not interested in truth.

 

Experience born of belief, can only be experienced through the condition of that belief. That is to say,...your beliefs are preventing you from hearing VMarco. And that is fine,...as, according to your posts above, you already did the spirituality thing,...you have years devoted to knowing and seeing,...thus, to realize all you knowing and seeing is somehow meaningless, is not very palatable.

 

But, "Soon we all will die; our hopes and fears will be irrelevant...." The Great Liberation

You are talking about your idea of me and your assumptions regarding that idea you have of me. I think we are all interested in what you might actually have to say.

[Vmarco]

You are talking about your idea of me and your assumptions regarding that idea you have of me. I think we are all interested in what you might actually have to say.

 

No,...I'm addressing what you write in your posts,...whereas you are addressing your opinions about what you believe some teacher had in mind regarding quotes I used in context of my posts.

 

For example,...Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

 

Perhaps Wei Wi Wei meant something quite contrary to the context of my post,...so what. Although I've enjoyed the writings of Wei Wu Wei, the post was about what I actually had to say. Yet to you,...as per your posts, reject that my posts are about what I have to say,...believing the quotes I use, somehow detract from what I'm offering.

 

I'm not a teacher, or a guru,...don't want a following, nor to follow,... yet am always interested in honest communion,...which is likely the most difficult treasure to be had on the planet. In fact, nearly all the well known teachers today, are dishonest.

Arthur Blessitt, Eric Yoffie, Damon Denson, David Barton, Jesse Duplantis, Ali al-Sistani, Thich Nhat Hanh, Leila Ahmed, Neale Donald Walsch, Joseph Ratzinger, Gibril Haddad,...just to name a few of the highly thought of as Top People by society,...are disgustingly dishonest.

 

As Jed McKenna correctly said, "99.9% of the World's so-called wisdom, East and West, for the purposes of awakening, is about as useful as a glass of warm spit with a hair in it."

.

[Spotless]

 

I suppose that many folks imagine that the "spiritual path" is similiar to what you described,...even Siddhartha fell for the same dead-end course,...although he eventually went further.

 

Meditation belongs to of the world of hope and fear,...meditation is a diversion one uses until they realize that it will not lead to enlightenment. Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

Non-meditation is a topic that will surely upset millions who have vested meaning, money, and measure, sitting on a cushion. Millions believe that meditation is the path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment. Surely, meditation has provided solace to many, but solace is a temporary thing.

 

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as superior to those who don't formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as better than non-users.

 

Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him. Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation, more bone than skin, when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say an appreciation filled him from this meal, and as he recovered his physical strength, through the state of appreciation, he realized the Dependent Origination from which suffering arises.

 

The American Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to Source."

 

The State of Appreciation; that is threshold to enlightenment, not meditation. Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

 

Jigme Lingpa said, "The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...."

 

All Heart-centered people are non-meditators. If some "teacher" is a pusher of meditation, as some sort of practice to enlightenment,...they are false teachers of enlightenment.

 

There are many, many distorted views of enlightenment,...and ways to uncover it. The path to enlightenment is simply honesty,...and what enlightenment actually points to is the awareness of the way things are. None of the 6 sense sensations arising from a cleansed body, yoga, or meditation, can uncover the reality of enlightenment.

 

A cleansed body, yoga, or meditation are like Zen Koans,...the answer to a koan is in its dissolution.

 

Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, In a state of non-meditation, you attain [the vividness beyond concept, imagination, and projection]. As Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Of course it is difficult for someone blissed out on the opium of a cleansed body, yoga, or meditation to realize the futility of such distractions.

You can find below the complete cut & paste from Vmarco: Non-Meditation

• January 22 · 12:00 PM
• Flying Star

Non-meditation is a topic that will surely upset millions who have vested meaning, money, and measure, sitting on a cushion. Millions believe that meditation is the path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment. Surely, meditation has provided solace to many, but solace is a temporary thing.

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

Who is honestly aware of anyone realizing happiness, compassion or enlightenment through meditation? (see the disscusion "Compassion?"). Before anyone gets too upset, the topic here is "Awareness of Non-meditation," that is, to simply be aware that meditation may merely be a stepping stone, not the goal.

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as superior to those who don't formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as better than non-users.

Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him. Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation, more bone than skin, when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say an appreciation filled him from this meal, and as he recovered his physical strength, through the state of appreciation, he realized the Dependent Origination from which suffering arises.

The American Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to Source."

The State of Appreciation; that is threshold to enlightenment, not meditation. Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

Meditation is in the head. Jigme Lingpa said, "The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." (see the discussion "Heart-Mind"). Those familiar with the Short Path of Dzogchen have likely heard of non-meditation,... resting in the evenness of being, that is beyond hope and fear. Meditation belongs to of the world of hope and fear.

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope? hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess. How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present.

In all samadhis (or states within the 6 consciousness' that preceed enlightenment) except sahaja, the practioner or yogi continues to go and come.

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

Buddha said, "the Tathagata does not come and go."

Refuge in sahaja (or Short Path), which is not preoccuppied with meditation or yoga techniques, is a permanent and effortless state of realization.

Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, "In a state of non-meditation, you attain [the vividness beyond concept, imagination, and projection]. As Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Of course it is difficult for someone blissed out on opium

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!.. "To go, to come, beyond going and coming, into complete going and coming, where enlightenment is welcomed"

"...no belief is true; gurus, meditation, and spiritual teachings are all gentle deceptions meant to soothe the inner coward, not forge the inner hero." Jed McKenna

 

-------end excerpt------------ take directly from a piece at: http://www.meetup.com/Full-Spectrum-Consciousness/events/93980722/

 

How was it that the Robotic texture of Vmarco's original quote shown at the top, lead me to clip only one paragragh and find his article to be not an original to this blog but a cut and paste from another time and place.

 

I had mentioned time and again to tell us something from you - and you refused.

And now we see all along that your thread was nothing original to begin with - you cut and paste your position - how often do you do this? Is this your agenda? Cosy up to the computer and Cut and Paste what appears to be actual genuine responses to someone?

Edited March 10, 2013 by Spotless

[Tibetan_Ice]

Further, Vmarco, you said:

Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him.

 

You are right. Few people realize that. That is because it is not true.

It was not meditation that 'nearly killed him', it was asceticism. And, he meditated after recovering.

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha}

 

According to the early Buddhist texts,^{[web 6]} after realizing that meditative jhana was the right path to awakening, but that extreme asceticism didn't work, Gautama discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way^{[web 6]}—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification.^{[web 6]} In a famous incident, after becoming starved and weakened, he is said to have accepted milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata.^{[web 7]} Such was his emaciated appearance that she wrongly believed him to be a spirit that had granted her a wish.^{[web 7]}

Following this incident, Gautama was famously seated under a pipal tree—now known as the Bodhi tree—in Bodh Gaya, India, when he vowed never to arise until he had found the truth.^[37]Kaundinya and four other companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After a reputed 49 days of meditation, at the age of 35, he is said to have attained Enlightenment.^[37][38]

^TI

[Vmarco]

How was it that the Robotic texture of Vmarco's original quote shown at the top, lead me to clip only one paragragh and find his article to be not an original to this blog but a cut and paste from another time and place.

 

I had mentioned time and again to tell us something from you - and you refused.

And now we see all along that your thread was nothing original to begin with - you cut and paste your position - how often do you do this? Is this your agenda? Cosy up to the computer and Cut and Paste what appears to be actual genuine responses to someone?

 

 

If you spent 1% of the time to respond to my posts, as you do to researching spew, that is, attacking my use of C&P original, genuine information (from me), perhaps I'd see some sort of integrity underlying your 40 years of meditation.

 

My response to your posts using genuine VMarco statements, although offensive to you, were quite appropriate,...and once more, you've shown your confused monkey mind to be uninterested in anything genuine.

 

As I began my first response to a post by you,...

 

 

I suppose that many folks imagine that the "spiritual path" is similiar to what you described,...even Siddhartha fell for the same dead-end course,...although he eventually went further.

 

And here we are,...instead of any semblance of a discussion on going FURTHER (the name of Ken Kesey's bus, whom I first met in '75) ,...you persist with rummaging through the past, to claim how you caught me saying the same thing,...and thus such statement could not possibly be genuine, if found repeated in some previous dialogue,...even for a mediocre fellow like yourself.

 

So,...what have you proved? That repeating a statement is disengenuine? That the one week lecture you attended was genuine because the lecturer never uttered those words before?

 

I can assure you that you are not, by your definition of "a moment"...a moment away from enlightenment. You are too entrained into the past, which doesn't even exist, to be anywhere near an ability to recognize enlightenment,...that is, an awareness of the way things are.

 

You can deny the fact that you're currently not even close to being a moment away from enlightenment,...but that does not make the fact unfactual.

 

A Buddhist said, "Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. "Is there a God?" and you say, "Yes, God is." Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, "I don’t know.". . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge."

 

And yet, that is where you are,...spewing things you don't understand, and pretending you do. Your every post reflects dishonesty.

 

When a child (a sophomore in your case) is being instructed on the alphabet, the alphabet is repeated until the child grasps it. For you,...you believe,...as per your posts,...that if someone would dare repeat the alphabet to one who is unaware of recognizing the alphabet, that person is a ungenuine robot.

 

My suggestion,...stick with meditation,...and pray you can be reborn into a better existence,...because it is quite doubtful you'll wake up in your current delusion.

[Vmarco]

You are right. Few people realize that. That is because it is not true.

It was not meditation that 'nearly killed him', it was asceticism. And, he meditated after recovering.

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha}

 

 

^TI

 

Nice to meet someone who was there,...Prajnaparamita must be incorrect,...likewise the Vajrayana story of Sujata,...and your belief must be the correct view. But of course,....Buddha's meditation, to the point of being (as sometimes described) more bones than flesh, had nothing to do with meditation. Of course not. He should have meditated without the asceticism.

 

On the other hand,...if you believe meditation leads to enlightenment,...go for it. If you take it as far as you can, you will realize that meditation will not uncover enlightenment,...it is impossible. Thus, your comments only show to me that you have no interest in enlightenment,...just meditation.

 

Buddha did not have an interest in enlightenment either,...his interest was in the reason for dukkha. When he uncovered the reason,...by consequence,...he uncovered enlightenment. However,...one cannot uncover enlightenment seeking meditation.

 

Sorry about that,...guess everything you cherish as meaningful, is simply meaningless.

[Marblehead]

Sorry about that,...guess everything you cherish as meaningful, is simply meaningless.

Ah, my old useful/useless concept. What is meaningful for one may be meaningless for another.

[Vmarco]

Ah, my old useful/useless concept. What is meaningful for one may be meaningless for another.

 

Meaningful/meaningless in my context should not be viewed as either subjective, nor objective,...but from the point of view of honesty. Honesty implying,...can anything honest arise from the 6 senses? This is predominately a Daoist forum after all.

 

Of course, nearly everyone wants their life to have meaning, and reach for things to make their life appear meaningful,...however, for those serious enough,...honest enough,...to really pursue the question, "Who Am I"...meaninglessness rises quickly, like a snowball to an avalanche.

 

For those who do go deeply into the question, "Who am I"...there will be an understanding, that it is impossible to uncover "Who I am"...without a realization of "When I am."

 

"When I am" is the last stepping stone before bodhicitta,..."when" obliterates the 6 senses,...rendering them meaningless.

 

When goes beyond concepts. Concepts are all conditions of time. There is no Present/Now/Instant/Tao in time.

[Vmarco]

Meaningful....considered as having value or purpose. A Buddhist said, “We condemn the real, and we enforce the unreal because the unreal is going to be helpful in an unreal society, and the unreal is going to be convenient. . . . A child is born in a society, and a society is already there with its fixed rules, regulations, behaviors, and moralities, which the child has to learn. When he will grow up, he will become false. Then children will be born to him. He will help make them false. This goes on and on."

[C T]

"Can anything honest arise from the 6 senses" asks Vmarco.

 

Honestly, the 6 senses arise in conjunction with whats arising. Ultimately, nothing arises, so, it follows that ultimately, the 6 senses exist only as convenience. You are putting ideas into people's heads (again) that there are some inherent fawltiness with the 6 senses (this is not Fawlty Towers, mind you). This puts your understanding and motives under scrutiny. How do you expect to even sensibly write something here, as an example, if a few of your sense faculties are not activated? By your own logic, do we dismiss all your assertions as dishonest? They must be, according to you.

 

There are no 'eyes' save for that which is seen. Its an impermanent relationship, one arises, the other takes a name. When not seeing, eyes may as well be ears, just another convenient label.

[Vmarco]

"Can anything honest arise from the 6 senses" asks Vmarco.

 

Honestly, the 6 senses arise in conjunction with whats arising. Ultimately, nothing arises, so, it follows that ultimately, the 6 senses exist only as convenience.

On that level,...of course,...ultimately nothing arises,...however, I was once again involved with child speak,...that is, attempting to dumb things down for the intelligence level here. If you flowed with the above sentence, instead of degrading into an attack, we could have been onto a meaningful dialogue.

 

The flaw of the 6 senses,...as every Buddhist should understand, is that if left to their device, which is to say, are clung to for one's ultimate identity,...dukkha will never be understood.

How do you expect to even sensibly write something here, as an example, if a few of your sense faculties are not activated?

How did Buddha do it? Or Avalokitesvara?

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara

 

Why did Lao Tzu say, , "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go."

 

Why have Buddha's said, "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real."

 

"But if they reject arising and ceasing and uphold the eternal truth, an enduring light will appear, and with that, the sense-organs and defiling objects will disappear." Shurangama sutra

 

Where are my posts different from the texts of Prajnaparamita and Daoism?

[Marblehead]

Now, you know I am not going to let this go unscathed.

Meaningful/meaningless in my context should not be viewed as either subjective, nor objective,...but from the point of view of honesty. Honesty implying,...can anything honest arise from the 6 senses? This is predominately a Daoist forum after all.

I am at a disadvantage as I have only five senses and a pretty good functioning brain. No, I don't have a third eye either.

 

Yes, this is predominately a Daoist forum so unless just fooling around I speak from a Taoist perspective. Philosophical, mind you.

 

Honesty. Really. Let's incorporate that.

 

Of course, nearly everyone wants their life to have meaning, and reach for things to make their life appear meaningful,...however, for those serious enough,...honest enough,...to really pursue the question, "Who Am I"...meaninglessness rises quickly, like a snowball to an avalanche.

Well, of course I want my life to have meaning, especially to myself. I know who I am. Most people do. Many think they are more than they really are and others think they are less than they really are. Many reasons for this. I don't make snowballs here in Florida.

 

For those who do go deeply into the question, "Who am I"...there will be an understanding, that it is impossible to uncover "Who I am"...without a realization of "When I am."

When? Right now. Who? Me. Separate from you. This is good though as you wouldn't be comfortable with me attached to you and I wouldn't be comfortable with you attached to me. You are you and I am me. It was meant to be that way. We are each one of the ten thousand things. Oh, and yes, I have been me every since I took my first breath and I will continue to be me until I take my last breath. Sure, I have changed over time just as you have. But I know where I am, when I am and who I am.

 

"When I am" is the last stepping stone before bodhicitta,..."when" obliterates the 6 senses,...rendering them meaningless.

I never want my five senses to be meaningless. In my old age I have lost much of my capacities I had when I was younger but they still work. And I hope they will continue to work until I have taken my last breath.

 

When goes beyond concepts. Concepts are all conditions of time. There is no Present/Now/Instant/Tao in time.

No, When includes the past, the present, and the future. For all practicle purposes time is linear. We are born and then we die. A star is born and then it dies. Planet earth was born and one day it will die. That's just the way life is.

 

Concepts are understandings of the brain. If one has no brain there are, for that person, no concepts. (Actually, there is no life either because we need the brain to become aware of and interpret what the five senses are perceiving.

 

But there still is no purpose.