The Question, The Purpose, The Way

[Marblehead]

Meaningful....considered as having value or purpose. A Buddhist said, “We condemn the real, and we enforce the unreal because the unreal is going to be helpful in an unreal society, and the unreal is going to be convenient. . . . A child is born in a society, and a society is already there with its fixed rules, regulations, behaviors, and moralities, which the child has to learn. When he will grow up, he will become false. Then children will be born to him. He will help make them false. This goes on and on."

I think the Buddha got lost with this one.

 

But I will agree that much of our acculturation is meaningless. That is why Lao Tzu told us that we should unlearn until we have returned to our natural self.

[Vmarco]

I think the Buddha got lost with this one.

 

But I will agree that much of our acculturation is meaningless. That is why Lao Tzu told us that we should unlearn until we have returned to our natural self.

Yes,...and from my perception, all my posts have that theme,...how can we recognize the false (things learned) as the false.

 

A Buddha said, "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real."

 

Surely correct,...however, will just as surely isolate such "wise man" from society at large.

 

We engage within a world that perceives things arising, and thus speak in a dumb-downed language of things arising,...when in honesty, nothing arises.

 

Nothing that is perceived to arise is real,...in fact, nothing perceived to arise has any connection whatsoever with what is real.

 

Both Prajnaparamita and Daoism point to a consciousness beyond the 6 senses - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking,...however, to uncover that consciousness, the 6 senses must agree that they are false,...that is, unreal. If one believes that the 6 senses, which arise from the 6 sense organs, are real,...then how is one ever going to uncover what Prajnaparamita and Daoism point to?

[Vmarco]

Haha meditation is merely one side of the way to Enlightenment. There's other parts to it. The thing is that you say that then you forget to mention the practice that one does to actually see truth. I guess that's the problem since a lot of the stuff is actually in China written down and we don't have all of it. Such as the Yogacarabhumi Shastra. It's not completely translated into English although the path towards enlightenment is actually translated.

 

You guys keep arguing over seeing Truth but when I actually read your guys comments sometimes it's obvious that there is a level of confusion in you. I'm sick and tired of everyone talking about seeing truth without even mentioning the practices.

 

Westerners love practices, such as meditation,...there must be an indoctrinated reason for it, although I haven't given it much attention.

 

An enlightened has no practice,...they are aware of the way things are. Practice, will not uncover the way things are,...but merely,...possibly,...prepare one to let go of the ideas that practices afflict one with.

 

Although I wasn't there,...I'm quite certain that meditation did not uncover enlightenment for Buddha,...it was Appreciation, that uncovered enlightenment.

 

Pay attention to this quote,...there is a gem of prajna in it,...Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you uncover Source."

[Vmarco]

"maybe I could tell you to cut of one ounce of your body everyday until you can answer the question 'What is True.' Any ounce, as long as it's an ounce. That should bring you quickly into focus. Light a fire under you. If you had to do this, cut off an ounce of your body every day, how much time do you think you would waste on meditation, on attending Satsung, or reading the latest spititual best seller? Not bloody much. You would soon become an enlightenment machine,...sleep and food would be reduced to barest minimums. Relationships and activities once deemed eccential, would be forgotten. You would enter into a burning mania of single-pointedness. Soon, anything other than the question, 'What is True,' would seem comically irrelevant. " Jed McKenna

[Vmarco]

The problem is what you mean by meditation?

I must ask you are you enlightened?

Can you define enlightened?

 

I define it as the Prajnaparamita does,...an awareness of how things are.

 

To paraphrase Sakyamuni upon his enlightenment,...Dukkha is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are,...the 6 senses can only perceive things other than they are.

[Marblehead]

The funny thing is that if you're Buddha, you're not supposed to be confused otherwise you're not a Buddha haha

Hey, I have been confused many times. Once just today. I guess I will never be the Buddha.

[Marblehead]

A Buddha said, "A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real."

 

 

You are doing a really great job today of posting thing that I totally disagree with.

[Marblehead]

Nothing that is perceived to arise is real,...in fact, nothing perceived to arise has any connection whatsoever with what is real.

 

 

So what the heck (I was going to say fuck but changed my mind) is real?

[Marblehead]

I wouldn't say never. It's hard work which is why I get mad when people keep telling people to see truth but how can you see truth without some means to reach it. Which is why they give meditation saying to meditate on. Even throwing away everything can be a sort of meditation. Focusing on seeing truth or the saying "Who am I" brings you to state of samadhi and dhyana.

That's the secret. Samadhi and dhyana. Then going past those of course

You are speaking words I do not understand. For all practical purposes I speak only English.

 

No, I am not going to throw everything away. That would be stupid.

 

Dude, this is not the past where you can go up to cherry blossoms and become enlightened. Those people did eons of meditation work including building up their merit, carrying vows, and doing virtuous work.

And after all those years they aree still just as screwed up as they were when they started. One cannot change one's true nature. Yes, we can change our behavior. We can even become plastic.

 

I still have not been given an acceptable definition of the word "enlightenment" so speaking of being such has no meaning for me.

 

Determining what is real and what isn't is still being discriminative. If you are still discriminating, you're still stuck in the skandha of sensation and the rest of the skandhas. So there isn't any discrimination between real and unreal.

Yes, I discriminate all the time. There are dead, brown leaves in my yard and I have been picking and vacuuming them up because I think they are unsightly. I have even pulled a few weeds as they are plants I don't want growing in my flower gardens.

 

There will always be for me a difference between what is real and what is not. There will also always be a difference between a truth and a falsity.

 

Yes, you are right. I am not a Buddha. But then I never wanted to be one so that in its self is say quite a lot.

[dawei]

On that level,...of course,...

 

In the many posts over the years I have read from you, this may be the essence of all of it. If one is understanding life/reality from the sense/perception/experience, then on that level you have what you have; senses/perceptions/experiences.

 

I think you have consistently talked of a level (or dare I say reality) beyond this.

 

I personally agree with your position about meditation and glad you cite Chinese Buddhism to show how they chided the proverbial polishing of the stone to make it a mirror. But as was mentioned: Westerners like to practice and they like meditation as it seems a gateway to a higher level of understanding.

 

It seems to me that most of it is simply meant to remove all dependence on the built up layers of life. So while I would personally say that there are many paths, it has probably been that meditation has some level of success in the past to quiet the mind and provide an opening. So meditation takes a front row practice.

 

I guess instead of meditating to let go, why not just let go? Maybe the layers are just strong and that includes layers which have told us that meditation and practice is needed to overcome layers. That may be the irony: Some layers are used to remove other layers. Like an onion, what do we find in the center once all the layers are peeled back...

 

I guess I wanted to say that I appreciate your posts and consistent position whether I completely agree or not.

[Marblehead]

So there are limitation to spitting out information like VMarco does because it won't lead to enlightenment by spitting out information like that. You need good commentary and someone who actually realized it.

Hehehe. I'll give you an A+ for trying.

 

I enjoy talking with Vmarco cause I get the chance to bring him back down to earth and the real world now and again.

 

And I agree that there are many paths to the same destination. Destination? Death. That's it.

 

Me? I've gotta' live until I die. That's the only Truth I know of.

[ChiDragon]

 

Me? I've gotta' live until I die. That's the only Truth I know of.

We all knew that soon or later.....???

[Marblehead]

Yeah, there is a time to think and a time to not think. But we need care for the body all the time.

[Marblehead]

Nice that we are in agreement here, me from the Taoist perspective and you from the Buddhist perspective. There really are a lot of Buddhist concepts that I am in agreement with.

 

Yes, one can attain the Tao but what is the point if your body is sick?

 

Exactly. There would be no point, would there? I may be old but I am not lame.

[hydrogen]

So what the heck (I was going to say fuck but changed my mind) is real?

 

What your eye sees is real. What your ear hears is real. What you nose smells is real. What you tongue tastes is real. What your body feels is real.

 

If you're happy with them, you're in Tao.

 

If you think they're fake or want something better, good luck with that.

Edited March 11, 2013 by hydrogen

[Marblehead]

What your eyes see is real. What your ear hear is real. What you nose smell is real. What you tongue taste is real. What your body feels is real.

 

If you're happy with them, you're in Tao.

 

If you think they're fake or want something better, good luck with that.

Ah!, I love people who speak my language.

[Vmarco]

What your eye sees is real. What your ear hears is real. What you nose smells is real. What you tongue tastes is real. What your body feels is real.

 

If you're happy with them, you're in Tao.

 

"All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once." René Descartes

 

To uncover the Tao....

 

"the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao-tzu

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu never said to let the senses go. That quote above is from a translation that has proven itself invalid.

 

And Descartes died still questioning instead of living and enjoying what the senses brought to his life.

 

Sad, I think, that so many of us feel the need to ask so many questions, most of which have no single answer, instead of enjoying the life we are afforded.

[AussieFrog]

lol. Wow - that all took quite an interesting turn.

Some very helpful insights and thoughts.

What has intrigued me is Vmarco's pretense that meditation is a deceptive illusion.

I appreciate the many rebuttals, and mostly agree with them. It seems there was a later understanding that Vmarco was being extremely unclear about what he was talking about.

However - either way, I think it is fallacious to say that meditation is a trap of any kind. Meditation, especially specific meditations bring the mind under the will, calming it, controlling it, and lessening the "chaos" that is the mind. For all intents and purposes, meditation seems to have given way to more and more mystical experiences and chances to investigate the spiritual. Which I believe is a necessary experience to come to any sort or form of understanding of the realities.

I do understand this "be in the now" stuff, and that there are other things one must master in order to "ascend" - however, meditation is the base exercise which allows for mastery of these other areas of life, and living it with the will is the execution thereof. That's my opinion on the matter. To say that meditation is a ruse and a trap - well, if that's all you do, if you deny your other responsibilities to meditate - yeah, that's the case with anything. There must be balance and control of all things. But meditation is one of the key utilities in sorting out the self well enough to be able live with full purpose. A ruse/trap? Not for me.
Interesting nonetheless - I see some merit the the concern. But I can't say I agree with it the way you present it.

[Stosh]

A drop of water in a sea is indistinguishable

Seriously , how could one say where it was or what it was ?

 

So I dont know what 'real' means outside of conventional usage of the word.

 

What is realness?

Is it the attitude that one has towards the physical world which constitutes some kind of value to the word ?

Everyone knows of their own mind to a degree , so ,wouldnt that be reaL ?

If the world is unreal and the mind is real , OR , the world is real and the mind is unreal , What the heck difference would it make to anybody ?

other than- if one considered that the things they should do are supposed to have relative priority over the other relating to its ' realness '.

dispose of the word 'real' (other than to speak conventionally in opposition to Fake ,it has no meaning since everything that exists is real )

In discussing realness one can approach what folks find important and in looking at those things one can remove the pressures folks heap upon themselves.

Oh its so very important to impress the parents neighbors authorities .....I will do so! Because thats real !

Oh your suffering is all in your mind , .....I disregard it., because thats unreal !

Oh I never accomplished anything important .. I cannot die so unfulfilled! my legacy is all that is real and lasts!

Oh I have no money now , I am such a schmo because I spent it all on my wifes happiness ! and thats not real!

 

Dropping the realness quotient , what is it you would do ?

Would you lavish on your loved ones just because you loved them ?

Would you gaily play your life , or knuckle down and ' bust a hump ' till you die?

Would you worry about spilt milk ?

Would you suddenly find it all that much more profitable to rob banks or murder folks?

 

Or perhaps , just perhaps , the only thing it would do is promote a light hearted perspective and freedom from a great deal of burden.

Your answer is your own, I just posted this rhetorically, musing on realness.

[Marblehead]

To say that meditation is a ruse and a trap - well, ...

I have noticed that when many members here speak about meditation what they are really talking about from my understanding is self hypnosis and not what I would call meditation. But then, that's me.

[Stosh]

I have noticed that when many members here speak about meditation what they are really talking about from my understanding is self hypnosis and not what I would call meditation. But then, that's me.

Can you expound on that just a tad , the difference between them blah blah blah? Its a curious consideration.

[Marblehead]

If the world is unreal and the mind is real , OR , the world is real and the mind is unreal , What the heck difference would it make to anybody ?

Well, I believe that both are real but no, it doesn't make a lot of difference because it doesn't really effect my life as I live it.

[Stosh]

Well, I believe that both are real but no, it doesn't make a lot of difference because it doesn't really effect my life as I live it.

Makes sense.

[Marblehead]

Can you expound on that just a tad , the difference between them blah blah blah? Its a curious consideration.

I hope I can explain properly. If I miss something please question me as this is a fairly important subject to me as well.

 

IMO,

 

Meditation is for the purpose of clearing our mind; to remove the stress that builds up in our mind resulting from just living in the material world. If we stay stressed we will cause ourself ill health. Most heart attacks are a result of stress. Therefore meditation is for forgetting what has caused us stress or at least reduce the stress to a point where we can deal with it.

 

Self hypnosis is mostly for the purpose of learning something. We concentrate on something until it becomes embedded in our unconscious mind to the point that it become instinctual. Whatever it is, we can cause ourself to believe it is an absolute truth. We can hypnotize ourself so that we will truely believe whatever it is we are wanting to be true. A lot of people do this unconsciously and arrive at all types of absolute truths regardless of the fact that there is no proof to support the absolute truth they have created in their own mind.