An Examination of the Three Jewels Part One- Compassion

[Aaron]

It's seems like it's been awhile since we had a good discussion about something that can actually have a deep impact on someone's life in a practical and experiential way. I know from experience that practicing the three treasures can do just that, so I wanted to start a discussion about each of the treasures, with a final section about how they all come together. I chose not to have the discussion in the Taoist Discussion section because I wanted people to be able to express their own ideas on these concepts, even if those ideas might stem from other spiritual or religious ideas. With that in mind, I didn't start this topic to question the validity of these practices, if you want to do that, please start a new topic, rather this series of topics is to discuss how each of these treasures can help to better our own lives and understanding of Tao. Referencing the chapters is always nice, but I hope that we're all familiar enough with the Tao Te Ching that it wouldn't be completely necessary.

 

The first treasure, as most of us probably know, is compassion, sometimes referred to as mercy, other times love. I think it is the most important treasure, because without it, the other two treasures really can't be practiced in a spiritual way. In fact, for most spiritual traditions, it is believed that all spiritual practice depends on one's own understanding compassion, or to put it another way, one cannot hope to grow spiritually without understanding compassion and practicing compassion.

 

With that said, we should ask ourselves what exactly compassion is? We can always refer to the dictionary's definition, which is an understanding of empathy of another person's suffering, but at the same time, is that all it is? Is it just enough to empathize? Can we simply understand another person's suffering and hence gain a deeper spiritual awareness from this empathy? I don't think so and I think it's this underlying meaning that causes many translators to choose the words mercy and love in compassion's stead.

 

In the eyes of Lao Tzu compassion was not some abstract thought process, but a very real and physical response that is a result of our empathizing with another person. Lao Tzu, I believe, was asking us to respond to our compassion, to act on our compassion, to ease the suffering of others, for as he said, "only he who is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the world is worthy of ruling the world." So it's not enough simply to have compassion for others, to empathize with others, we must act on this relationship, understand the nature of it, and allow that nature to drive us towards a selfless desire to help others.

 

If we can honestly practice compassion, then we can honestly begin to be compassionate. Honestly is the important part, although not completely necessary, for who can question the motives of a man who provides for food for the hungry, or water for the thirsty, if they ultimately ask for nothing in return? In fact we should remember that there is nothing wrong with "faking it" until we are able to practice the act selflessly.

 

We should also remember that compassion isn't simply about giving material goods, but also giving of ourselves, cheering up someone who is sad, consoling someone who has lost a loved one, offering directions to someone who is lost, but it can also be offering advice to those who are on a path of self destruction, after all the good man is the teacher of the bad man, just as the bad man is the student of the good man.

 

The most important thing for us to consider is how far are we willing to go to offer compassion to another person? Are we willing to give ourselves entirely for the sake of others, or maybe more pointedly, are we required to do so? Well, the answer, in the case of those who want to rule the world, seems to be yes, but for the rest of us, perhaps we just need to do the best that we can?

 

I sincerely believe the more you do for others, the more you receive in return, especially when that kindness is offered selflessly. Just as the more we take from others, the less we will receive from others. It is our willingness to do something, simply for the sake of compassion that increases our understanding of the nature of compassion and ultimately a deeper understanding of the other treasures and our own human nature.

 

I know this is a bit short, in that I might've expanded on some of my ideas, but I'm very interested in hearing other people's opinion about this topic. My hope is that as a community we can expand on the concept of compassion and perhaps help each other to understand it more deeply and practice it selflessly.

 

Finally, please hold off on discussing the other treasures in depth until those threads have been started, but don't feel like you can't talk about them, especially if it can add some insight into our own understanding of compassion.

 

Aaron

 

[C T]

Yes, first fake it, then make it.

 

During the faking stage, one has two arms, but can always 'pretend' to have four, each one helping another, or even, helping oneself, perhaps to do better in some area of one's life which might require some attention. Obviously, two arms were inadequate, that's why the problem began in the first place, see? So, one 'grows' an extra pair of arms, for support. Naturally, please understand that this extra pair of arms is only a symbolic thought, or a metaphor for enlarging one's ability to generate and apply a greater resource in order to help address that particular area of one's life which requires attention. Hence, each time one feels 'snowed in' by the problematic issue, one immediately rouse up the assistance of an extra pair of hands to help 'clear the path' so that one can become mobile again. (mobile here have various connotations). Again and again, this is done, until the 'rousing' becomes effortless -- as this process gets more and more natural, which is a direct outcome of the issue getting more and more resolved, one will begin to actually get a real sense that its possible to access extra help when one faces the occasional problem, and this can be very useful. Of course, if the issue is not budging, then there probably is something not in place, perhaps one's focus is too loose or too tight. If this is the case, relax, and refocus with just the right tension. Its like tuning a guitar, neither too tight nor too loose.

 

The idea above can gradually be expanded in the sense that when is comfortable, relaxed and confident in one's ability to conjure an extra pair of hands when necessary, then one can move on up to the next rung, which is to learn how to generate yet another pair of hands, this time, to offer a friend, or a sibling, even a stranger, or an animal in distress, but, since now one only has two extra pairs of hands, one's assistance is still quite limited.

 

But with training, over time, more and more pairs of hands will appear, as one's scope for being able to bear other's burdens and lighten their load enlarges. In time, one may then simultaneously have 20 pairs of hands (metaphorically speaking, also not metaphorically speaking, as some people can actually mobilize many pairs of extra hands when they want to, in getting a group together for a good cause, or some voluntary work for charity, for example), each one of this extra support going out to help others in different ways and in various directions.

 

This is the reason why the image of Chenrezig or Guanyin is often depicted as a form with 1000 arms (with 1000 being another metaphor for limitless) -- this symbolises the timeless and unlimited capacity of the Bodhisattva of Compassion to render solace, healing and selfless assistance in all directions, instantly, without hesitation, from the highest heavens to the lowest depths of hell, in fact, transcending all limited human understanding of space and time.

 

So for those who have the desire and affinity to enlarge one's compassionate scope, it is encouraged that one should learn to form a reverent connection with Guanyin Pusa/Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara, and grow more arms (not those bangbang ones! ).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Homage to Chenrezig:

 

"From his eyes come forth the sun and the moon; from his brow, Mahesvara, the great God who creates life with a thunderbolt from his third eye; from his shoulders, Brahma and other gods; from his heart, Narayana, the soul of the universe; from his thighs, Saraswati, wife of Brahma and Goddess of wisdom, music and science; from his mouth, the winds; from his feet, the earth; from his stomach, Varuna, an emanation from the sun initiating the cycles of nature and the embodiment of truth. He is a lamp to the blind, a parasol for those devoured by the heat of the sun, and a stream to the thirsty. He takes away all fear from those who are afraid; he is a doctor to the sick, and he is father and mother to those who are lonely and unhappy..."

 

 

 

*hope this discussion yields immense benefits for everyone. Thanks to the OP.

[zanshin]

I think it's more than seeing suffering, but seeing past suffering to how beautiful people and things are or could be in their true nature. It's not all one way either, it might seem like the person who helps the poor, disabled or even terminally ill is the giving and compassionate one, yet sometimes the person in distress becomes the teacher and we have the opportunity to see how transcendant the human spirit can be. Compassion flows easily when we feel love, so sort of same thing. Blood follows qi, when we understand how all is connected, sacrifice becomes selfless. I don't disagree that it's okay to fake it, but like many things it's cyclical. Sometimes compassionate people need to allow themselves to withdraw and rest when they start to feel brittle and burnt out.

[manitou]

I keep the mindset that we are all One. The little black dots inside the eyes of another? Those are the same black spots that we have in our eyes - it is the blackness of Awareness that we all share to various degrees - and yet, somehow, we are all the same 'creature'. The animals have the black spots as well, so do insects. The invisible linefrom eye to eye, contact to contact, this is the 'web of awareness' that Castaneda refers to, the web that holds everything in place.

 

How not to be compassionate when we are all the same creature? If it has black dots in its eyes, I must love it as myself. (Actually, I've found that loving myself is the most difficult of all, and once this is overcome, true compassion can arise). For one who had spent many years hating myself and trying to self-destruct, my attitude is now the polar opposite.

 

It's taken many years of inner work. I have further to go.

 

The Sage became the Sage and developed the 3 treasures from within himself. How else? He did the inner work, he modified himself, he made mistakes, he corrected them. Until something of true beauty was forged.

 

Thank you for the topic, Aaron. I agree with you, this is not discussed enough.

[zanshin]

Maybe you all can give advice in a situation I am experiencing today. How do you relate and feel compassion for someone making really bad choices and being self destructive? This guy is a single dad who lost his wife to cancer. His youngest son (my son's good friend) is staying at my house today and I have a lot of compassion for the son. Another chapter in the story has me quite frustrated today. I used to have compassion for the dad, we're not close friends mostly thru the kids. I don't have much influence with him and don't want to burn my bridges by telling him what I think of his actions lately, because I want the connection so I can help the son if he needs it. I'm not happy today. Want to fix it; I can't.

[dawei]

Maybe you all can give advice in a situation I am experiencing today. How do you relate and feel compassion for someone making really bad choices and being self destructive? This guy is a single dad who lost his wife to cancer. His youngest son (my son's good friend) is staying at my house today and I have a lot of compassion for the son. Another chapter in the story has me quite frustrated today. I used to have compassion for the dad, we're not close friends mostly thru the kids. I don't have much influence with him and don't want to burn my bridges by telling him what I think of his actions lately, because I want the connection so I can help the son if he needs it. I'm not happy today. Want to fix it; I can't.

 

I can understand this. But you should make sure you completely accept him for who he is and where is his in his life. You can't change him, only he can. You can offer some guidance/advice/help but only if he really needs or wants it or is open to it. Being a objective player who can see the subjective going-ons play out in his life and his son's is not easy. But at some point he will realize you seem to not take his life faults personally but with compassion.

[manitou]

Also, his soul picked this path. He needs to walk it. He may be spiraling around for a long time. Something about not being able to lead a horse to water........

[Aaron]

Maybe you all can give advice in a situation I am experiencing today. How do you relate and feel compassion for someone making really bad choices and being self destructive? This guy is a single dad who lost his wife to cancer. His youngest son (my son's good friend) is staying at my house today and I have a lot of compassion for the son. Another chapter in the story has me quite frustrated today. I used to have compassion for the dad, we're not close friends mostly thru the kids. I don't have much influence with him and don't want to burn my bridges by telling him what I think of his actions lately, because I want the connection so I can help the son if he needs it. I'm not happy today. Want to fix it; I can't.

 

I feel for you. This is really a hard place to be. Without knowing more about the father and what state he is in there's not much I could offer as far as advice goes. Here is my suggestion though, try talking to him. Ask him in for a cup of coffee, sit down and let him know you care, not by simply saying it, but by showing through your actions that you care. He has lost his wife and sadly, many children who lose one parent, lose both parents through the process. It is sad, but the last thing you need to do is get wrapped up in that sadness yourself.

 

As far as the boy goes, let him know you care and are there for him. The most important thing children need is security in their life. If this boy knows he has security at his friend's home, that will go a long way towards helping him through his own loss. Hopefully his father will come around, but if he doesn't at least you did what you could for the boy. Remember adults are capable of caring for themselves, children are not. Care for the child, console the adult, and let time heal the wounds. Also, remember, as Dawei pointed out, no one is to blame here, so the last thing you should do is enter into this with the notion of blame. "Drop humanity, be done with justice, and the people will return to their natural affections." (TTC Chapter 19, tr. John C. H. Wu).

 

 

Aaron

Edited March 12, 2013 by Aaron

[Aaron]

Yes, first fake it, then make it.

 

During the faking stage, one has two arms, but can always 'pretend' to have four, each one helping another, or even, helping oneself, perhaps to do better in some area of one's life which might require some attention. Obviously, two arms were inadequate, that's why the problem began in the first place, see? So, one 'grows' an extra pair of arms, for support. Naturally, please understand that this extra pair of arms is only a symbolic thought, or a metaphor for enlarging one's ability to generate and apply a greater resource in order to help address that particular area of one's life which requires attention. Hence, each time one feels 'snowed in' by the problematic issue, one immediately rouse up the assistance of an extra pair of hands to help 'clear the path' so that one can become mobile again. (mobile here have various connotations). Again and again, this is done, until the 'rousing' becomes effortless -- as this process gets more and more natural, which is a direct outcome of the issue getting more and more resolved, one will begin to actually get a real sense that its possible to access extra help when one faces the occasional problem, and this can be very useful. Of course, if the issue is not budging, then there probably is something not in place, perhaps one's focus is too loose or too tight. If this is the case, relax, and refocus with just the right tension. Its like tuning a guitar, neither too tight nor too loose.

 

The idea above can gradually be expanded in the sense that when is comfortable, relaxed and confident in one's ability to conjure an extra pair of hands when necessary, then one can move on up to the next rung, which is to learn how to generate yet another pair of hands, this time, to offer a friend, or a sibling, even a stranger, or an animal in distress, but, since now one only has two extra pairs of hands, one's assistance is still quite limited.

 

But with training, over time, more and more pairs of hands will appear, as one's scope for being able to bear other's burdens and lighten their load enlarges. In time, one may then simultaneously have 20 pairs of hands (metaphorically speaking, also not metaphorically speaking, as some people can actually mobilize many pairs of extra hands when they want to, in getting a group together for a good cause, or some voluntary work for charity, for example), each one of this extra support going out to help others in different ways and in various directions.

 

This is the reason why the image of Chenrezig or Guanyin is often depicted as a form with 1000 arms (with 1000 being another metaphor for limitless) -- this symbolises the timeless and unlimited capacity of the Bodhisattva of Compassion to render solace, healing and selfless assistance in all directions, instantly, without hesitation, from the highest heavens to the lowest depths of hell, in fact, transcending all limited human understanding of space and time.

 

So for those who have the desire and affinity to enlarge one's compassionate scope, it is encouraged that one should learn to form a reverent connection with Guanyin Pusa/Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara, and grow more arms (not those bangbang ones! ).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Homage to Chenrezig:

 

"From his eyes come forth the sun and the moon; from his brow, Mahesvara, the great God who creates life with a thunderbolt from his third eye; from his shoulders, Brahma and other gods; from his heart, Narayana, the soul of the universe; from his thighs, Saraswati, wife of Brahma and Goddess of wisdom, music and science; from his mouth, the winds; from his feet, the earth; from his stomach, Varuna, an emanation from the sun initiating the cycles of nature and the embodiment of truth. He is a lamp to the blind, a parasol for those devoured by the heat of the sun, and a stream to the thirsty. He takes away all fear from those who are afraid; he is a doctor to the sick, and he is father and mother to those who are lonely and unhappy..."

 

 

 

*hope this discussion yields immense benefits for everyone. Thanks to the OP.

 

 

Nice stuff. Your analogy was a bit strange, but overall a good explanation of one way to learn to practice compassionate action. Thanks for the input and you're welcome for the thread.

 

Aaron

[zanshin]

Thanks, you were all helpful and I'm calm now. Well they've almost quit chatting and gone to bed. The dad is sort of a flaky hippie guy, who I do find mostly likable. This year he found a girlfriend, more drinking and partying and blowing off his kids. The boys are 11, been friends since kindergarten and that is when the mother passed away. I really don't think judgemental people are being very helpful right now.

 

Hope I didn't side track the thread. Interesting how in space of a few hours today, compassion seemed to go from being a simple, noble, intelligent practice to a frustrating exercise in futility and feeling taken advantage of, but now that I calmed down I'll just do what I can and that's all I can do. Hopefully, is helpful to talk about application too though. It seems natural and intuitive to try to help people out, but hard to understand what people really need and yeah leading horses to water.

[manitou]

i'm not sure practicing compassion or love is enough. I think there is a clearing-out process that we must go through, regardless of which method we use, which creates a straight shot down to the heart. totally straight. Unencumbered by jealousies, angers, selfishness, putting one's self first. We can practice compassion all we want but if we don't have the internal dynamics cleared out, the compassion will be coming from a selfish or egoistic place at some point.

 

also, it's been said that it takes an extremely wise person to really know what another person needs. It's very easy to buy into a story and feel compassion for that side of the story - but a different perspective will lie elsewhere. To really see what a another needs, one needs to see the internal dynamics of that person. That is done by developing the Eyes. If the third eye hasn't developed and you're not able to see in '3-D', then the vision will be off, although the intent may be good..

 

As to how far to go in compassion? It can be limitless. After all, that person is you. The other half of you, warts and all. When we come from a place of Oneness there is no separation or limitation. But a wise person can also see when they are being manipulated, and sometimes 'compassion' can lead to the other person trying to manipulate your compassion for their specific purpose. This is why the eyes must be developed, the clarity must be achieved straight down to the heart. If there is any attempt at manipulation at all, then your compassion is not 'truly what the other person needs'. Instead, he may need for you to get out of the way and let him bang his head against the wall repeatedly, figuratively speaking.

 

The Way, the Void, the Essence, God......however you want to say it, it is at work in everyone whether they are aware of it or not. You may think you know better how something should go. But perhaps not. Maybe their fate is the hard path, as mine and my husband's was. Ours was the ugly path of alcoholism, but nobody in the world could have 'come in and fixed either one of us' by being compassionate. It was by total humiliation that each of us respectively woke up and realized that we were pathetic specimens. My moment of life-changing awareness didn't come until I threw up all over my then-boyfriend. I heard a voice in my head that said "You're better than this." That was all it took. Actually, one would have thought I would have gotten the message after being drunkenly raped and strangled, or even arrested by my own police department that I was a member of.....for drunk driving, resisting arrest, and battery on a police officer. But somehow I just didn't hear the message until that one moment - that moment I heard the voice.....

 

The same liberating opportunities will be given to us all if needed. It's up to us whether we wish to recover from our misery, whatever it may be.

 

It's all good.

Edited March 12, 2013 by manitou

[Aaron]

Just bumping the topic. I'm going to start the second treasure tomorrow, wanted everyone to get the chance to respond to this treasure before I post that one.

 

Aaron

[Stosh]

Good subject Aaron

just reading

[manitou]

Glad you're bumpin. I was wondering where you went.

[Vmarco]

The first treasure, as most of us probably know, is compassion, sometimes referred to as mercy, other times love. I think it is the most important treasure, because without it, the other two treasures really can't be practiced in a spiritual way. In fact, for most spiritual traditions, it is believed that all spiritual practice depends on one's own understanding compassion, or to put it another way, one cannot hope to grow spiritually without understanding compassion and practicing compassion.

 

With that said, we should ask ourselves what exactly compassion is? Aaron

 

For me, an important synonym of compassion is Welcome,...as in, Love waits only on Welcome. In the 70's I heard or read,...that the dharma, or highest quality of a human is to welcome.

 

For about 39 years,...I've felt that the goal of life is to bring more love and light into this reality,...not that love and light are lacking in any way,...but merely obscured by the focus on sensory limited human life.

 

Both the prajnaparamita interpretation of Buddhism, and Daoism, suggest to me, that compassion is unavailable without welcoming things as they are. This part is rather tricky for most,...because, according to prajnaparamita and Daoism,...the 6 senses, not only cannot observe things as they are, but cannot welcome things as they are.

 

Buddhism is quite explicit about the nature of compassion,..."The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

 

The 6 senses can NEVER recognize Presence,...they only observe the past,...and such is the nature of the 6 senses or consciousness'. Both prajnaparamita and Daoism point to higher consciousness'...that which is aware beyond the 6 senses.

 

Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: said, "...everbody thinks that compassion is important, and everyone has compassion. True enough, but the Buddha gave uncommon quintessential instructions when he taught the methods for cultivating compassion, and the differences are extraordinarily important."

 

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman commentary on the Dalai Lama's The Four Noble Truth's.

 

Considering various Buddhist and Daoist viewpoints,...one may ponder if Western ideas about compassion are even relevant.

 

What is compassion? My favorite definition of compassion:

 

Chögyam Trungpa said, "Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces."

[Vmarco]

i'm not sure practicing compassion or love is enough. I think there is a clearing-out process that we must go through, regardless of which method we use, which creates a straight shot down to the heart. totally straight. Unencumbered by jealousies, angers, selfishness, putting one's self first. We can practice compassion all we want but if we don't have the internal dynamics cleared out, the compassion will be coming from a selfish or egoistic place at some point.

 

IMO,..real compassion, that is, the compassion of bodhisattvas,...are only accessed through a clearing-out process,...not only jealousy, but faith-based goodwill,...not only fear, but hope,...not only pride, but humility. Both Buddhism and Daoism point to a non-dual reality.

 

Heart Mind or consciousness,...what has been described as our 7th consciousness,...is unaccessable by sentient or the 6 sensory consciousness'.

 

Sakyamuni Buddha’s greatest teaching, according to Sakyamuni, is that only through the perfect wisdom of the Heart sutra comes the perfect compassion of a bodhisattva. If compassion arises from form alone (the skandhas), it is false compassion, no matter how well intended.

 

The term "perfect wisdom" above, is about prajna,...not the accumulation of knowledge as defined by Westerners.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Vmarco

[Aaron]

For me, an important synonym of compassion is Welcome,...as in, Love waits only on Welcome. In the 70's I heard or read,...that the dharma, or highest quality of a human is to welcome.

 

For about 39 years,...I've felt that the goal of life is to bring more love and light into this reality,...not that love and light are lacking in any way,...but merely obscured by the focus on sensory limited human life.

 

Both the prajnaparamita interpretation of Buddhism, and Daoism, suggest to me, that compassion is unavailable without welcoming things as they are. This part is rather tricky for most,...because, according to prajnaparamita and Daoism,...the 6 senses, not only cannot observe things as they are, but cannot welcome things as they are.

 

Buddhism is quite explicit about the nature of compassion,..."The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

 

The 6 senses can NEVER recognize Presence,...they only observe the past,...and such is the nature of the 6 senses or consciousness'. Both prajnaparamita and Daoism point to higher consciousness'...that which is aware beyond the 6 senses.

 

Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: said, "...everbody thinks that compassion is important, and everyone has compassion. True enough, but the Buddha gave uncommon quintessential instructions when he taught the methods for cultivating compassion, and the differences are extraordinarily important."

 

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman commentary on the Dalai Lama's The Four Noble Truth's.

 

Considering various Buddhist and Daoist viewpoints,...one may ponder if Western ideas about compassion are even relevant.

 

What is compassion? My favorite definition of compassion:

 

Chögyam Trungpa said, "Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces."

 

 

Hello VMarco,

 

I disagree with much of what you said, not only from a Buddhist viewpoint, but also a Taoist viewpoint. First. I get a distinct impression that people who say that compassion cannot be realized without first realizing x,y, or z, are doing so because it's a cop-out for them and their followers. It's alright that you're not behaving in a compassionate way, because until you realize x, y, or z, you'll never really understand compassion.

 

I do think a full realization of compassion only comes when one understands the nature of reality, but this isn't only achieved through one path, but various paths, in fact it's the large print that changes, not the small print. As I've said many times before, when you search for enlightenment through a tradition, then when you receive enlightenment, you will use that traditions stance to explain it, but overall enlightenment is the same experience, whether you're christian, buddhist, taoist, or muslim.

 

Enlightenment does not preclude that one will act in a compassionate way either, we can examine the actions of many "enlightened" people and gather enough understanding to realize that enlightenment is simply an awareness of who and what we are in the grand scheme of things. In fact enlightened people tend to be more voracious about learning other traditions and paths than those who are not, if only because they understand on an innate level the similarities far outweigh the differences.

 

Keeping this in mind, then we can assume, that for this discussion, compassion as it's being talked about by Lao Tzu is not necessarily dualistic, or non-dualistic, but the act of compassion, not only feeling empathy for others, but acting on that empathy. The erroneous belief that one must become like a Vulcan when they've achieved enlightenment is quite funny to me, because I've met enlightened monks before and they never seemed pretentious or lacking in empathy, one was even fond of making jokes, horribly awkward and silly jokes. In fact they tend to connect with people quite quickly and quite powerfully, even to those who might not be aware of their "enlightened" status.

 

We should never preclude the necessity of compassion in our life by stating that it is worthless without understanding x, y, or z. If you need evidence, go to any soup kitchen or shelter in any winter state and you'll see why. The notion that compassion should stem or be the product of much higher realization is suddenly shot down and shown to be the complete fabrication of the religious elite, an attempt to lay claim to an act in order to reduce the value placed on that act by the followers. The followers will no longer hold James, who selflessly searches for donations and feeds the hungry in esteem, but rather the man sitting in the upper room who is warm and cozy drinking a cup of tea preaching about how futile John's act really is.

 

So I do agree to an extent, the welcoming bit is a very astute explanation, for it is only by welcoming the chance to be compassionate, by receiving it, not as a chore, but an opportunity to do something beneficial that we begin to understand the highest virtue that exists in compassion, but to discount the lower virtuous act, the compassionate act done out religious obligation, is pointless and a bit dogmatic, especially to the man who is hungry waiting for food.

 

In the end we should strive to be compassionate because our heart compels us to do so, but until that time there is nothing wrong with practicing compassion as a purely obligatory act to ward off bad karma or achieve salvation. That's my two-cents anyways.

 

Aaron

Edited March 16, 2013 by Aaron

[Vmarco]

 

 

Hello VMarco,

 

I disagree with much of what you said, not only from a Buddhist viewpoint, but also a Taoist viewpoint. First. I get a distinct impression that people who say that compassion cannot be realized without first realizing x,y, or z, are doing so because it's a cop-out for them and their followers. It's alright that you're not behaving in a compassionate way, because until you realize x, y, or z, you'll never really understand compassion.

 

Aaron

Yes,...I suppose Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Shantideva, HH Dalai Lama. etc., could all be cop-outs,...for describing x,y and z, to realize compassion,...however, I much perfer their x,y,and z in contract to your a, b,and c based of cerebral centric sentient ideas of compassion,...that compassion cannot be realized until it fulfills Aaron's mundane view of compassion, which is held by the groupthink of our sick society.

 

"it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" J Krishnamurti

 

I disagree, that one is not considered compassionate until they pass Aaron's a, b, and c criteria for compassion. According to that a, b, and c criteria,...the most historically known enlightened persons must not ever been enlightened,...which is no big deal,....however, it is a big deal when one rejects entities like Sakyamuni, Avalokitesvara (known as the most compassionate being that ever existed), etc,...simply because what they said upsets one's own logic.

 

IMO,...would it not be better to prove Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Shantideva, HH Dalai Lama, Avalokitesvara, etc., all wrong,...instead of arguing what you are arguing? In other words,...if the Dalai Lama explicity suggests that "If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara"....and the Bodhicharyvatara says that the true practice of compassion is impossible without the direct realization of emptiness,...then I'm inclined to investigated what that is about.

 

Unlike yourself,...I have no interest in being an expert in accumulated knowledge, nor be the biggest monkey mind on the block. To me, Lao Tzu implied to let this monkey mind, along with its sensory delusions, go.

 

Aaron says,..."We should never preclude the necessity of compassion in our life by stating that it is worthless without understanding x, y, or z." But is not Aaron thus implying that compassion is then a, b, and, c? Or to put it another way,...is not Aaron suggesting that compassion is other than what compassion is?

 

The root of Buddhist practice is Compassion, which according to Buddha, only arises through the realization of the emptiness of inherent existence. I've seen no indication that such a statement is contrary to Daoism,...but is actually synonymous with Daoism.

 

Your quarrel Aaron,...is with, HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara,...to name those I used in this thread who have offered a different opinion than your own.

 

As the subject of this thread is "Three Jewels"...whose insight into compassion should I consider?

[Aaron]

Yes,...I suppose Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Shantideva, HH Dalai Lama. etc., could all be cop-outs,...for describing x,y and z, to realize compassion,...however, I much perfer their x,y,and z in contract to your a, b,and c based of cerebral centric sentient ideas of compassion,...that compassion cannot be realized until it fulfills Aaron's mundane view of compassion, which is held by the groupthink of our sick society.

 

"it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" J Krishnamurti

 

I disagree, that one is not considered compassionate until they pass Aaron's a, b, and c criteria for compassion. According to that a, b, and c criteria,...the most historically known enlightened persons must not ever been enlightened,...which is no big deal,....however, it is a big deal when one rejects entities like Sakyamuni, Avalokitesvara (known as the most compassionate being that ever existed), etc,...simply because what they said upsets one's own logic.

 

IMO,...would it not be better to prove Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Shantideva, HH Dalai Lama, Avalokitesvara, etc., all wrong,...instead of arguing what you are arguing? In other words,...if the Dalai Lama explicity suggests that "If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara"....and the Bodhicharyvatara says that the true practice of compassion is impossible without the direct realization of emptiness,...then I'm inclined to investigated what that is about.

 

Unlike yourself,...I have no interest in being an expert in accumulated knowledge, nor be the biggest monkey mind on the block. To me, Lao Tzu implied to let this monkey mind, along with its sensory delusions, go.

 

Aaron says,..."We should never preclude the necessity of compassion in our life by stating that it is worthless without understanding x, y, or z." But is not Aaron thus implying that compassion is then a, b, and, c? Or to put it another way,...is not Aaron suggesting that compassion is other than what compassion is?

 

The root of Buddhist practice is Compassion, which according to Buddha, only arises through the realization of the emptiness of inherent existence. I've seen no indication that such a statement is contrary to Daoism,...but is actually synonymous with Daoism.

 

Your quarrel Aaron,...is with, HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara,...to name those I used in this thread who have offered a different opinion than your own.

 

As the subject of this thread is "Three Jewels"...whose insight into compassion should I consider?

 

 

Hello VMarco,

 

The first thing I should point out, for the sake of compassion and non-competition, is that you should probably let this argument go, because there is no way for you to win, since everything you're advocating is simply conjecture and subjective. Without a valid substantive way to prove that your views on compassion are real, there is no way to support your argument other than repeating the same thing over and over hoping people will finally get tired and quit arguing with you.

 

With that said, I will proceed by clarifying some points, first, Lao Tzu never advocated compassion in a way that is even remotely close to your description, not in the Tao Te Ching, nor the Hua Hu Ching. Compassion in Lao Tzu's eyes was very much an act perpetrated out of empathy for others, and that did not arise from "emptiness" (at least not as you apparently observe it), but rather one's understanding of their connection to each other. If you want to know where to find this, well it's every other chapter of the Tao Te Ching and Hua Hu Ching.

 

You have also misquoted me and taken what I've said out of context, for example, I have said that there is a higher virtue of compassion and a lower virtue of compassion, and that experiencing and practicing the higher virtue of compassion stems from understanding the fundamental experiential enlightenment or oneness experience. In fact the very people you post say the same thing, and all of them would agree with what I said in regard to the notion that practicing compassion without awareness of x, y, or z is pointless is incorrect and a "cop out". In fact the Eightfold Path works along the premise that one should fake it until he makes it. Of course, since I'm a nobody on a forum, I'm obviously wrong. Apparently the only way to say something correct is to have been published and accepted by the masses as a guru. I've yet to be published and I certainly never want to be a guru, so my opinion, at least by your standards, will not matter in the long run.

 

With that said, I would suggest that you stop justifying inaction by claiming ignorance, because I am going to tell you exactly what every other religious figure that has any merit or even vague sense of enlightenment has said, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If you can do this, then you can practice compassion as it arises from emptiness.

 

Aaron

Edited March 17, 2013 by Aaron

[Vmarco]

 

 

Hello VMarco,

 

The first thing I should point out, for the sake of compassion and non-competition, is that you should probably let this argument go, because there is no way for you to win, since everything you're advocating is simply conjecture and subjective. Without a valid substantive way to prove that your views on compassion are real, there is no way to support your argument other than repeating the same thing over and over hoping people will finally get tired and quit arguing with you.

 

Aaron

Aaron,...if you are not a politician by trade, I would serious wonder why not.

 

It is you who are advocating subjective, groupthink notions on your a, b, and c's of what compassion is,....I'm merely arguing that the most well known persons, past and present on the subject, are pointing to something else.

 

Of course you hope that people will get tired of me,...as Johann Goethe exclaimed, “Truth lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it.”

 

I fully understand that you want to present your monkey-mind interpretation of the jewel of compassion,...ego's a, b, and c definition,...based on sentient consciousness. What I'm saying is,...what if Quan Yin, the Bodhisattva of Compassion,...who implies in the Heart Sutra that real compassion is impossible without understanding Dependent Origination,...is correct?

 

Ok,...it is obvious you do not want to have a meaningful conversation on the subject,...on the quotes mentioned,...on why those who authored those quotes did so. It may have been better for you to have title this thread "An Examination of the Three Jewels Part One- Compassion, from a Monkey mind perspective."

 

"the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu

[Aaron]

Aaron,...if you are not a politician by trade, I would serious wonder why not.

 

It is you who are advocating subjective, groupthink notions on your a, b, and c's of what compassion is,....I'm merely arguing that the most well known persons, past and present on the subject, are pointing to something else.

 

Of course you hope that people will get tired of me,...as Johann Goethe exclaimed, “Truth lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it.”

 

I fully understand that you want to present your monkey-mind interpretation of the jewel of compassion,...ego's a, b, and c definition,...based on sentient consciousness. What I'm saying is,...what if Quan Yin, the Bodhisattva of Compassion,...who implies in the Heart Sutra that real compassion is impossible without understanding Dependent Origination,...is correct?

 

Ok,...it is obvious you do not want to have a meaningful conversation on the subject,...on the quotes mentioned,...on why those who authored those quotes did so. It may have been better for you to have title this thread "An Examination of the Three Jewels Part One- Compassion, from a Monkey mind perspective."

 

"the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu

 

 

Hello VMarco,

 

I think you're missing some valuable points, or ignoring them. Semantics seem to be involved in this swashbuckling of wits, in this case you're stating that there is only one definition or form of compassion, the one that arises from an understanding of dependent origination, I am stating that there is a form of compassion that arises from dependent origination, emptiness, oneness experience, or whatever you want to call enlightenment these days, but also a form that arises from the senses, and that practicing either is virtuous, hence the first is a high virtue (arises as te) the second a low virtue (arises from humanity, ideology, and justice). In the long run it is much better to abandon the latter and find sustenance in the former. However, the eightfold path (something you chose not to address) is a clear indication that there is a necessity for "faking it until you make it".

 

However my point still stands, I claim that there is a higher virtue of compassion, but I cannot prove its existence, for it is nothing that the senses can see, smell, hear, taste, or touch, but when it arises we know it is there, even without knowing what it is, for it moves the deepest emotions within us.

 

Aaron

Edited March 17, 2013 by Aaron

[Spotless]

The subtlety of compassion might be seen in the word or vibration of "neutrality".

 

Most "compassion" appears as identification - it is not much different that "hate" or jealousy. We can see a poor person and our reaction tends to be just as habituated as our reaction might be to say "a person driving around in a Hummer".

 

Which is more sad - a spotless being with a truly phenomenal physical body cut off from "being" by total identification with power? or - a spotless being with a truly phenomenal physical body cut off from the "being" by total identification as a victim?

 

Both have the possibility to awaken from their sleep - be jarred from their identification. One may have developed a vibration that attracts things and he sees the world as his oyster, what he will endure to awaken him my be the loss of a child. The other may be on a path of awakening, and he is being beaten down every time he gets up - because that is the way he hopes to finally wake up.

 

If you travel you can see that in some areas the earth energy field is extremely vibrant and in others its like walking in stone.

The peoples energy is just as different - in some areas the chakras are alive and vibrant in many of the people. In other areas most of the people only function in the lower 3 chakras.

 

Any given person offers every reason to feel compassion for - whatever their identification is - how much of their story they believe in - are invested in - the robotics run the full gambit from deep superstition and distrust to

blatant in your face "my way or the highway".

 

If you are able to see the person behind the eyes and say hello to them - their is no difference between those considered successful and those with bare feet. Both will be equally surprised that you are saying hello to them.

 

If you try to give to one who has quite a bit of "success" you may well get a "whack" of energy thrown at you, and equally if you try to give to one who has had "little success" you may have to pull them off of you.

 

Try looking at the "fat" person without any judgement or a maimed person without any judgement, or an "Ugly"person without any judgement. or a disheveled person without any judgement. Most compassion is a judgement. Sometimes action on that judgement - typically thought-forms emanating from you to them - good - bad - full of advice - a complete tirade - soft - harsh.

 

I don't think real compassion is possible if you have inertia in your seeing. The less you have of inertia the more near to compassion you can be.

 

In most cases if you have compassion it is part of a goal otherwise it is pity - and neither is less mechanical.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Spotless

[thelerner]

I leave such theories to the theoreticians arguing about absolutes this'es and perfect that'is. If someone needs help and you're in position to do it, then just do it. There's hunger in the world. Its in our power to volunteer at food pantries, give to an organization like Heifer, so do it. Find a cause, roll up your sleeves and work at it. Get out of your head, forget your philosophy books, deep contemplations and do some work to make the world a better place.

 

Keep it simple, help other human beings when you can. Even if its mechanical, begrudging and totally imperfect; help other people. Should we wait til we're perfect Buddhas? I say no.

Edited March 17, 2013 by thelerner

[Jetsun]

I leave such theories to the theoreticians arguing about absolutes this'es and perfect that'is. If someone needs help and you're in position to do it, then just do it. There's hunger in the world. Its in our power to volunteer at food pantries, give to an organization like Heifer, so do it. Find a cause, roll up your sleeves and work at it. Get out of your head, forget your philosophy books, deep contemplations and do some work to make the world a better place. Keep it simple, help other human beings when you can. Even if its mechanical, begrudging and totally imperfect; help other people. Should we wait til we're perfect Buddhas? I say no.

You are probably more Christian than Buddhist then. I think neuroscience backs up this stance as they have shown that the areas of the brain which are associated with compassion also light up the areas associated with action when stimulated.

[Vmarco]

 

 

Hello VMarco,

 

I think you're missing some valuable points, or ignoring them. Semantics seem to be involved in this swashbuckling of wits, in this case you're stating that there is only one definition or form of compassion, the one that arises from an understanding of dependent originationAaron

Seems a bit more than simply semantics. Your first, and continuing response to me appears to be that there is one, and only definition of compassion, and that is Aaron's a,b, and c approach,...while the x, y, and z approach held by the greatest non-Judeao/Christian/Muslem figures (HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara, Quan Yin) is total nonsense.

 

"Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces." Chögyam Trungpa