An Examination of the Three Jewels Part One- Compassion

[Vmarco]

The subtlety of compassion might be seen in the word or vibration of "neutrality".

 

IMO, Sharon Salzberg got it correct, from a Budhhist/Daoist point of view: "Sometimes we think that to develop an open heart, to be truly loving and compassionate, means that we need to be passive, to allow others to abuse us, to smile and let anyone do what they want with us. Yet this is not what is meant by compassion. Quite the contrary. Compassion is not at all weak. It is the strength that arises out of seeing the true nature of suffering in the world. Compassion allows us to bear witness to that suffering, whether it is in ourselves or others, without fear; it allows us to name injustice without hesitation, and to act strongly, with all the skill at our disposal."

 

from Sharon Salzberg 'Compassion, the Supreme Emotion'

[Vmarco]

I leave such theories to the theoreticians arguing about absolutes this'es and perfect that'is. If someone needs help and you're in position to do it, then just do it. There's hunger in the world. Its in our power to volunteer at food pantries, give to an organization like Heifer, so do it. Find a cause, roll up your sleeves and work at it. Get out of your head, forget your philosophy books, deep contemplations and do some work to make the world a better place.

 

Although the "meek" love jargon like that, it not only does nothing to elevate human beingness, but is a recipe to keep people asleep. Reminds me of The "lying, thieving Albanian dwarf” described by Christopher Hitchens,...referring to Mother Teresa, the "friend of poverty" and advocate of rice-driven Christian indoctrination who wasn't even relatively compassionate, as the book Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice explains.

 

The only way to honestly make the world a better place is, as mentioned in post #25, by having no hesitation, no inhibition about calling a pile of shit, a pile of shit.

 

However, to get to that level of compassion, one must first uncover within themselves, honesty.

 

"As long as your shallow worldly ambitions exist (ie, hopes, beliefs, attachments to faith-based traditions) the door will not open." Lao Tzu

[Vmarco]

You are probably more Christian than Buddhist then. I think neuroscience backs up this stance as they have shown that the areas of the brain which are associated with compassion also light up the areas associated with action when stimulated.

Very interesting idea,...can compassion be somehow quantified through brain scans? Showing once and for all that faith-based advocacy is not compassion,...but a detriment to humanity,...the most cruel thing one person can do to another,...that is, to advocate beliefs that step between others and their direct experience.

[Aaron]

Seems a bit more than simply semantics. Your first, and continuing response to me appears to be that there is one, and only definition of compassion, and that is Aaron's a,b, and c approach,...while the x, y, and z approach held by the greatest non-Judeao/Christian/Muslem figures (HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara, Quan Yin) is total nonsense.

 

"Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces." Chögyam Trungpa

 

VMarco,

 

Are you reading what I post? I said that there are numerous definitions of compassion and that the problem seemed to be that you felt there was only one definition. If you're not going to even pay attention to what I'm actually saying, then there is no reason to continue to have this conversation. I might as well be talking to door.

 

Also do you know I've seen you post that Chogyam Trungpa quote at least five times, and I still don't believe you understand what he's saying. If I may, I'd like to offer you my own opinion regarding that quote, perhaps you'll agree, perhaps not. What (I believe) Chogyam Trungpa is saying in this quote is that compassion, true compassion, is immediate, a response not born out of value judgments or morality, but rather you behave compassionately to everyone regardless. Also it's important not to add a metaphoric quality to "light" that isn't intended. Light in this instance is a metaphor for the intention derived from an understanding of dependent origination.

 

To put this in a Taoist context, Lao Tzu says essentially the same thing when he says (to paraphrase), a sage treats all things like straw dogs and that the sage shows mercy to those that deserve it and to those that don't.

 

As I said earlier, and you seem to choose to ignore, the ideas you are mentioning are neither new or revolutionary, rather they are the tried and true statements that have been encouraged by nearly every religious figure with even the slightest merit. You're changing the vocabulary, but not the idea.

 

I would request that you take the time to read what I say and respond to my actual comments, rather than create a fictitious conversation that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

 

Aaron

 

P.S. You may believe that I missed the games you're playing, but I'm very aware of your intent. I would suggest that trying to push people's buttons isn't necessarily compassionate,

Edited March 17, 2013 by Aaron

[manitou]

For me, an important synonym of compassion is Welcome,...as in, Love waits only on Welcome. In the 70's I heard or read,...that the dharma, or highest quality of a human is to welcome.

 

 

 

I was just rereading this thread and happened on this.

 

Welcome.

 

That word alone connotates an open heart. I wonder if that is what the iconic art of Jesus means when it shows a hole in his chest to show his heart. I've also seen this in Chinese restaurants? Lao Tzu?

 

Also, VMarco, when you say later that faith-based advocacy is not compassion I couldn't agree with you more. I've seen the Christian ladies around here in the bible-belt hold open food pantries for the people in the streets - and then giggle and spray air deodorizer around the room after a ripe one walks out - giggling as they do it, within the view of other homeless people.

 

They're in it to make themselves feel holier-than-thou. with this group at least, they are clueless.

Edited March 17, 2013 by manitou

[Vmarco]

 

VMarco,

 

Are you reading what I post? I said that there are numerous definitions of compassion and that the problem seemed to be that you felt there was only one definition. If you're not going to even pay attention to what I'm actually saying, then there is no reason to continue to have this conversation.

 

So,...I went back to re-read that post,...and what I read is that you fully reject the x, y. and z definitions of compassion presented by HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara, Quan Yin etc. Are you now not saying this? Are you now suggesting that perhaps their x, y. and z compassion may have some validity,...and your monkey mind acquired a, b. and c definition may not be the only definition of compassion?

[Vmarco]

 

I was just rereading this thread and happened on this.

 

Welcome.

 

That word alone connotates an open heart. I wonder if that is what the iconic art of Jesus means when it shows a hole in his chest to show his heart. I've also seen this in Chinese restaurants? Lao Tzu?

 

Keep in mind, that the prototype for Jesus, partially arose from Sarapis,..the thymos or heart centered religion of gnosis.

 

When the Greeks spoke of the Higher Mind, they pointed to the chest and said thymos,...the thymos is the seat of gnowledge. Gnowledge (Heart Mind) is a direct threat to the faith-based "book religions." Over the portico of theTemple of Delphi it is written "Gnothi Seauton"....Gnow Thyself. But religion has altered this to say Know Thyself,...which is not the same. Knowledge comes from psyche, the Head Mind.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere:

 

The story of present-day Christianity is part of a larger mythology. The evidence suggests that the actual principle of Christ grew out of Memphite philosophy—literally, the Krst, the anointed ones, like the Risen Horus/Apis. Then in the fifth century BCE, the word Christos, referring to an “awakened one,” crept into Greek subculture, and this word can be found in the works of classical writers, such as Aeschylus and Herodotus, the father of history.

 

Let me repeat,...the word Christ is recorded in 5th century BCE literature.

 

Hundreds of years later, in his letter to the Consul Servianus, Hadrian (71–138 CE), who was the governor of Syria under Trajan, called the Sarapian leaders “bishops of Christ.” Up until the beginning of the Second Century, the Egypto-Greek Sarapians, including those in Syria, called themselves Christians and bishops of Christ.

[skydog]

Sometimes when my heart is really blocked after having an argument due to in my opinion being treated wrongly I just think it should be mandatory that other people meditate/are aware of just how destructive their behaviour is.

 

Of course in a good mood I say oh forget that, I should just be nice to everyone all the time, cant rock the boat.

 

Which one is truly true though.

[thelerner]

Although the "meek" love jargon like that, it not only does nothing to elevate human beingness, but is a recipe to keep people asleep. Reminds me of The "lying, thieving Albanian dwarf” described by Christopher Hitchens,...referring to Mother Teresa, the "friend of poverty" and advocate of rice-driven ..

The only way to honestly make the world a better place is, as mentioned in post #25, by having no hesitation, no inhibition about calling a pile of shit, a pile of shit.

 

However, to get to that level of compassion, one must first uncover within themselves, honesty.

 

"As long as your shallow worldly ambitions exist (ie, hopes, beliefs, attachments to faith-based traditions) the door will not open." Lao Tzu

So ooo helping others is a form of meekness and unawakenedness? Hmnn, do we ever help others or do we wait until reaching a high enough level of enlightenment before daring such a complex act? Are we so concerned with 'elevating mankind' that we can't stop to help an individual?

 

Seems overly judgmental and very head heavy. Taking a simple act and creating long doctrinal beliefs about it. Keep it simple, you see someone who needs help; don't go through 2,000 years of history and analysis, just help, lend a hand. Don't worry about motives, rewards, history or theology, just help. Because its not about you <your motives and karma> its about a person in need; just help them.

 

We don't have to be Mother Teresa, saints or enlightened. We don't have to make our whole lives revolve around charity, but we <imo as part of human society> have to do something. Little things can mean a lot in this world, a smile, a few dollars, a few focused minutes. Throughout the day see where you can help your family, your neighbors, your world. Such acts are not a Christian thing, its a human thing.

 

<Using a Lao Tzu quote thats not from the TTC, but different era with different voice and philosophy doesn't make your example any stronger>

Edited March 17, 2013 by thelerner

[Aaron]

So,...I went back to re-read that post,...and what I read is that you fully reject the x, y. and z definitions of compassion presented by HH Dalai Lama, Shantideva, Robert Thurman, Chögyam Trungpa, Sakyamuni, Sogyal Rinpoche, Sharon Salzberg, Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Avalokitesvara, Quan Yin etc. Are you now not saying this? Are you now suggesting that perhaps their x, y. and z compassion may have some validity,...and your monkey mind acquired a, b. and c definition may not be the only definition of compassion?

 

Actually no... I went to great lengths to differentiate between the two types of compassion that were being discussed, the low virtue of compassion, derived from morality and cultural norms, and the high virtue of compassion derived from Te. No use going on, since you've moved on to how Christianity is a hoax that keeps people from understanding Buddhism and compassionate people are meek and unawakened (I guess anyone who gives someone else help is apparently unawakened, since if you're awakened you're obviously beyond the all that),

 

I like Lerner's response. He hit it on the nail and said pretty much what Lao Tzu said. Help those in need. The more you help others, the more you help yourself. I have a hard time understanding how you can't see the merit in this. I'm wondering what you've taught your children regarding compassion? If their friend falls down and breaks his ankle, do they run and get help for them or wait for enlightenment to come so they can really help their friend?

 

Aaron

Edited March 18, 2013 by Aaron

[Vmarco]

So ooo helping others is a form of meekness and unawakenedness? Hmnn, do we ever help others or do we wait until reaching a high enough level of enlightenment before daring such a complex act? Are we so concerned with 'elevating mankind' that we can't stop to help an individual?

 

Seems overly judgmental and very head heavy. Taking a simple act and creating long doctrinal beliefs about it. Keep it simple, you see someone who needs help; don't go through 2,000 years of history and analysis, just help, lend a hand. Don't worry about motives, rewards, history or theology, just help. Because its not about you <your motives and karma> its about a person in need; just help them.

 

We don't have to be Mother Teresa, saints or enlightened. We don't have to make our whole lives revolve around charity, but we <imo as part of human society> have to do something. Little things can mean a lot in this world, a smile, a few dollars, a few focused minutes. Throughout the day see where you can help your family, your neighbors, your world. Such acts are not a Christian thing, its a human thing.

 

Doing little things is great,...and although you obviously reject outright what I'm saying, I'll say it again,...doing little things to help is often not the right thing, especially from a faith-based agenda.

 

Yes,...certainly,...uncovering more compassion is sorely needed today. Someone once said, the pain that you carry is the love that you withhold. And how so very few realize that the faith-based are the most obscured from love segment of society.

 

Love, in my view, is very much associated with the compassion of a bodhisattva,...that is to say,...displays of faith-based caring, is not the love I speak of.

 

Most Christians and Christian hybrids believe the God they invoke while spreading their faith, is love. However, in the whole of their Holy Book, the Bible, it only suggests the idea that their God is love at the very end, in the late 2nd Century apology 1John. In fact, when viewing the full length and breadth of the Bible, their Patriarch is clearly a murderous, pro-slavery, vacillant, petty, racist, conditional God. And amazingly, a God who is so insecure, that it demands to be worshiped, obeyed and prayed to.

 

Christians say, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7. Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is idealized by Christians, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs

 

Buddhism is fully contrary to bearing, believing, hoping, and enduring. Tilopa said, that to transcend the mind's dualities all hope must die. "the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear." Christianity advocates hope and fear.

 

Compassion or love can never uncovered through hope and fear.

 

Real love does not avoid,...perfect love is not coddling,...authentic love shines it light on all the barriers (beliefs) that people have built againt it. True love is honest,...honesty does not tolerate dishonesty. All beliefs are dishonest. All beliefs are barriers to love.

 

To have an authentic discussion of compassion, it is necessary to put hope and fear on the table,...for if one is connected to hope and fear, their faith-based caring actions are no more than a display of psuedo-compassion, which is worse than no caring at all,...because psuedo-compassion promotes ans sustains hope, fear, and faith-based insanity.

 

The compassion of a Bodhisattva is not synonymous with hope or desire. Hope and desire belong to an anticipation and expectation of the future. Hope and desire ensues from the thought of lack; that things should be other than they are. The compassion of a Bodhisattva is an intention, unencumbered by predisposition, to allow Love to flow, and arrive at its own harmonium.

 

The faith-based are cerebral-centric puppets,...fully obscured from Heart-Mind,...for it is impossible to access "heart" through faith. Faith is a condition that establishes and maintains a barrier a person and their direct experience.

 

Whereas you want to "start little"...pretending to display loving kindness in society,...I ask, why not "start real"...and reflect the compassion of a bodhisattva.

 

Whereas Aaron wants to promote his a,b.and c or man-invented compassion,...I ask, why not promote the guidance to access what Aaron calls x,y,and z compassion,...the compassion that is expressed through honesty.

 

Instead of psuedo acts of kindness that promote faith-based delusions,...why not teach people how to fish so to say,...so the planet can enter an era of authentic loving kindness.

[Vmarco]

 

 

So ooo helping others is a form of meekness and unawakenedness?

What has kept Christians ignorant of their complicity during two millennia of treachery and crimes against humanity and nature? What is the expected value that they hope to realize by the acceptance of this unquestioning belief through faith in their scripture? Is it because of their fear of death? Is it because of hope and the anticipation of heaven? Perhaps their fear and insecurity is perceived to be reduced through the hope that the meek will inherit the earth. Maybe their fear of not being good enough is tranquilized by the hope of salvation. The truth is that today’s Christianity offers no wisdom about reality or how to trigger direct, authentic experiences with the source of who we are. Christianity only desires to feed and sustain faith in its beliefs, a faith that steps between both individual and collective, and their direct experience, so that what is false continues to perpetuate itself.

[thelerner]

Whoa, its not about Christianity<really, really>, theology, salvation or saving the world; toss all those beliefs out; its about simplicity. Don't let your mind run on. Keep it simple, you see someone who needs help, its in your power to help them, ease there burden a bit, then do so. That's all.

 

Don't worry about what others may think, your future, karmic implications, teaching lessons, or long winded speeches. Be compassionate or find another word if 'compassion' sets off a complex string of unpleasant mental noise. Just help others when you can.

Edited March 18, 2013 by thelerner

[Vmarco]

Whoa, its not about Christianity<really, really>, theology, salvation or saving the world; toss all those beliefs out; its about simplicity. Don't let your mind run on. Keep it simple, you see someone who needs help, its in your power to help them, ease there burden a bit, then do so. That's all.

 

Don't worry about what others may think, your future, karmic implications, teaching lessons, or long winded speeches. Be compassionate or find another word if 'compassion' sets off a complex string of unpleasant mental noise. Just help others when you can.

That's all I've been suggesting,...toss all the beliefs out.

 

"All the joy the world contains

Has come through wishing happiness for others.

All the misery the world contains

Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself."

Shantideva

 

Faith, belief, theology, salvation, inter-faith advocacy, is all about the perceived self.

 

Would Mother Theresa have helped anyone if not filtered through her faith? Thus, of what value is the help she allegedly performed? In reality, in the long term, she only brought more misery upon others, by giving a little rice, with faith-based conditions attached to.

[thelerner]

 

Faith, belief, theology, salvation, inter-faith advocacy, is all about the perceived self.

 

Would Mother Theresa have helped anyone if not filtered through her faith?.. In reality, in the long term, she only brought more misery upon others, by giving a little rice, with faith-based conditions attached to.

Would Mother Theresa helped anyone if not filtered through her faith? I don't know, I'd guess yes, some people are natural 'Mothers', its not a faith thing, its a human one, no theology needed.

 

What is the value of her help? Again, I don't know, but I do know its life saving to be fed when you're hungry, its soul reviving <no theology here> to have a person look at you and converse like you matter. You can be inspired by her actions or not. What matters is personal action. What a person does, if they take the time to help or not.

 

I think a person can feel they're free of beliefs when in truth they're filled with negative ones, and thats just as bad. Positive or negative, a strong belief is followed strings of often biases intellectual reasoning. Worse they're the stuff of mind noise and chatter.

Edited March 19, 2013 by thelerner

[manitou]

What has kept Christians ignorant of their complicity during two millennia of treachery and crimes against humanity and nature? What is the expected value that they hope to realize by the acceptance of this unquestioning belief through faith in their scripture? Is it because of their fear of death? Is it because of hope and the anticipation of heaven? Perhaps their fear and insecurity is perceived to be reduced through the hope that the meek will inherit the earth. Maybe their fear of not being good enough is tranquilized by the hope of salvation. The truth is that today’s Christianity offers no wisdom about reality or how to trigger direct, authentic experiences with the source of who we are. Christianity only desires to feed and sustain faith in its beliefs, a faith that steps between both individual and collective, and their direct experience, so that what is false continues to perpetuate itself.

 

I think you've put your finger on it here.

 

I do think the current mindset of the bible-belt christians (at least the ones around here) is fear of death. More specifically, I think it's fear of fire, if you really break it down. Their fear is burning. In hell. Forever. Ouch.

Edited March 19, 2013 by manitou

[thelerner]

What has kept Christians ignorant of their complicity during two millennia of treachery and crimes against humanity and nature? What is the expected value that they hope to realize by the acceptance of this unquestioning belief through faith in their scripture? Is it because of their fear of death? Is it because of hope and the anticipation of heaven? Perhaps their fear and insecurity is perceived to be reduced through the hope that the meek will inherit the earth. Maybe their fear of not being good enough is tranquilized by the hope of salvation. The truth is that today’s Christianity offers no wisdom about reality or how to trigger direct, authentic experiences with the source of who we are. Christianity only desires to feed and sustain faith in its beliefs, a faith that steps between both individual and collective, and their direct experience, so that what is false continues to perpetuate itself.

You seem a little obsessed with Christianity. On this site we've pretty gotten rid of bible thumpers who blame everything on 'the devil', at times your frequent coming to Christianity in almost every subject is very similar.

 

Doing little things is great,...and although you obviously reject outright what I'm saying, I'll say it again,...doing little things to help is often not the right thing, especially from a faith-based agenda.

 

Yes,...certainly,...uncovering more compassion is sorely needed today. Someone once said, the pain that you carry is the love that you withhold. And how so very few realize that the faith-based are the most obscured from love segment of society.

 

Love, in my view, is very much associated with the compassion of a bodhisattva,...that is to say,...displays of faith-based caring, is not the love I speak of.

 

Most Christians and Christian hybrids believe the God they invoke while spreading their faith, is love. However, in the whole of their Holy Book, the Bible, it only suggests the idea that their God is love at the very end, in the late 2nd Century apology 1John. In fact, when viewing the full length and breadth of the Bible, their Patriarch is clearly a murderous, pro-slavery, vacillant, petty, racist, conditional God. And amazingly, a God who is so insecure, that it demands to be worshiped, obeyed and prayed to.

 

Christians say, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7. Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is idealized by Christians, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs

 

Buddhism is fully contrary to bearing, believing, hoping, and enduring. Tilopa said, that to transcend the mind's dualities all hope must die. "the highest goal is being devoid of hope and fear." Christianity advocates hope and fear.

 

Compassion or love can never uncovered through hope and fear.

 

Real love does not avoid,...perfect love is not coddling,...authentic love shines it light on all the barriers (beliefs) that people have built againt it. True love is honest,...honesty does not tolerate dishonesty. All beliefs are dishonest. All beliefs are barriers to love.

 

To have an authentic discussion of compassion, it is necessary to put hope and fear on the table,...for if one is connected to hope and fear, their faith-based caring actions are no more than a display of psuedo-compassion, which is worse than no caring at all,...because psuedo-compassion promotes ans sustains hope, fear, and faith-based insanity.

 

The compassion of a Bodhisattva is not synonymous with hope or desire. Hope and desire belong to an anticipation and expectation of the future. Hope and desire ensues from the thought of lack; that things should be other than they are. The compassion of a Bodhisattva is an intention, unencumbered by predisposition, to allow Love to flow, and arrive at its own harmonium.

 

The faith-based are cerebral-centric puppets,...fully obscured from Heart-Mind,...for it is impossible to access "heart" through faith. Faith is a condition that establishes and maintains a barrier a person and their direct experience.

 

Whereas you want to "start little"...pretending to display loving kindness in society,...I ask, why not "start real"...and reflect the compassion of a bodhisattva.

 

Whereas Aaron wants to promote his a,b.and c or man-invented compassion,...I ask, why not promote the guidance to access what Aaron calls x,y,and z compassion,...the compassion that is expressed through honesty.

 

Instead of psuedo acts of kindness that promote faith-based delusions,...why not teach people how to fish so to say,...so the planet can enter an era of authentic loving kindness.

A bit long winded and redundant. Course so have my answers been, though I've kept them shorter.

 

I'm fine starting little because I'm not a Bodhisattva. I don't think you are either. I wonder if your idea of teaching a person to fish is to show a hungry child a free 30 minute youtube of Mckenna. Ah, good deed is done, no need for pseudo acts of kindness like feeding the child. Once you explain yourno belief system, substantiation of light and why all religions are bad, you've done your work, problem solved. Except its not, cause right or wrong<certainly I think its wrong 12 ways> its not that easy to found your own religion or change minds.

 

And like so many fundamentalists your 'Answer' is always the same. 'Once everyone believes exactly what I do, the world will enter an era of authentic kindness', the creed of all fundamentalist groups, be they Christian, Moslem, Hindu or whatever, it is the foundation of their belief system. Another is intolerance, no matter what the conversation They'll turn it to who they're against. They generalize, marginalize and insult. Bad habit of all fundamentalists. The idea of live and let live is..not allowed because- this groups an idiot, that group is foolish, the one is murderous.

 

It can feed a monstrous ego, an elephantine one they can't see because it can't possibly exist. I think there are lessons and wisdom in most religious traditions. Not everything, but all have had wise enlightened teachers, but too many go out of your way to- Generalize, marginalize, insult all groups that aren't their 'Us'.

Edited March 19, 2013 by thelerner

[C T]

Black Bear came to a meeting late and said, "I'm feeling frazzled after dealing with my cubs. What if I dont feel compassionate?"

 

Raven said, "Fake it."

 

"That doesn't seem honest", said Black Bear.

 

"It doesn't begin with honesty", said Raven.

 

From Zen Master Raven: Sayings and Doings of a Wise Bird (Robert Aitken)

 

 

[Aaron]

Black Bear came to a meeting late and said, "I'm feeling frazzled after dealing with my cubs. What if I dont feel compassionate?"

 

Raven said, "Fake it."

 

"That doesn't seem honest", said Black Bear.

 

"It doesn't begin with honesty", said Raven.

 

From Zen Master Raven: Sayings and Doings of a Wise Bird (Robert Aitken)

 

 

 

I really liked this... Maybe you want to take a crack at starting the second treasure, frugality? Or if someone else is up for it, they could. If no one starts one by tomorrow evening, I'll post the second treasure, but I'd really like to hear another person's take on it and go from there.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

Black Bear came to a meeting late and said, "I'm feeling frazzled after dealing with my cubs. What if I dont feel compassionate?"

 

Raven said, "Fake it."

 

"That doesn't seem honest", said Black Bear.

 

"It doesn't begin with honesty", said Raven.

 

From Zen Master Raven: Sayings and Doings of a Wise Bird (Robert Aitken)

 

 

 

 

I feel compassion for all of those duped by such a sentient orientated BS.

 

Different schools of Buddhism have differing views on compassion. The prajnaparamita tradition says there can be no compassion or Karuṇā without prajna. Thus, for the above Western Zen fellow to suggest honesty is not needed to express genuine compassion, is disinformation at the very least, and sure contains neither compassion, nor prajna.

 

In other words,...only one that is fully attached to sentience would suggest such a statement as Ravens "It doesn't begin with honesty." But such is par for today's faith-based Zen fellows,...like the compassionless, prajnaless, fully ignoraant Thich Nhat Hanh.

 

Yes,...the inter-faith-based love stuff like Robert Aitkin's cute animal sayings,...it supports their own faith based, sensory intelligence. It glorifies dishonesty.

[Aaron]

I feel compassion for all of those duped by such a sentient orientated BS.

 

Different schools of Buddhism have differing views on compassion. The prajnaparamita tradition says there can be no compassion or Karuṇā without prajna. Thus, for the above Western Zen fellow to suggest honesty is not needed to express genuine compassion, is disinformation at the very least, and sure contains neither compassion, nor prajna.

 

In other words,...only one that is fully attached to sentience would suggest such a statement as Ravens "It doesn't begin with honesty." But such is par for today's faith-based Zen fellows,...like the compassionless, prajnaless, fully ignoraant Thich Nhat Hanh.

 

Yes,...the inter-faith-based love stuff like Robert Aitkin's cute animal sayings,...it supports their own faith based, sensory intelligence. It glorifies dishonesty.

 

What exactly do you consider the eightfold path to be? Isn't it essentially saying fake it til you make it? I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding this concept. Maybe you're just opposed to actual compassion as an act and would rather philosophize over it, because that is so much easier and you don't have to get your hands dirty.

 

The next time your kids come to you for help or solace, tell them that you can't help them because it would require a sentient orientated response. I'm sure they'll understand.

 

Aaron

 

P.S. Read more Suzuki and less Jed McKenna. McKenna is really ego-driven, you hear it in the way he talks to others. I've watched a few more vids about him on Youtube and I kept thinking, this is 40 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Aaron

[Vmarco]

What exactly do you consider the eightfold path to be? Isn't it essentially saying fake it til you make it? I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding this concept. Maybe you're just opposed to actual compassion as an act and would rather philosophize over it, because that is so much easier and you don't have to get your hands dirty.

 

 

Aaron

 

 

Nice line,..."fake it till you make it",...absolutely,...the problem however, is the downplaying on the faking, to point where MOST believe the faking is real.

 

By all means fake,...fake it 24/7,...but also understand 24/7, that it is all a fake. Not once falling asleep to the fact that your compassion is a fake,...until it's real. Calling fake compassion, real compassion, will not make the fake real,...but it will forever obscure real compassion.

 

A New Age correctly purveyor said,..."we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

[zanshin]

What if the fake is real? Sometimes I feel like I don't want to help but do it anyway because I feel like I should. Then later I realize I did what I wanted to do and feel happy about it, more so than if I'd not helped and gone off to relax, philosophize and watch YouTube videos.

[Aaron]

A couple of weeks ago I ran into a young man who was homeless. I spent some time and talked with him and found out that he was on a disability and that there really was no reason for him to be homeless, essentially, because he was developmentally disabled and wasn't quite capable of finding a home for himself, he had fallen through the cracks.

 

I offered to help the kid out, talk with his caseworkers and such, to try and find out whether there was anything I could do, but the kid, having spent a good portion of his life on the streets, found it hard to trust me, thinking there must be some reason why I wanted to help. He found it difficult to comprehend that I wanted to help simply because I felt sympathy for him and his situation. Two weeks passed and I saw him a few times, offered to help again, but he never really seemed interested.

 

This morning he showed up on my doorstep, frantic and anxious, and asked me for help. I got cleaned up and walked with him to the local community center to talk with his case workers, While there I learned more about his situation and set about finding him a place to stay.

 

It took me all of two hours to find him a permanent place to stay. I also talked with him about counseling and long term solutions to prevent him from ending up on the streets again.

 

Two hours and I was able to help this kid out. I actually thought it might take weeks, but it didn't. The point is, I reached out and helped him without expecting anything in return. The reason I did this was because I am a Taoist and I think that's what Taoism teaches. So when I hear all this talk about compassion and say, "show me, don't tell me" it's not because I'm asking people to do something I'm not willing to do, but because it's imperative for us to be compassionate, before we can understand compassion.

 

With that said, I'm not going to be responding to personal comments, just posting this here so people have the chance to see how compassion can benefit other people. All it takes is offering to help, selflessly. If you can do that you can change a person's life. You wont ease their suffering forever, but maybe you can help them out for just a day, a month, or until their next meal. Unless you're willing to help, it wont work.

 

So for all those philosophical Taoists talking the talk, I ask this question, are you walking the walk? I know I had let that part of my practice falter and it wasn't until I got involved today that I saw how much of a difference it can make.

 

(Oh and one of the case managers I was talking to offered to help me find work in the non-profit sector if I want it, so I got something out of it without even expecting to, that's Taoism at work.)

 

Aaron

[manitou]

Nice, Aaron.

 

Yes, there's the rub. Walking the talk. It makes me smile when folks on this forum talk the talk but are consistently getting into mean-spirited back and forths here. Best to walk the talk even when we're typing.

Edited April 16, 2013 by manitou