Bagua Zhang and Longevity

[Astral Monk]

Many people who speak/write about the art of Bagua Zhang and its principle exercise, circle walking, express how these practices are excellent for longevity. Walking the circle, it is often said, is all one needs to do for health and long life. However, where is the evidence for this?

 

Certainly, bagua zhang practioners are quite supple and strong, and notably so even into old age. There is a lot to be said for the twisting and squeezing aspects of the art and the constant focus on circular patterns. It would make sense to see this connected to longevity.

 

But, when we look at the history of bagua zhang masters, we don't see a lot of long-lived people. With very few exceptions, the great masters of bagua zhang consistently seem to live 50, 60, or 70 years. That is, not much more than the average population. Even Dong Hai Chuan, the modern founder of the art, only lived around 85 years.

 

Any thoughts as to why this is the case?

 

How about contemporary bagua zhang masters? Are they living to 100 or more?

 

8)

 

Dong Hai Chuan

[baiqi]

Certainly, bagua zhang practioners are quite supple and strong, and notably so even into old age.

 

I think that it is what matters the most, don't you? Living life fully, healthy, happy, not necesseraly extremly old and crippled...

 

Besides:

 

Lü Zijian: 118 years old.

Li Ziming: 91 years old

Sha Guozheng: 88 years old

 

And... Li Qingyun: 250 years old.

 

Ok, one may debate about the last one.

 

Many factors come into play when we talk about longevity. Eating, smoking (or not!), drinking, and heredity. I have no doubt that bagua zhang can be great for living older, but you have to be realistic.

 

Some masters where fighters, and did die because of fighting. ( Cheng Tinghua, Ma Weiqi...) Some where very poor, and suffered from starvation during their youth ( Sun Lutang, Yin Fu).

[Astral Monk]

Many factors come into play when we talk about longevity. Eating, smoking (or not!), drinking, and heredity. I have no doubt that bagua zhang can be great for living older, but you have to be realistic.

 

Some masters where fighters, and did die because of fighting. ( Cheng Tinghua, Ma Weiqi...) Some where very poor, and suffered from starvation during their youth ( Sun Lutang, Yin Fu).

 

All good points. I'm wondering if the difficult times that these modern masters lived is the cause. As it is, most modern bagua zhang masters lived during the 1900s through so many conflicts and upheavals in China (and globally), even having to supress their own art for a time. Which is why I wonder if we will see more longevity in the contemporary generations of bagua practioners than their predecessors.

 

The question remains whether bagua zhang does promote longevity in a tangible way. Or would a person be better served (longevity-wise) to practive Taiji? Is there an independent source of info we could observe? For instance, a group of people who only do circle walking without practicing any martial aspects of bagua zhang? If such people exist, do they have more longevity than the average person?

 

8)

Edited March 13, 2013 by Astral Monk

[Baguakid]

I practice bagua and can say when done correctly.. key word here, "correctly".. it is very demanding. It is not like taiji in which most anyone can do it. It is very difficult and demanding. In our art it is said, within the internal arts, few practice bagua and within the art of bagua, few practice it correctly.

 

 

Does it promote longevity. The jury's still out IMO....

[Trunk]

For myself, I find it fun, interesting, and it's had noticable benefit to my health (just from my own observation).

 

I think that it's very difficult to prove anything beyond that.

 

I'm happy.

[Baguakid]

All the major three internal arts promote longevity as they release internal blockages and improve correct posture and spinal alignment. Regarding Bagua yes it is demanding if done correctly but if not balanced correctly with still work you train like an

rather than a Buddha or a T/Daoist sage. You need to balance if with seated meditation to avoid excessive grounding (egomaniac syndrome), which is as bad as no grounding at all.

Agreed.. Yin and Yang balance.

[JustBHappy]

It seems to me that many great masters not only live a long life, but also enjoy excellent health from their practice.

I think for any practice touted as increasing longevity you will find examples of people who both prove and disprove it's effectiveness. For me, I was sold when I saw first hand the limitless well of energy a great master can have. The master was around 60 and I was 38 with 20 years of martial experience and I simply could not keep up and was dying to go sit down. Every single day he gets up early and walks, and walks and walks and I've yet to see any student keep up and match his practice. It wasn't until a few years later that I started experiencing a little taste of how it feels when the channels open up in the legs and waist and walking becomes blissful and effortless.

 

There are truly some internal benefits in Bagua that could increase ones longevity and quality of life. Although this is true, we can't ignore all the other factors in the equation just because we practice Bagua. There are hereditary, diet, lifestyle, and environmental factors that could easily shorten ones life expectancy.

[Astral Monk]

When the Chinese say something promotes 'longevity', should we just take it to mean something like when we in the west say 'its good for you'? Rather than literally thinking it will stretch out your lifespan?

 

Because obviously a master who says his practice will promote longevity when he is in his 40s or 50s can't really know that it will take him to his 100s or 120s..until it actually does. Or until he sees his own master at that level. And I'm not sure anyone can say about a given practice that it promotes longevity in this sense unless we consistently observe practicioners and masters of the practice alike reaching and exceeding these milestones.

 

Is this a case of 'the way is narrow', so that the key is there but very, very few do it 'right'?

 

Or is it a case of sweetening the honey pot with a suggestion of outcomes that can't be demonstrably linked to the practice?

 

hmm....

 

8)

[spiraltao]

IMO the main reason that I have found bgz would be a more taxing play on the body than Tai Chi is in the heart/cardio area. Not that taiji couldnt be taken to the same level in play. I had my teacher once tell me that a taiji master said bgz will offer the player some gifts that no other IMA can. 2 cents.

[Baguakid]

The real question(s) is/are, what practices promote longevity and then does Bagua contain those practices.

 

Is opening channels enough to promote longevity or is more needed?

[Baguakid]

Why extend life when enlightenment is attained...focusing on this is more important that wandering on this planet for 400 years looking for the Holy Grial.

 

How many, out of the billions of people on this planet, have achieved enlightenment? Who clearly knows and teaches a clear, concise path.

 

I know of no one in my lifetime. Easy to speak of enlightenment, exceptionally difficult to grasp and obtain.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Baguakid

[spiraltao]

It is about making the quality of life better for me, initially. Not to mention baguazhang being overly lethal (art of overkill) which is something I have looked for since I started this martial journey, the ultimate way to defend ones/loved ones life. ...And it changed my physical shell and my internal works from near depleted to flourishing.

[spiraltao]

Also baguazhang circle walking is a transformation process. and we all have to start somewhere. Alot of emotions will release when the points twist/activate/open to circulate fresh qi. The legs manifest the five 'myelements and the upper body manifests the eight forces of nature.

 

When I was a teen I remember thinking I don't want to get old and feeble. Well, I feel the feeble part is as much a part of longevity as age or lack of being feeble, what I mean is if I am eighty and feeble or 45 and feeble I would feel old do the fact that from my rheumatism would surely lead me to being feeble far before "my time" if not for baguazhang.

 

I hope that made sense, really trying to fill in space for that double post, lol.

Edited March 20, 2013 by spiraltao

[zerostao]

thought i would share this morning, from joy harjo.

was gonna put in cherokee immortals, but it fits nicely here, i thinks hehehe

and gerard, i cant believe you said the word discipline!

well i can , but it is kinda an inside joke for a few of us.

 

the eagle poem

 

[tao stillness]

I would like to reply to the Bagua question of how many people have reached enlightenment.

Usually before reaching enlightenment people achieve Awakening. Per the Oneness Blessing movement, Awakening is a state of consciousness due to rewiring of the brain which quiets the parietal lobes and enlivens the frontal lobes. This pushes aside the ego and causes Awakening which is when the Kundalini reaches the brain and stays there instead of going back down. In this state you then experience in the here and now thru direct perception of consciousness instead of unconsciously having old memories and associations from past experiences color your perceptions of any event. Another result of Awakening is that you still have full range of emotions but the effect of an emotional charge no longer stays with you and bothers you. It just washes away in a few minutes or less. It is said that now when anyone goes for a 2 week course at Oneness University in south India they become Awakened. 100% of the course participants now achieve Awakening by the end of the course due to the Oneness energy there. Of course, the next step would be Enlightenment and I would assume that would happen when much more of the population becomes Awakened which I have heard should start happening in 2018.

[Gerard]

It will open your MIND and if this happens fully then you won't need to worry about longevity anymore.

 

Bagua has a lot of details as He Jinghan explains clearly in this excellent video.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Gerard