Zhan Zhuang and listening to/watching other things

[estuary]

I've been doing the very beginnings of zhan zhuang (according to Stand Still be Fit on youtube and The Way of Energy) for about 6 weeks. According to Lam Kam Chuen, it's ok to listen to music or a tv or radio program while practicing.

 

I'm wondering what those of you who've practiced this (or even another relevant qigong method) have to say about this. Is it a distraction? A useful tool to get the time-keeper mind to shut up and just let the whole thing unfold? I think it's helping me get past some really early hurdles like "4 minutes in and I hate this" when I'm plugging along on my audio German lesson or listening to music that I know will end at the right time. I don't have to fight anything it seems. But I wonder if it short-circuits my ability to also pay attention to what's going on in the body. Any drawbacks to this?

 

Thanks!

[Kasuku]

Yep, fix total concentration on the dantian, or emptiness. Ideally start with flowing and building ur energy through moving medition before consolidating it in zhan zhuang. How can ur generative force be generated in the beginning if ur concentrating on watching TV! LOL.Watching TV would prob cause chi to rise to the head anyway. which is not what you want!

[Kasuku]

and don't try and keep time... quality is better... if u can build ur energy in 1 minute of standing u dont need an hour of torture with no building

[voidisyinyang]

You'd want to listen to trance music or chanting to create right brain dominance which will then activate your lower body energy via the right side vagus nerve.

 

Left brain dominance won't do this.

 

So keeping the eyes closed is at least a minimum.

 

I just did 12 hours of full lotus at the computer -- watching survivalist shows -- but it doesn't store up energy since the eyes are open. It does clear out blockages though -- so it's not standing but similar.

 

Anyway the goal is a concentrated mind -- one thought -- which then empties out into light energy and that will create the chi energy.

[Gemstone]

Don´t bring your life into your cultivation.

Bring your cultivation into your life.

 

 

From my experience (years of practice with these stances) you should have few distractions when training,

If you play music, make shure it supports both relaxation and clarity of mind. For me Zen flute music does that.

Try "Music for Zen meditation" by Tony Scott if you like to try it.

 

There is nothing wrong with employing the postures while watching the news, brushing your teeth etc, but don´t

count it as cultivation. It is training for the training.

[Ish]

Should do both, like you said it will help your body to be accustomed to the posture.

 

The core of it is practicing it as meditation. You will build much more energy this way.

[寒月 Hanyue]

意拳 yiquan, the name says it all. The practice is about your 意 yi, initially your awareness, then your intent.

 

Beginners are sometimes advised to distract the yi because they have no discipline yet, and because the postures are going to make you ache and hurt. Trying to apply your 意 yi when you are in pain is pretty hard. So you distract yourself until your body becomes more comfortable, or until you learn the mental discipline.

 

But as soon as possible, sooner rather than later, but eveyone is different. You want to switch to having the development of the yi 意 is the primary aspect of training. The 形 xing (shape/body) is used to train/develop the yi 意.

 

In yiquan you do not want an overly strong focus upon the dantian, it is not Daoist neigong.

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

I've been doing the very beginnings of zhan zhuang (according to Stand Still be Fit on youtube and The Way of Energy) for about 6 weeks. According to Lam Kam Chuen, it's ok to listen to music or a tv or radio program while practicing.

 

I'm wondering what those of you who've practiced this (or even another relevant qigong method) have to say about this. Is it a distraction? A useful tool to get the time-keeper mind to shut up and just let the whole thing unfold? I think it's helping me get past some really early hurdles like "4 minutes in and I hate this" when I'm plugging along on my audio German lesson or listening to music that I know will end at the right time. I don't have to fight anything it seems. But I wonder if it short-circuits my ability to also pay attention to what's going on in the body. Any drawbacks to this?

 

Thanks!

 

There are many posts on the same subject. It would be advisable to go back to find them in the earlier pages. IMMHO There is no distraction. I do zhan zhuang every night while watching TV for years. I have no drawbacks.

 

PS....

I think most people are complicating the practice of zhan zhuang. It is really a very simple method for all martial arts.

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Astral Monk]

Seriously though, if you're only starting and working from 5 min up, don't you have enough to focus on with maintaining your posture and balance and focus without having media playing..? I'm already trying to use the mind to relax the body at the extreme ends, as things start getting sore or seemingly, and I'm only working upwards of 6 minute intervals!! I think that one might only be able to take in other media after a certain level has been reached. Not as a recommendation for just starting out. You don't want to establish bad habits from the start, right?

 

8)

[Wisdom Seeker]

Hello. I am so glad to hear you are beginning this study. Ideally, you want to practice this outside. Let nature be your music. As far a TV goes, DON'T. It may provide noise, but also offers the temptation of 'looking' when an interesting story or scene appears. Even if you don't look, the desire to look will take away from your standing results. To get the most benefits, remaining stationary is important. Even just turning your head or your eyes will change the feelings. If you must do these indoors, I prefer a soft music without words. Lyrics only translate to images in your head. There is actually music for tai chi and zhan zhuang. Just go to Google and search for MP3's of tai chi music or something similar. You will find what you need. Your focus should be on 'Nothing' for the simplest method. Just feel. This method builds energy on its own. While 1 minute may produce energy, 5 minutes will produce a different feeling. Everyone experiences different things at different times. For me, 5 minutes per posture was the game changer. 10 minutes was better yet. 20 even better. At first, these may be painful and annoying, but as you relax more and align better, standing will become effortless. There are so many subtle things to simultaneously incorporate during practice, that it may take you several minutes to incorporate them all. DO NOT RUSH to get to higher times. Add time to your standing gradually. Keep reinforcing the principals. Say them over and over during practice. It doesn't matter how long you stand if you are not standing the right way. Play games to occupy the mind (email me for specific examples), focus on an object in the far distance, feel the pressure on the foot at all times to determine where the weight has shifted, etc, etc. There are many ways/things you can do to pass the time while standing still. You will discover more as you practice more. Stick with it! This is an amazing practice.

 

[estuary]

Thanks for the stimulating replies, everybody!

There are many posts on the same subject. It would be advisable to go back to find them in the earlier pages.

 

I did a brief search but perhaps the often-vague subject titles didn't lead me in the right direction and I don't have enough online time to wade through really long, diffuse, threads - many of which are really beyond my level anyway. So, sorry, I had to ask my newbie question up front.

 

It's interesting to hear such diverse suggestions - everything from: 1 minute of quality time is primo vs. undistracted, purposeful cultivation is better vs. don't complicate it, just stand.

 

I guess then I have spinoff questions and comments:

 

don't try and keep time...

unfortunate reality is that I have a timeframe in which to do this before the day runs rampant.

 

quality is better... if u can build ur energy in 1 minute of standing u dont need an hour of torture with no building

How likely am I, a total beginner with no foundation, to get that 1 minute of building anything? Maybe this is a misguided idea, but the fact that I am currently oblivious to energy flow gives me this image: a kid making mud pies versus a master potter having put in thousands of hours of attentiveness in order to throw clay on the wheel and "magically" make it a beautiful vessel.

 

I'm wary of delusions of grandeur (mine or anybody else's) and figure I should probably work my way through some basics first. Honestly, I'm just Average Joe - nothing miraculous happening (yet?).

 

 

Seriously though, if you're only starting and working from 5 min up, don't you have enough to focus on with maintaining your posture and balance and focus without having media playing..? I'm already trying to use the mind to relax the body at the extreme ends, as things start getting sore or seemingly, and I'm only working upwards of 6 minute intervals!! I think that one might only be able to take in other media after a certain level has been reached. Not as a recommendation for just starting out. You don't want to establish bad habits from the start, right?

"Don't you have enough to focus on?" is a valid question and my answer is "I don't know." I don't find balance difficult. I could keep my eyes closed through the whole thing though I'm not sure it's recommended. In spite of what I'm listening to I still pay attention to the rest of the experience - though admittedly my attention comes and goes and travels through the whole experience - from my breathing to locating tension, to noticing relaxation, to experiences of warmth or "buzzing." I've been alternating between listening or not listening to something and the only major difference I've noticed is that if, after a day or two practicing in silence (when all I could hear was that ridiculous critic chattering away about how much discomfort I'm in and how stupid I am) upon listening to either music or the StandStillBeFit audio or my German lesson, I just stand. The idiot shuts up. I have the vague sense that the session is very slightly "diluted" but I'm still likely to get similar warming/tingling/trembling - just minus the mental pain-maker.

 

I don't have a problem with being "tricksy" at all - if that dear internal/infernal voice gets bypassed and meanwhile I teach my arms that they're not going to die because I held them in front of me for 6 or 10 minutes I'm not sure that's bad. Like getting a kid to ride a bike by reassuring them that you're still holding on! meanwhile they're off and around the corner!

 

 

There is nothing wrong with employing the postures while watching the news, brushing your teeth etc, but don´t

count it as cultivation. It is training for the training.

Really? Maybe it's the cause of my having "accomplished" very little, but I'm very process oriented. So I don't know if I have a goal here at all that cultivation can "count toward." Why exactly then am I doing this? Ok, there is a goal - I think it's good to pay attention to my body, to figure out what's going in/with/around/because of it. I'm curious to see if these very basics like attention, breath, stance are so fundamental that everything else is fluff and frosting. (that sounds cockier than I mean, please take no offense). I'm aware that I've had 42 years of non-training (interspersed with bits and bobs) and maybe it's good to just take a moment and look at basics and my honest experience.

 

I think most people are complicating the practice of zhan zhuang. It is really a very simple method for all martial arts.

 

!!

 

 

Don´t bring your life into your cultivation.

Bring your cultivation into your life.

 

not sure I understand that but it sounds nice - I kind of think of the "boundary" as porous anyway and the traffic as two directional...

 

If you play music, make sure it supports both relaxation and clarity of mind. For me Zen flute music does that.

Try "Music for Zen meditation" by Tony Scott if you like to try it.

I may look into that, thanks!

[Astral Monk]

"Don't you have enough to focus on?" is a valid question and my answer is "I don't know." I don't find balance difficult. I could keep my eyes closed through the whole thing though I'm not sure it's recommended.

 

If your balance is perfect, that's great! Then, as Master Lam says, take the posture deeper until you're less confortable. Bend the knees more. Remember to keep the weight over the middle of the foot towards the toes and not stand back on the heels. Keep the tailbone tucked and done let it curl back out to arch the back. Don't let your knees move outwards, but keep them flexed slightly inward. Head straight, chin slightly tucked, chest relaxed.

 

You can close your eyes. The reason Master Lam recommends no to at first is in case your balance and stability is not there yet. Once you're well practiced its OK. But staring at one point is more difficult than closing your eyes!

 

And if all that is good, try longer periods. It really is a challenge. Master Lam does say listening or 'watching' media is fine, but you will eventually need to leave that behind. If it helps you now, that's good. But you can't depend on that. If you want to progress you will have to push past the boredom and internal chatter without an external aid. I find that to be a challenge when doing a longer qigong set--I get anxious to 'finish' and start thinking about time. Another hurdle to overcome!

 

8)

[estuary]

意拳 yiquan, the name says it all.

I laughed because my Chinese is really poor (I call it kitchen-Chinese because of my only-daily-life vocab) and I can't read worth a damn so I google-translated yiquan and got: Italian boxing!! Anyway, thanks for your comment and recognition of the sometime-need to bypass the mind's tendency to fixate on pain before it's been trained to move past it...

 

Hello. I am so glad to hear you are beginning this study. Ideally, you want to practice this outside. Let nature be your music. As far a TV goes, DON'T. It may provide noise, but also offers the temptation of 'looking' when an interesting story or scene appears. Even if you don't look, the desire to look will take away from your standing results. To get the most benefits, remaining stationary is important. Even just turning your head or your eyes will change the feelings. If you must do these indoors, I prefer a soft music without words. Lyrics only translate to images in your head. There is actually music for tai chi and zhan zhuang. Just go to Google and search for MP3's of tai chi music or something similar. You will find what you need. Your focus should be on 'Nothing' for the simplest method.

These all sound like intuitively good suggestions, thank you!

 

I'm waiting for the snow to melt and the temp to rise a little before going back out to do zhan zhuang. Outdoors will be a periodic thing, as my main allotted time is before the kids are up.

 

I definitely haven't watched tv or videos - THAT seems way too distracting. Music "seemed" fine to me but then so too did the language lessons... ?

 

 

Just feel. This method builds energy on its own. While 1 minute may produce energy, 5 minutes will produce a different feeling. Everyone experiences different things at different times. For me, 5 minutes per posture was the game changer. 10 minutes was better yet. 20 even better. At first, these may be painful and annoying, but as you relax more and align better, standing will become effortless. There are so many subtle things to simultaneously incorporate during practice, that it may take you several minutes to incorporate them all. DO NOT RUSH to get to higher times. Add time to your standing gradually. Keep reinforcing the principals. Say them over and over during practice. It doesn't matter how long you stand if you are not standing the right way. Play games to occupy the mind (email me for specific examples), focus on an object in the far distance, feel the pressure on the foot at all times to determine where the weight has shifted, etc, etc. There are many ways/things you can do to pass the time while standing still. You will discover more as you practice more. Stick with it! This is an amazing practice.

 

This really affirms the attitude I've had so far - I'm in no hurry. Just wanting to feel what there is. I'm not sure I'm really "reinforcing principles" per say, but I do keep bringing attention back to what there is (or noticing how I try to "flee" when things get uncomfortable... ah, silly humans!!). One of the most surprising things so far is how it's possible for my feet to feel rooted, grounded...and good in that.

 

Thanks for the "stick with it" - periodic bouts of doubt have plagued me. ("What the heck AM I doing!?!")

[hydrogen]

Zhan zhuang is not for beginers.

 

If you haven't done any energy work, raise a family with limited time, some movement qigong or yoga might be better for you.

 

Are you doing belly breathing? Are your meridian channels mostly open? If not, I don't know how much benefit you can get from Zhan zhuang.

[ChiDragon]

Estuary...
To save you some time, here are some discussions which took place in this forum. Please ignore all the nasty remarks; they just come with the package....

Zhan Zhuang

 

Jin related to Zhan Zhuang

[estuary]

Chi Dragon, that was VERY nice of you to pull some links out of TTB vastness. I shall peruse and appreciate the advance notice of what comes with the terrain...

 

hydrogen - well as they say, "fools rush in."

[JohnC]

Listen to Lam Kam Chuen, he is the teacher on this.... I've practiced zhan zhuang for years holding consistently for hours regularly while watching a movie or the like, and have developed and cleared tons of energy.

 

And time is a point of it... if your developing a bunch of quality energy, don't cut it short. Stick it out for an hour at least if you can.

 

John

[Astral Monk]

Two ideas that I disagree with and I just want to highlight.

 

One, the idea that practicting while not 'practicing' is NOT practicting--eg, assuming a perfect standing post while brushing your teeth doesn't count as 'practice'. Any amount of practice is good. The best masters work to 'practice' all day long at everything they do. They bring their practice to their lives and don't keep it contained in the gym or the timespace where 'real practice takes place'. Perhaps there are things you won't accomplish if assuming a perfect posture while brushing your teeth, but that doesn't mean it isn't an extension of real practice, and a legitimate one at that. Every little bit helps, and I don't think we should only look to a specific time, place, or mindset for real practice to happen. After all, true breakthroughs happen in an instant.

 

Second, the idea that Zhan Zhuang isn't for beginners. On the contrary, standing post practice is the most acccessible practice I can imagine. All you have to do is stand. Nothing else! How can this not be for 'beginners'? This is a practice that anyone at any skill level can utilize. And in fact, I recommend a healthy dose of standing post before you start doing any moving exercises like taiji or bagua zhang, not only as a warm up, but as a foundation exercise. If you can stand strong and properly you will be able to move with poise, balance, and power.

 

Sure, to get the most out of a practice like standing post you will need dedicated time to focus just on that. And of course only after a certain level of proficiency is achieved will you see or feel extensive and lasting results. I don't think that any practice, especially Zhan Zhuang, is geared to give every person instant results. Its a challenge that you need to work towards.

 

In the meantime I don't think we ought to get caught up in limiting what is and isn't true practice. As long as you're observing the fundamentals and keeping your mind active and focussed with pure intent to advance your own capabilities, you are practicing, even if that's for a few minutes while peeling the potatoes!

 

All the moreso since in Zhan Zhuang, at least how Master Lam describes it, you aren't trying to make your energy do anything, unlike many qigong forms. You just stand--and trust your body (at all its various interconnected levels) to sort itself out.

 

8)

[lifeforce]

Good post Astral Monk !

 

Way back in the mists of time beginning xingyi students had to stand in santi for 3 years +, before they were taught any forms.

Sadly times have changed, and people want results quick and are not prepared to do the foundational skills needed to seriously master the art. I, myself was taught the 5 element fists, but I've gone back to the traditional way of only practicing santi for 3 years +. Then I will add the forms to my practice.

[ChiDragon]

Before going into deep practice of any method, at least, one should know what is the purpose and what to expect to be accomplished. Thus knowing the principle in advance, one will be more appreciative and effective in doing the practice.

Edited March 17, 2013 by ChiDragon

[三江源]

If watching something helps you to do it, that's fine. Watch comedy or music video's though,ideally. Nothing vexing!

[i am]

As you can see, there are all kinds of takes on this. Don't take any one person's advice as doctrine. But you will begin to recognize who knows more, and who resonates with you more. There are different reasons for practicing standing, and depending on what your reasons are, your practice will be different. snowmonki taught me that.

 

One thing I can say is that if you follow Lam Kam Chuen's advice, you won't go wrong. People here can give you their opinion and knowledge, but Master Lam knows what he's talking about, and you don't need to second guess his advice.

 

But absolutely, some of the things he advises in the beginning of the book seem to me to be strictly to get you do it, and stick with it. It might not be a good habit to get into; watching tv while standing...but whatever gets you to where do it, and keep doing it, is probably ok. He understands us Westerners and how little we can focus. So he allows you to "do other stuff" in the beginning, in the hopes that you'll stick it out and search deeper.

 

If you actually get a practice going where you make a habit of it, then you can start doing it "right". You'll be getting the strictly health benefits, as long as your body structure is right, whether you're watching tv or not. You'll just get more mental and more physical results when you start to shut off outside entertainment and focus on your body.

 

Do read those other threads, and don't be afraid to post questions if you need clarification on something. You'll always get a bunch of answer that conflict and sometimes contradict each other, but you'll start getting a feel for who you want to listen to depending on the reason you're practicing zhan zhuang, and little by little it'll be even more mysterious and hard to grasp as you start to realize the depth of it, but at the same it'll seem more and more accessible and less intimidating.

[i am]

And then later in the book he talks about bringing the concepts of zhan zhuang into daily life, mostly in a body mechanics way.

 

He doesn't go too in-depth in any of the practice, he just makes sure your structure is right and you have the foundations. From there you can keep that as your practice, or dig deeper from other sources.

 

So yes, you want to bring your practice into daily life, so that your entire life is "practice". But when it comes time to stand and do your (hopefully) daily zhan zhuang, you want to get to where you're not watching anything, and if you're listening to anything, it's just background/meditation music. You want your focus within, not without.

 

But, whatever it takes, at first, to get you to do it! I think you should start out doing it without distractions. But if you need entertainment to get you to do it, then OK.

[三江源]

But, whatever it takes, at first, to get you to do it! I think you should start out doing it without distractions. But if you need entertainment to get you to do it, then OK.

This is it, and the main thing is to relax, so if you need a distraction, dont even worry about it at all. Seriously. There is just no reason at all , none, that what needs to happen cant happen with a tv programme on.

 

 

You'd be amazed.

 

John C above said:

I've practiced zhan zhuang for years holding consistently for hours regularly while watching a movie or the like, and have developed and cleared tons of energy.

so there you go.

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend