Zhan Zhuang and listening to/watching other things

[ChiDragon]

He understands us Westerners and how little we can focus. So he allows you to "do other stuff" in the beginning, in the
hopes that you'll stick it out and search deeper.

That is the scary part. He will try to please Westerners by allowing them to have deviations. Perhaps he didn't want to loose a single student by letting the students to dictate what he should teach them. I am getting to realize that why each westerner has a different version of the story for the same style.

[三江源]

.......... in the

hopes that you'll stick it out and search deeper.

I never felt that I had to search during standing, to me its a complete practice that takes you where it intends to. Body stance creates consciousness, simply by being held. I was taught that no effort by mind was required, the stance was way more powerful than my mind.

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

I never felt that I had to search during standing, to me its a complete practice that takes you where it intends to. Body stance creates consciousness, simply by being held. I was taught that no effort by mind was required, the stance was way more powerful than my mind.

 

That's all I could say is that you had found a most competent teacher which tells you no more or less. Why make things more complicated than it was unnecessary....!!!

 

 

 

@ Friend..............

Edited March 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[i am]

I never felt that I had to search during standing, to me its a complete practice that takes you where it intends to. Body stance creates consciousness, simply by being held. I was taught that no effort by mind was required, the stance was way more powerful than my mind.

 

Yeah, it really does depend on how you were taught.

 

But I think even with the most simple exercise, there's likely no end to how deep it can go. Unless you do it while watching tv. It's not like I know anything, I'm just guessing here that standing and watching tv may line some things up and give you more energy, but that's it.

 

When I first started Master Lam's book, it seemed the idea was to relax every muscle in your body. Total relaxation. That didn't jive with what my martial arts teacher taught, but whatever. I'm standing for reasons other than martial, so maybe that's the difference. Then I finally got around to reading this, which someone posted a while back:

 

http://imos-journal.net/?p=1138

 

And I think "work"? "Uprooting a tree"? Focused, "ready to act"? Well the next morning when I stood, if I imagined being as relaxed as possible, but visualizing trying to gently uproot the tree I was hugging...very different feeling.

 

And I think, well where's this in Master Lam's book? Is his book just strictly for building more energy? Nothing deeper, nothing martial?

 

But then I skim through the book again, and in the more advanced exercises, instead of just "holding the balloon", you start "filling the balloon". Imagining there's weight. Now suddenly you're doing some work, both with your mind and body. Sounds pretty damn similar to "uprooting a tree", doesn't it?

 

Well, I think Master Lam's approach is, first, get people up and doing. Whatever it takes. Then, get them to learn to fully, totally relax in the posture, because that is by far people's biggest issues. Learning to relax your body in general, but especially in a zhan zhuang posture. Then, when you think they're reasonably relaxed and doing things right, start the real work of standing.

 

 

 

Yeah, we can take shots at him for catering to Westerners, but the world has changed. It's great that there are still teachers who will only teach in the "old way", and not cater. But I for one am glad that certain masters have realized that if they want these teachings to survive into the future, and they care about people getting interested in them, they have to change things a bit. Is the fact that millions of people in the US practice a yoga that is at most superficially spiritual a bad thing? Or is it great that so many people are starting to pay attention to their health, and stretching, and quieting things down? And then a certain number of those people will get intrigued and start searching out the real thing.

 

The same happens with Chinese martial arts and spiritual training. Those who get introduced in a way that's accessible to them, and the practice resonates with them, will seek out more traditional, disciplined training. But even though there are some teachers just out there to make some money and are watering things down and not doing anyone any favors, I think there are also a lot of teachers who are genuinely interested in spreading these teachings, and are "dumbing things down" a little, without sacrificing the core practice, to get more people interested.

 

I would guess that they would still give deeper teachings to interested, worthy students.

[三江源]

But I think even with the most simple exercise, there's likely no end to how deep it can go.

I agree. The only impediment is not doing the excercise.

 

Whole body breathing is another excercise to add to this.

[ChiDragon]

estuary....
As you can see, that there are so many discrepancies and in consistences. Now, it's up to you to reach your own conclusion.
However, it is good to know that we do have three members are in agreement. There is another member here do agree with us, in the past, on the same subject. However, he indicated that he was fed up with the disharmony with other members in the forum and declined to post much. Thus his identity shall not be disclosed. In conclusion, there are really four of us, here, in consistence with your OP.

BTW "Horse stance" is another name for Zhan Zhuang.

Edited March 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[i am]

Except if you look into horse stance you'll also find something much more taxing and exhausting and painful....ask member Protector about that horse stance. Very different, and likely not what you want to be doing right now!

[ChiDragon]

He can ask me too........

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Horse Stance is one of Zhan Zhuang not another name.

And why not....???

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

 

Possibly the most well-known example of zhan zhuang training is the "horse stance" or ma bu 馬步

 

Okay fair enough...!!!

Would you settle with 站椿(Zhan Zhuang) = 扎馬步(zha1 ma bu) is getting to the horse stance....???

 

站椿(Zhan Zhuang) is the name of the method. 扎馬步(zha1 ma bu) is another name for Zhan Zhunag.

ma bu is the name given to "standing position" in Zhan Zhuang.

 

If someone wants to do Zhan Zhuang, he'll say I am going to do 扎馬步(zha1 ma bu). Commonly known, for short, as 扎馬(zha1 ma). For English speaking people, it sounds better to say "I am going to do 馬步(ma bu)".

Edited March 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Definitions are nice to know. I tend to not stick with one definition. It is better to understand all the definitions because they are very confusing. We must learn to distinguish them and filter out the unwanted notion. BTW This is part of the cultivation of the mind. Let others be confused but not oneself. We must make ourselves to live in an environment with high standards to provide a better means of communicate to avoid any linguistic and personal conflicts.

Cultivation of the mind is to keeping it in a state of emptiness. Emptiness means to have the mind clear and conscious to be aware what is going on internally and externally. Internal is the intellectual mentality. External is must remain vigilant in our adverse environment. Thus this is what cultivation of the mind is all about.

Edited March 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[宁]

Listen to Lam Kam Chuen, he is the teacher on this.... I've practiced zhan zhuang for years holding consistently for hours regularly while watching a movie or the like, and have developed and cleared tons of energy.

 

And time is a point of it... if your developing a bunch of quality energy, don't cut it short. Stick it out for an hour at least if you can.

 

John

 

 

THIS!

 

And you can also practice training your focus on your body as you progress.

 

What I mean is, after you get to the level when you can stand in ZZ for an hour (watching a nice movie), you can also start building up your awareness as well, first, say, by watching 30 min clips while standing for 1 hour, which means the latter half you'll focus your awareness on your practice more.

 

Gradually cut back the entertainment and you'll be fine. There are many ways to trick yourself into practicing, if you listen to the 'orthodox' experts too much you'll end up scared of trying anything at all.

 

无功夫不如笨功夫！

[ChiDragon]

Wow, the other member did come forward.

Welcome back! 宁......

[estuary]

oh my goodness, this topic took off when I wasn't looking! I'm phenomenally behind in reading but wanted to chime in with a "hang on, I'll catch up!" note and thank everyone for the lively discussion. Yay!

[i am]

You'll find more info about the people answering your question than you will about zhan zhaung in those links from page one, especially the first link. I highly recommend reading it, though.

 

For some reason chi dragon is happy to show you the topics in which he gets shown to be giving questionable advice, at best.

 

You'll be fine with the book you have.

 

This thread is long and full of argument also, but there are a couple GREAT posts, by Steve and by snowmonki are the ones coming to mind right now, on standing. Worth skimming if you find the time:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25395-what-does-standing-meditation-do-tofor-you/

 

But I'd say, practice from your book. If its a practice that really becomes a PRACTICE for you, then you can start digging deeper and reading up on more stuff. At its most basic, once you're sure your posture is correct and you aren't hurting your back or joints, it IS a very simple practice. But it can absolutely be taken deeper. I'm a total beginner, but that much I know.

 

Anyone know how to get an iPad to stop clumping all my paragraphs together the first time I post? I've always got to edit to get them apart...

Edited March 19, 2013 by i am

[ChiDragon]

....... At its most basic, once you're sure your posture is correct and you aren't hurting your back or joints, it IS a very simple practice. But it can absolutely be taken deeper. I'm a total beginner, but that much I know.

 

I am, myself, not you, no beginner. I can say this much. It is not the correct posture that determines the hurting sensation. At the beginning, even the posture is correct but it's inevitable for the leg muscles not to be painful. There is a painful period for the practitioner to be getting over the hurdle. Some take longer for the endurance which depends on the physiological condition of the practitioner. Finally, what it mounts to is the amount of time and effort that one puts into the practice for a stronger leg foundation.

[skydog]

Hi Estuary

 

When I did this exercise a year/two years ago I found it natural to just focus on different things to take up the time listening to music (good peaceful music) or hummin, omm, breathing etc. So whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

You might find after a while delving into the emptiness when pain/sensations come, could seem more natural.

 

Really it depends on you.

 

Peace

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[JustBHappy]

I like ChunYi Lin's take on practice and think it applies perfectly well in this discussion.

Good, Better, and Best.

Do Zhan Zhuang at the level you are ready to practice at and rejoice that you are doing something positive. In any practice there is always room for improvement and ways to increase the effectiveness, but doing a practice is still better than not doing a practice.

Keep in mind though that body structure in Zhan Zhuang is extremely important and is NOT intuitive or even natural feeling for beginners. Find a competent master to put you in the correct position before committing yourself to long practice times to avoid causing harm.

Good -----> doing the practice, even if your mind is not home
Better -----> doing the practice while using a single 'crutch' in other words a single object of attention

Best -----> relaxing into awareness and not fixating on any object of awareness. In short NonMeditation and NonDistraction.

[i am]

Yes.

 

 

The good teachers who "cater" to westerners (and probably your average Chinese needs catering to, also) for the reason that they want to help people.

 

So many people will NOT be committing their lives to spiritual or martial practice, but things like this can have a positivity effect on their health anyway. So should no one share these "secrets" with those unwilling to commit to the journey? That's the way it used to be, and a lot of arts were lost.

 

I'm glad there are teachers who present this stuff in a way modern people find accessible. Many of those people, who would have never got into it otherwise, might find resonance there and search out a deeper practice.

 

But I think it's fine for people to do some simple meditations and exercises "just for health".

Edited March 20, 2013 by i am

[三江源]

 

Good -----> doing the practice, even if your mind is not home

\Better -----> doing the practice while using a single 'crutch' in other words a single object of attention

Best -----> relaxing into awareness and not fixating on any object of awareness. In short NonMeditation and NonDistraction.

 

 

Good = acquaintance stage

 

Better = getting into it now

 

Best = in the groove

 

 

.....a continuum of progress will happen, wether you use a tv, a radio, birdsong, flute music, or block your ears and eyes.

 

thanks to the posture being a practice that works.

 

Worth bearing in mind that the option to stand in front of a tv or radio didnt exist when the excercises were evolved, so couldnt have been part of the original menu. Luckily we have options now.