Zhan Zhuang and listening to/watching other things

[joeblast]

better doing that than taking a nap after work/school

[宁]

I've tried shifting the focus from watching to listening, while doing ZZ. Used an mp3 of a science fiction short story.

It seems to trigger different responses than the visual stimuli, give it a shot!

[beatthinker]

if you are just worried about timing, just set an alarm. I use one for seated meditation and ZZ. that way, I forget about time and just sit/stand. but I agree, TV is never the answer.

[Wayfarer]

I've been doing the very beginnings of zhan zhuang (according to Stand Still be Fit on youtube and The Way of Energy) for about 6 weeks. According to Lam Kam Chuen, it's ok to listen to music or a tv or radio program while practicing.

 

I'm wondering what those of you who've practiced this (or even another relevant qigong method) have to say about this. Is it a distraction? A useful tool to get the time-keeper mind to shut up and just let the whole thing unfold? I think it's helping me get past some really early hurdles like "4 minutes in and I hate this" when I'm plugging along on my audio German lesson or listening to music that I know will end at the right time. I don't have to fight anything it seems. But I wonder if it short-circuits my ability to also pay attention to what's going on in the body. Any drawbacks to this?

 

Thanks!

 

Hey Estuary,

 

I have practised Zhan Zhuang for a few years and think its main benefits are:

 

1) Standing in a single posture tires the muscles - they want to move and relax but you are not allowing them to as a consequence the more tired they become the more oxygen is directed from the brain to those muscles so they have more energy to cope with the demands put on them. As pretty much all the muscles are in a state of tension the whole body gets a workout without moving. So the rush of energy comes 'after' the muscles have tired. Therefore unless you have stood long enough for the muscles to begin trembling or shaking you won't feel that energy buzz afterwards. I would say that this takes 15-20 minutes for most people.

 

2) Another advantage, which also occurs in Qigong if you repeat a single move for long enough is that at first the conscious thinking mind is piqued by the fact that the body is not moving, its interest then follows wherever pain is felt, or balance needs adjusting; once this has been achieved the mind begins to drift and we might find ourselves thinking of paying bills or doing something etc...at this point we should mentally scan the body for any tiny areas of unnecessary tension or imbalance and make equally tiny adjustments to our posture to address them. You cannot be aware of this if you are distracted by music or television. The exercise is a getting-to-know-you better; so if the muscles in your lower back are tight perhaps your head is leaning forward a little, if your arms are aching perhaps your balance needs to move back a little - play with what works. It is the subtle qualities of Zhan Zhuang that make it valuable.

 

Finally, I would personally not practise this without a teacher. It so easy to hold tension in the body without realising it simply because you cannot see yourself. If your muscles are tense the energy cannot flow as well. The whole idea here, other than energy boost and relaxing of the mind is this...day-to-day your body is using muscles to balance itself and does so without conscious effort. So when we stand upright it is because our body is being held erect by the balancing stretching and closing of our muscles around the body. So, when we lift a cup to take a drink we actively tense a bicep but the rest of the arm responds in balance without conscious thinking. So we have two functions of the muscle; holding and performing. Zhan Zhuang focuses on the holding function and through this we notice where tension lies, where our imbalances are. When we begin to right them, we also correct them for day-to-day movement or at least become aware of them. Over time, if we ignore these imbalances they become greater problems as to create balance the body is holding some muscles constantly tight and they never release properly unless we alter position. So a teacher will spot if your arms are too close to your body or too far away, whether your side-side and front-to-back posture holds tension. If you aren't aware of this and no one is there to tell you, you may in fact be harming yourself because you are not correcting the imbalances.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Heath

[ChiDragon]

1) Standing in a single posture tires the muscles - they want to move and relax but you are not allowing them to as a consequence the more tired they become the more oxygen is directed from the brain to those muscles so they have more energy to cope with the demands put on them. As pretty much all the muscles are in a state of tension the whole body gets a workout without moving. So the rush of energy comes 'after' the muscles have tired. Therefore unless you have stood long enough for the muscles to begin trembling or shaking you won't feel that energy buzz afterwards. I would say that this takes 15-20 minutes for most people.

The phrase in red need to be looked into more closely, please.......

 

Are you saying that the oxygen is coming directly from the brain or it was meant something else....???

 

 

Hint: How do the muscle and brain cells get their oxygen.....???

 

Edited May 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Mudfoot]

If you want to enhance a more general flow of qi (for health), most standing postures will do. And many books teaches the basic alignments for standing. And for this general flow (better than not doing it) music or TV is ok, as is the principle of more time in standing.

But if you have a specific goal with the training it is useful to understand what the specific hand/armpositions do to the qi. Also, having the intention and awareness in the exercise from the beginning might actually cut some corners in the long run.

Starting with the hands low is often considered a good idea, the higher handpositions being added at a later stage.

Adding breathing and micromovements (call that nei gung if you like) will definetly enhance your work.

For someone with interests in the IMA, standing is an exellent way to practice peng, an, and the rest of them, as well as building the ability to take a beating . The later one never worked for me though!

 

Personally, I am on the side of focusing more on the standing the first years, than focus more on the dynamic exercises. That only mirrors the style I practice, rather than being a "truth".

[林愛偉]

Did Zhan Zhuang today outside for the first time. Did not realize how much fear I have in myself when I'm outside. I closed my eyes and stood in my stance and immediately, my mind was like oh no? Someone could murder you. A dog could buy you.

 

Everytime, I heard a noise. I opened my eyes to look to see if someone was next to me.

A lot of this is paranoia that I see carries over into my life as soon as I leave the house. It shows up greatly when you're involved in a conversation or about to start one. Your mind goes oh they don't want to listen to that or nah, you're (enter flaw here ), they won't like you.

 

Funny how these types of meditation can open up a new world to you.

 

This is called investigating the mind, and putting down false thinking. If you continue the practice, it becomes the standing practice of investigating the mind while focused on a single thought. Chan? haha Yes. We have Standing practices in Chan cultivation. Funny how things are not as different as they were taught to be believed.

 

When I was younger, I would watch Barney while doing Zhan Zhuang. I think I did it 3 times, and stopped after I started seeing purple dinosaurs running across my bedroom screaming how much they love me...

Edited May 14, 2013 by 林愛偉

[Wayfarer]

The phrase in red need to be looked into more closely, please.......

Are you saying that the oxygen is coming directly from the brain or it was meant something else....???

Hint: How do the muscle and brain cells get their oxygen.....???

 

By sending blood which carries oxygen.

[Maddie]

I did 15 min of ZZ before breakfast this morning and was amazed at how much energy it gave me!

 

*edit: After breakfast I did another 20 min and at that point had to stop cause I started feeling weird. One thing I've noticed that it does not matter lately what type of meditation I do sitting or standing after a while it feels like my ears clog up.

Edited May 14, 2013 by dmattwads

[ChiDragon]

By sending blood which carries oxygen.

It is from the heart and artery, but not from the brain. Is that what you meant.....???

[ChiDragon]

I did 15 min of ZZ before breakfast this morning and was amazed at how much energy it gave me!

 

*edit: After breakfast I did another 20 min and at that point had to stop cause I started feeling weird. One thing I've noticed that it does not matter lately what type of meditation I do sitting or standing after a while it feels like my ears clog up.

 

It seems as there is an imbalance of pressure in the air passage of your hearing system.

[Maddie]

 

It seems as there is an imbalance of pressure in the air passage of your hearing system.

yes well that part I gathered, but I'm not sure what caused it.

[ChiDragon]

Do you know how to apply pressure to your ear drums internally...??? If you do, you should be able to feel the pressure and hear some sound. This feature can be used to equalize the pressure to avoid or cancel out the external loud noise.

Edited May 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

any balance issues? common CN shared. do more kd healing sound. face palms at kidneys and when they've had enough, rotate the hands forward facing each other and reach them into treehug - kan/li exercise

[Maddie]

any balance issues? common CN shared. do more kd healing sound. face palms at kidneys and when they've had enough, rotate the hands forward facing each other and reach them into treehug - kan/li exercise

Hmm nice, makes sense. I had just mentioned in another post how my kidneys seemed very empty in meditation, so yea good way to connect the dots

Edited May 14, 2013 by dmattwads

[joeblast]

cool, go check my pps for some of the yongquan breathing stuff there too!

[Horus]

I've been doing the very beginnings of zhan zhuang (according to Stand Still be Fit on youtube and The Way of Energy) for about 6 weeks. According to Lam Kam Chuen, it's ok to listen to music or a tv or radio program while practicing.

 

I'm wondering what those of you who've practiced this (or even another relevant qigong method) have to say about this. Is it a distraction? A useful tool to get the time-keeper mind to shut up and just let the whole thing unfold? I think it's helping me get past some really early hurdles like "4 minutes in and I hate this" when I'm plugging along on my audio German lesson or listening to music that I know will end at the right time. I don't have to fight anything it seems. But I wonder if it short-circuits my ability to also pay attention to what's going on in the body. Any drawbacks to this?

 

Thanks!

Do what ever works for you. Try it all, see how it is different with all things that you do and you'll then know what works best. And you'll develop your own idea of what working best is, what feeling it generates.

Don't be bothered by the mind/pain complex - challenge it - walk into it more - make it hurt more, and you will increase you willpower.

I find, having experimented in the above manner, that doing it in nature is best. But, ultimately - your mind willsettle over time, so just stand like a tree/stake.

[Wayfarer]

It is from the heart and artery, but not from the brain. Is that what you meant.....???

 

No but I know what you mean. I'm no doctor but this is my understanding...when the muscles suffer from fatigue a number of things happen; blood temperature increases which can impact on the brain's ability to maintain its temperature and it needs to do something about that and also signals go to the brain to alert it of those tired muscles so it responds by trying to keep those muscles active, or doing what you are trying to get them to do - pumping iron, running or in this case holding a position. So blood flow is increased / more directed to those areas that are in demand and therefore they receive more oxygen. The oxygen combined with glucose creates energy and that energy is needed for the muscles to maintain their performance.

 

So...if you stand long enough in Zhan Zhuang there will come a point when your muscles fatigue, if you don't move them they begin to shake or spasm as they do not have the energy (the watts) to maintain the position. The brain recognises that more energy is required but even so, you fight through the fatigue but the brain cannot do any more to overcome the tiredness and eventually your head will become hot - because the temperature of the blood entering the brain is too hot - when this happens the brain loses its ability to function effectively and the whole body becomes fatigued and you are forced to stop so the blood can cool down and the brain returns to normal efficiency.

 

So in our practice we try to get to the point where the muscles first experience fatigue, through trembling, shaking and then we stop shortly after knowing that blood flow has been increased to those areas and we get the boost of energy. I expect, though I don't know without looking that some chemical is used in the brain to stimulate this flow - similar to the buzz we get after hard exercise - I think these are endorphins released by the pituitary but it has been a long time since I did my anatamy and physiology course

 

Hope this helps and I'd be interested in other theories of course.

[ChiDragon]

 

No but I know what you mean. I'm no doctor but this is my understanding...when the muscles suffer from fatigue a number of things happen; 1. blood temperature increases which can impact on the brain's ability to maintain its temperature and it needs to do something about that and also signals go to the brain to alert it of those tired muscles so it responds by trying to keep those muscles active, or

 

2. doing what you are trying to get them to do - pumping iron, running or in this case holding a position. So blood flow is increased / more directed to those areas that are in demand and therefore they receive more oxygen.

 

3. The oxygen combined with glucose creates energy and that energy is needed for the muscles to maintain their performance.

Hope this helps and I'd be interested in other theories of course.

 

I'm no doctor neither. Besides, it is not only the doctors are the ones who know the common knowledge about physiology. It is all in the books and on the internet.

 

Based on some scientific facts which leads me to disagree with items #1 and 2. The blood temperature does not increase by itself due to muscle fatigue. The blood only collects the heat energy from the body cells during cell respiration or metabolism and distributed throughout the body. Muscle fatigue is different from having a fever. High fever will have an adverse effect on the function of the brain but not when the muscles are fatigue. Muscle fatigue was due to the lack of oxygen which not allow the glucose to create energy as you have indicated in item #3.

 

We have body cells allover the body; and the blood is constantly circulating to provide oxygen for them. Even the blood can provide more oxygen to the body cells, at a point, the rate of oxygen consumption can be faster then what has been provide. It will happen as you had indicated in item #2 in the cases of pumping iron and running. However, the rate of oxygen consumption in Zhan Zhuang is slower than pumping iron or running.

 

Item #3 is the key to open the veil about muscle fatigue. During Zhan Zhuang, let's say, the legs were bent at 30 degree which cause muscle contraction. Indeed, muscle contraction require energy. The energy is from the glucose and oxygen as you had indicted in item #3. What that leads to is what happens if the oxygen was ran out...??? Well, the glucose will become lactic acid or lactate which cause muscle pain and fatigue. In order to keep the glucose from turning into lactate, a constant supply of oxygen is needed. The supply of oxygen was from breathing efficiently. What is the most efficient way of breathing...??? It is known as Chi Kung, the ultimate method of breathing...!!!

 

For beginners, the muscle may not have the muscle tone which also may cause fatigue. The muscles were also very painful due the stress that was applied to the legs muscle. Eventually, the problems with muscle pain and fatigue will go away when the muscle tone was built up from the practice diligently.

 

In conclusion, Zhan Zhuang standing with the legs bent at 30 degree which cause muscle contraction. Muscle contraction requires the energy to be created by combining the glucose with oxygen. In order to prevent the legs muscles from fatigue, a constant supply of oxygen is required. The oxygen was obtained from breathing. With a proper breathing method, a maximum amount of oxygen can be provided for the body cells to function to their peak performance.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Mal]

I'm not a doctor either so here is a journal article about the current understanding of the mechanics of lactate acid and fatigue

 

http://www.jappl.org/content/100/4/1410.full

[ChiDragon]

Thank you. The final conclusion says all.....

PS.....
At the "lactate threshold", that is when the mitochondria start to not manufacturing ATP due to the lack of oxygen or hypoxia. Hence, the muscles are no longer have the energy for contraction and become fatigue. During Zhan Zhuang, under this condition, the leg muscles become weaken and can no longer support the body weight due to the collapse of the energy level.

Edited May 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Wayfarer]

Thank you. The final conclusion says all.....

 

PS.....

At the "lactate threshold", that is when the mitochondria start to not manufacturing ATP due to the lack of oxygen or hypoxia. Hence, the muscles are no longer have the energy for contraction and become fatigue. During Zhan Zhuang, under this condition, the leg muscles become weaken and can no longer support the body weight due to the collapse of the energy level.

 

I must say that such threads are a credit to Tao Bums as I have certainly learnt some things I didn't know about the body - so thank you. There was something I wanted to say about the use of stabilising muscles and moving muscles but I can't quite remember it - may be someone here will fill in the gaps...I think a key element of ZZ is that we become aware of how we are using 'moving' muscles to stabilise the body when in fact we shouldn't and therefore we 'use' more energy than we should for the practice. When, through small tweaks in posture we find we can relax the muscles used for motion and rely on the stabilising muscles we discover less effort is required due to our relying on the unconscious mind, to maintain posture (as it does while standing or sitting). So therefore particularly if we work with a good instructor we can spot where we are using strength rather than position to hold the posture.

 

So I am now a little confused as to why Lam Kam would ask us to bend our legs beyond their normal capacity to naturally sustain a position when we are trying to work with stabilising muscles. Though I suspect that in tiring those muscles beyond their current endurance but trying to relax them using our conscious thinking we improve the flow of energy. I can only say that my experience is that when I tire, I begin to shake, although parts such as my hands and forearms may become numb, soon after I get hotter and my heart rate can increase and / or my breath becomes more rapid while trying to get more oxygen in the body - but then it settles down again.

 

A pretty amazing technique whatever we might feel about it!

[ChiDragon]

There was something I wanted to say about the use of stabilising muscles and moving muscles but I can't quite remember it - may be someone here will fill in the gaps...I think a key element of ZZ is that we become aware of how we are using 'moving' muscles to stabilise the body when in fact we shouldn't and therefore we 'use' more energy than we should for the practice. When, through small tweaks in posture we find we can relax the muscles used for motion and rely on the stabilising muscles we discover less effort is required due to our relying on the unconscious mind, to maintain posture (as it does while standing or sitting). So therefore particularly if we work with a good instructor we can spot where we are using strength rather than position to hold the posture.

 

So I am now a little confused as to why Lam Kam would ask us to bend our legs beyond their normal capacity to naturally sustain a position when we are trying to work with stabilising muscles. Though I suspect that in tiring those muscles beyond their current endurance but trying to relax them using our conscious thinking we improve the flow of energy. I can only say that my experience is that when I tire, I begin to shake, although parts such as my hands and forearms may become numb, soon after I get hotter and my heart rate can increase and / or my breath becomes more rapid while trying to get more oxygen in the body - but then it settles down again.

 

I do not find any significant meaning in the term "stablizing muscles". However, I go along with using the muscles to stabilize the body. From the former paragraph, I do detect a little misunderstand on the purpose of ZZ which creates the confusion as mentioned in the latter.

 

Anyways, the purpose of ZZ was not the stabilize the muscles rather to strengthen the leg muscles. However, strengthening the leg muscles will help to stabilize the body. After a long practice of ZZ, the muscle tone builds up in the legs which made the legs are much stronger than before. Indeed, it allows to use less effort to stabilize the body. Please keep in mind, through small tweaks in posture does not relax the muscles used for motion. At anytime, small tweaks will put the muscles under slightly contraction. Thus the muscles are not in a relax position.

 

In the second paragraph, you are definitely have the right to be confused. The reason you were tired is because the body cells had used up all the oxygen in the muscles. A good indication of that was your body gets hotter and your hands and forearms became numb. Again, all these was due to the lack of oxygen. Hence, you breathe faster and the heart pumps faster for more oxygen until all the oxygen debts were paid back to the muscles. As you said, it settles down again.

Edited May 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Wayfarer]

Just for the record in case it is throwing confusion into the mix...by 'stabilizing muscles' I mean the use of muscles in an unconscious way to keep the body upright or in balance. So if we are stood waiting for a bus we may only become aware of our posture if we have pain/tension or begin to tire - we are not thinking "okay I'm going to stand so lets tense the lower back the abs etc to create balance" it happens without our thinking. And we don't need to alter them unless we feel tension or pain - which usually means we are using muscles normally associated with motion to keep the body in balance as the stabilising muscles do not tire in the same way as those used for motion - therefore they are being 'held' rather than allowed to expand and contract as is their primary function - to move us. So for instance, it could be argued that muscles used to operate the heart are similar to those that function to keep us upright - they do not tire and they are not under our conscious control.