McKenna, the I Ching, and 2012

[Yen Hui]

01) 2012 A.D.

http://www.halexandria.org/dward415.htm

 

02) All About 2012

http://www.greatdreams.com/2012.htm

 

03) Theories on the I Ching

http://fusionanomaly.net/iching.html

 

04) 2012: The Year of the Dragon

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/2012.html

 

05) Maya Cosmogenesis 2012

http://fusionanomaly.net/mayacosmogenesis2012.html

 

06) 2012: Dire Gnosis

http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/

 

07) Beyond 2012

http://www.vitalsignspublishing.co.uk/book...xtract2012.html

 

08) 2012 Agenda

http://www.spiritualgenome.com/2012_agenda.htm

 

10) Terrence McKenna

http://www.mayantimes.com/terence.htm

 

11) Fractal Time and the I Ching

http://survive2012.com/why_2012_fractal.php

 

12) 2012: Is this Timewave Zero? End of the World?

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/converg.html

 

13) Guilty of Apocalypse: The Case Against 2012

http://www.apocalypse2012.com/book/

[Yen Hui]

hi there All ~

 

Never before have a I consulted the Oracle about 2012, until now! I used coins, but since I could'nt find 3

pennies, I used 3 nickels. The question I specifically asked it was: "Will this world, in which I presently live,

come to an end in December 2012?" The Oracle revealed Hexagram 5. Lines 1 and 6 were moving lines, and

produced Hexagram 57. Line 6 of Hexagram 57 has troubled me a little, I must confess. I'll be contemplating

this Oracle for some time! If any of you, with experience in consulting the Oracle, have asked it this question

before, I would appreciate your reflections. Btw, I used the Wilhelm/Baynes version for this consultation.

 

In the spirit of the Tao,

Yen Hui

[thelerner]

How much faith do we want to put into randomly tossed coins? If you ask that end of the world question and threw the coins every day, you would end up with every possible combination, and they'd form along a bell curve. Its the way of flipped coins.

 

For me the I ching, tarot and similar divinations have value as a Rorschach test, the vagueness allows me to open up intuition along the lines they point to. Its not them, its me. Or is it us?

 

 

Michael

[mYTHmAKER]

I have a theory re the Mayan Calendar.

They ran out of rock. A hard drive can hold just so much info.

It is the end of a cycle so it was a good place to stop.

You can take my word the world will not end in 2012,

if it does you can sue me.

The world will surely be different than it is now

but everything is different today than it was a hundred years ago

and today is different from yesterday.

By the time you read this many things will have changed.

Does it really matter what the IChing says re the world ending

que sera - work on your self so you will be ready for death.

It might not wait for 2012.

[Smile]

Not soon enough...

[sunshine]

Yen Hui

 

I do not know your background so take what I say with a grain of salt:

I assume in order to use the I Ching properly one already has to be a kind of accomplished practitioner... otherwise ones lower-level-thoughts very likely interfere with the process and do not give one the answer to ones question... and I honestly doubt that the I Ching gives one a true answer to such a question anyway... if it could it would probably tell you: "drink some tea"... hmmmmmmm...

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[Taomeow]

How much faith do we want to put into randomly tossed coins? If you ask that end of the world question and threw the coins every day, you would end up with every possible combination, and they'd form along a bell curve. Its the way of flipped coins.

 

For me the I ching, tarot and similar divinations have value as a Rorschach test, the vagueness allows me to open up intuition along the lines they point to. Its not them, its me. Or is it us?

Michael

 

I soooo disagree.

 

The I Ching (together with its more concise sources, Hetu and Luoshu) is ALL of taoism -- not "some" of it but the bees' knees of it, the very core -- the rest is fringes, icing on the cake (and often way too cloying at that... too many cooks have thrown their sugar and honey and, lately, corn syrup and Aspartame on top of it... The cake itself is, however, perfect. To get a taste of real taoism, and of the truth that gave birth to it, one has to scrape off the mountain of icing -- by the way, all those ideas about how we are smarter than King Wen because we know about Rorschach and he didn't are part of that deceptively sweet confectioner's powder everything we've been fed since childhood has been sprinkled with -- yeah, shake it off, and try the cake... I kid you not.)

 

Have you tried reading the Ta Chuan (The Great Treatise On The Changes)? I think it can help a modern person firmly indoctrinated into despising divination to get a glimpse of how and why the I Ching divination is every bit as scientific as quantum mechanics, genetics, and other stochastic (probabilistic) sciences of today. It has about as much relevance to one's psychology, incidentally, as the latter. I.e. "some," inevitably, but that's really not where it's at...

 

To me (the daughter of a physicist and an engineer, a lineage of five Ph.D.s and six generations of atheists, who was taught to read, at age three, from a book titled Principles of Thermodynamics), the I Ching is the single most scientific book ever written on earth... and the only way to use it is the way it was intended to be used by its authors: for divination.

 

Of course I wouldn't ask her about "the end of the world" or some such. I have a relationship with this book, that of a teacher-disciple, and she takes me seriously enough after a few years of building and nurturing this relationship on my part that she doesn't let me ask trivial, frivolous, superfluous, or silly questions. If I try, she snaps at me. If I persist, I get "I told you once, I told you twice, how many times do you want to hear it -- don't ask this stupid question again, I mean it!"

Edited February 12, 2007 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

On the face of it, I think your playing games with yourself but because you're smart, its a smart game. Your relationship is not with It, but with your own intuition, which is no slouch.

 

Its been a while since I've looked at a book or tossed coins. Tell you what, I'll take a look at the Ta Chuan and see where it takes me.

 

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Taomeow & Lerner,

 

I appreciate both of your approaches to the Yi Jing. It is the very core of Taoist thought and practice. And, it is a tool for anyone to delve into their own psychology.

 

If it is a toy, then it is a toy that has been offered from very deep and meaningful sources of our inter-connectedness with all that is alive and changing. I have consulted the book of changes for four decades and have never NOT been granted insights into the situations I am delving into.

 

That one can ask the same question everyday and get a different answer may be so, but I have found that there are groupings of the same hexagram in my life that could not be random, concidering the odds involved. And the very nature of changing situations and insight into situations offers many changes for possible responses to have meaning as well.

 

I have experienced a hell of a lot of resistance to the Book of Changes. It scares most people. The connections become too real for many to handle. And once they are made a relationship forms that has responsibilities as any relationship has.

 

I do not hold the book to be infallable, as some Christians hold the Bible to be, there are a few instances where I see a lack of scientific plausability etc...Nonetheless, there is no Taoist practice without the study of the Book of Changes. It holds and offers the key to inter-action with The Tao that is only abbreviated by our own lack of courage and open-minded questing.

 

The divination is a secondary attribute, the connectivity to the larger, even cosmic, universe is what is tendered and may be found useful if one holds the mindful respect that should be offered to any teacher. In this case the teacher is yourself opening up to new levels of understanding found along The Way, as it were...

 

I have also thought of it as a sort of organic matrix for the eternal componant of my being to build an inner structure of comportment and awarness in order to be the best I can be for furthering the world around me, to be in MY Tao so to speak...A constructive part of the whole web and flux of life...

 

As Taomeow has already shared, it is a relationship to cultivate. If you are grasping and manipulative that is what will be reflected. As Ken Kesey said once - it is a kick in the third eye...

 

It scared me at first too, because I was forced to look at the inner me that was questing, and was thus catipulted into the larger universe as an intrinsic part of thet Oneness that I have a responsibility to, and that goes far beyond any work on myself.

 

What is offered is only bound by whatever constraints my own mind puts on these inter-actions. It is only an open door. Maybe one of perception that leads to a whole cosmology of possibility and growth.

 

For me there is no understanding of Taoism without a deep contemplation of this timeless tome.

[thelerner]

Thanks Wayfarer I was hoping you'd join in. To me it boils down to is there a supernatural agent responding to the roll of the coins, or is it the genius of the I Ching system to act as a mirror to get me to solve my own problem? I.E. the tarot cards are accurrate (and useful) because I see the cards meaning and mythology through the prism of my own mind.

 

As a modern rationalist its harder to get my mind around the supernatural agent involved. Its easier to see my own minds interpretations. If prescient forces are involved its feels more likely then they are my own unconscious gifts beyond the usual senses.

 

Historically how much credit belongs to the system and how much to the user?

 

 

Michael

[thaddeus]

...

[Taomeow]

Michael,

 

cool, look at the Ta Chuan, and then in case you develop a taste for its simple but fun math, take it to the modern territory and check out what Donald Yan, Ph.D., Professor of Computational Chemistry at Cornell U, has figured out about it in his "DNA and the I Ching." (Here's a taste of the cake: presented as a sequence of codons, which is one way to arrange the "digrams" of the hexagrams flowing naturally from the fact that both the I Ching and the genetic code use binary mathematics, chapter 12, Standstill, corresponds in every detail to a genetic "stop dividing" message to a live cell encoded in your very own DNA. How's that for "your own intuition?" You didn't perchance encode your own DNA "intuitively," did you? Well, neither did I! )

 

Wayfarer,

 

I agree with most of your take except that divinational function of the I Ching is "secondary." Nope. It is primary.

 

All of taoism is a stochastic science and its crucial concept is "luck." When Einstein said that "God doesn't play dice," he made as big a mistake as did Descartes when he announced his dualistic manifesto, "Cogito ergo sum." The science of the six-thousand-years-older-than-ours civilization of Southeast Asia ain't no poor misguided superstitious relative to our "bigger better Western Science." When Francis Bacon said (and he did) that all of our Western civilization owes its very existence to discoveries made in ancient China, he knew what he was talking about.

 

Taoist sciences ain't no bunch of silly superstitions ISO a "bigger-better-WHITER" explanation, and not an "inferior" way to approach reality. They are different from our approach (that of ascribing to reality itself as much action as we can think up in our human heads, and no more -- and most of what our human heads are capable of thinking up based on our daily experience with reality fits in a TV guide) --

they are different in that they work by emulating, in the greatest possible detail, the way reality itself works --

 

and reality plays dice all the time, one has to be "kicked in the third eye" (thanks for the cool quote, Wayfarer) very hard, as we all are, to fail to notice. What are the odds you will guess correctly whether I'm drinking tea or coffee right now? Depends on who you know.

 

One thing to keep in mind when consulting the I Ching. It won't always bother answering the question you've asked, but it will ALWAYS answer the question of the moment, the real question you SHOULD have asked. And this one is the only part that depends on your intuition, insights into your own consciousness, and so on. If you have these pinned down, you will ask THE question at THE moment. If you don't, you will ask something esle, something off the top of your head, off the top of your consciousness if/when its deeper parts are hidden from you. But the I Ching will still answer the question from those deeper parts -- not just of your consciousness but of reality itself. And it IS infallible, as infallible as any probabilistic method can possibly be. If it appears it isn't, it means you didn't pinpoint the real question when asking. Here's an example from my experience:

 

A young guy, a rock musician, was in a band that was just beginning to get its first serious gigs and becoming visible, and they decided they needed to change the name of the band, because the name they had at the time was from way back in high school and rather unimaginative. I said, what if changing the name interferes with your artistic luck? Ask the I Ching, he suggested, knowing I do that. So I did. The question I asked was, "should such-and-such band change its name?" The line I got in response read, "although there is illness, one doesn't die." I didn't get it, and tried again. The line I got was, "for three years, one won't come out of the house." The boy shrugged, I shrugged, well, perhaps the I Ching is not infallible after all, this is gibberish.

 

A month later, a member of the band was diagnosed with cancer. The band fell apart. The battle with illness was life-and-death, took three years, and was successful.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

There was a library having a book sale today. I went there hoping the universe would point me to an old (or new) copy of I Ching or Ta Chuan. No luck, I did pick up Mutant Woman Down Under and a grocery bag full of books for $2. Somewhere I have an interesting copy of the I ching as individual cards.

 

Wayfarer and Taomeow, you both see the I Ching as an integral tool of Taoism. From Wayfarer I get the understanding of it as an interactive Dao De Ching, from Taomeow I picture it as a tool, a focal lense..onto the universal map..?

 

 

Michael

[Taomeow]

Too bad you didn't get it from the library... maybe it's not the right time? My own copy of Wilhelm/Baynes came to me from the library but mysteriously. I borrowed it. I then called to renew it. The library said, we have no record of you having this book. You don't have it, so you can't renew it. OK, I said, I have it, and I am willing to return it, but not right now, I do want to keep it a bit longer, can you put it on my record and renew it? No can do, they said. Records are records, ours say you don't have it, it means you don't have it, there's no way around it, who do we trust, you or our new and improved computerized system? Have a good day. OK, I said to myself, I'll ask the book. I threw the coins. I Ching, should I return you to the library? Yes, she said, return. I threw the coins again: When? In ten years, she said. Well... ...I'm gonna.

 

from Taomeow I picture it as a tool, a focal lense..onto the universal map..?

Michael

 

The map in this case IS the territory. This transpires (for me it did, at least) when you study ganying, the main engine of tao. The closest Western idea to ganying of taoist sciences is that of a fractal/holgraphic universe, but where we have an "idea" to toy with, "they" have a system of equasions whose sum is reality itself -- not an "image" of reality, not a "symbol" (the way our equasions are symbolic) but reality built into images, inseparable from them, non-symbolic. The I Ching shows you a picture that is not a picture... it just shows you one side to look from, a flat 2D side of a multidimentional nD reality behind it. "In the heaven of Indra, there is a string of pearls, so arranged that each one of them reflects each and every other one of them." The I Ching is this string of pearls, and there's exactly 64 of them. Tao is the thread that connects them... in a loop... Have you ever seen the original I Ching, the Circular one?..

Edited February 13, 2007 by Taomeow

[Japhy Ryder]

I have a theory re the Mayan Calendar.

They ran out of rock. A hard drive can hold just so much info.

It is the end of a cycle so it was a good place to stop.

 

This theory resonates with me. The computer metaphor recalls the apocalyptic hand-wringing that happened before Y2K. The world won't end (and didn't end) just because an accepted method of binary coding would no longer work and had to be changed. Change isn't death. Death precludes conscious creation of change.

 

As taomeow's story of the rock musician affirms, when consulting the I Ching (or any other oracle, including Mick Jagger):

 

You can't always get what you want.

You can't always get what you want.

You can't always get what you want.

But if you try some time, you'll find you get what you need.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi all... where to begin

 

JR-that is the 2nd Jagger quote for me today...#1 was American girls want everything in the world that you can possibly imagine...

 

Taomeow- I meant that divination is secondary as in first one ought to get comfortible with the methodology and form the "cosmic linkage" that begins the actually journey. Without a sense of "getting it", there would be a lack of purpose in the activity for many...As you so aptly discribed, a relationship to this portal seems to be a very useful componant of the activity. That linkage also leads my awareness to a place that is untangable as the Tao itself. My awareness of my place in the web of life where I could relate to the Book of Changes, came before I could figure out what the Yi Jing was offering.

 

a quick aside - a dear friend just sent me a very Taoist yet Christian-based prayer -it is attributed to St. Teresa-

 

St. Theresa's Prayer:

May today there be peace within.

May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be.

May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith.

 

May you use those gifts that you have received,

and pass on the love that has been given to you.

May you be content knowing you are a child of God.

Let this presence settle into your bones, and allow your soul the

freedom to sing, dance, praise and love.

It is there for each and every one of us.

 

Michael- The scientific methodology is a profoundly useful tool for the furthering of almost all the trusted knowledge worth noting. That there is still a hell of a lot of mystery that has not been explained to any rational mind is also ok. As the prayer states - it is the infinite possibilities that are born of faith.

 

What is the Tao? Is it beyond comprehension, as are several other BIG questions?... Among them is how do things like synchronocity take form. If in a Buddhist's mind the butterfly's wing creates the hurricane thousands of miles away; my rational mind says no way. Still my imaginative, creative sense of the possible can make a connection and understand the "reasoning" there in...

 

This is close to how I feel/think about the Yi Jing also -and it is very apt for me to have received that prayer today- More synchronocity at work my friends! So, let it flow! Stay mindful and loving.

 

By the way I threw the Yi Jing for the 2012 thing and it blew my mind -

From 52 -the Mountain or Keeping Still to 51 Thunder or the Arousing.

 

It is very rare to get such divergent hexagrams in one sitting. I have not figured out what to make of this yet. But I guess there will be a big freaking change of some sort. And I doubt that it will be hard to notice!

 

I am not sure what my role is with the Yi Jing but I am bound to it in a very profound way at this time and I'm hoping I can make myself useful following my path...

Namaste-Pat

Edited February 13, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Japhy Ryder]

 

a quick aside - a dear friend just sent me a very Taoist yet Christian-based prayer -it is attributed to St. Teresa-

 

St. Theresa's Prayer:

May today there be peace within.

May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be.

May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith.

 

May you use those gifts that you have received,

and pass on the love that has been given to you.

May you be content knowing you are a child of God.

Let this presence settle into your bones, and allow your soul the

freedom to sing, dance, praise and love.

It is there for each and every one of us.

 

Michael- The scientific methodology is a profoundly useful tool for the furthering of almost all the trusted knowledge worth noting. That there is still a hell of a lot of mystery that has not been explained to any rational mind is also ok. As the prayer states - it is the infinite possibilities that are born of faith.

 

 

What a beautiful prayer! Thanks for offering it. Your observations about the utility of scientific methodologies reminds me of an incredibly cool introductory biology course I took in college. Several times during the semester, students asked well-formed questions during lectures and the professor answered "We don't know." I found it incredibly exciting that undergrads with rudimentary knowledge could frame questions "the experts" hadn't answered yet.

 

Isn't over ninety percent of matter composed of stuff science hasn't been able to identify yet?

[Yen Hui]

 

How much faith do we want to put into randomly tossed coins? If you ask that end of the world question and

threw the coins every day, you would end up with every possible combination, and they'd form along a bell

curve. Its the way of flipped coins.

 

For me the I ching, tarot and similar divinations have value as a Rorschach test, the vagueness allows me to

open up intuition along the lines they point to. Its not them, its me. Or is it us?

 

Hello Everyone!

 

Thank you all for your participation and for offering much food for thought! Just after starting this thread, I

went on a 3 day family road-trip out of town, and arrived back at dinner time yesterday. I spent most of the

evening contemplating the discussion and I wish I had the time to reply to everything. However, perhaps I

can address most of it over a period of a few days, time and opportunity permitting. I'll try my best, but can't

make any promises, as I already have another thread on hold that I've been itching to get back to as well!

 

Michael! ~

 

You sound like a Pragmatist, for which reason I highly recommend you check out Carl Jung's Foreword to

Wilhelm's I Ching. There's an online copy @ http://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm ~ There's also a copy

of the Ta Chuan (or Great Treatise) online @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/chou_i.html ~ I

highly recommend you read them both very carefully, more than once!

 

You will notice that the Ta Chuan (i.e. Treatise) forms part of Book Two (of Three) in Wilhelm's I Ching. All of

Books One and Two are available at the same website which hosts The Treatise. I've been unable to locate

Book Three online, which contains the remainder of the Confucian Appendixes (Wings).

 

However, if you will give Jung's Foreword a close reading, I think you'll discover that it addresses several of

your concerns and objections. Here are a few excerpts from it, posted for your convenience:-

 

QUOTES FROM JUNG'S FOREWORD:-

 

01 - "He (R. Wilhelm) had over a period of many years put the peculiar

technique of the Oracle into practice . His grasp of the living meaning

of the text gives his version of the I Ching a depth of perspective that

an exclusively academic knowledge of Chinese philosophy could never

provide." (p. xxi-xxii)

 

02 - "For more than thirty years I have interested myself in this oracle

technique, or method of exploring the unconscious, for it has seemed

to me of uncommon significance." (p. xxii)

 

03 - "The method of the I Ching does indeed take into account the

hidden individual quality in things and men, and in one's own unconscious

self." (p. xxviii)

 

04 - "If the I Ching is not accepted by the conscious, at least the

unconscious meets it halfway, and the I Ching is more closely

connected with the unconscious than with the rational attitude of

consciousness." (p. xxxii)

 

05 - It is "a psychological procedure that has been carried out time and

again throughout the millennia of Chinese civilization, representing to a

Confucius or a Lao-tse both a supreme expression of spiritual authority

and a philosophical enigma." (p. xxvi)

 

06 - "It is by no means easy to feel one's way into such a remote and

mysterious mentality as that underlying the I Ching. One cannot easily

disregard such great minds as Confucius and Lao-tse, if one is at all

able to appreciate the quality of the thoughts they represent; much less

can one overlook the fact that the I Ching was their main source of

inspiration." (p. xxxv)

 

07 - "According to the old tradition, it is 'spiritual agencies' acting in a

mysterious way, that make the yarrow stalks give a meaningful answer.

These powers form, as it were, the living soul of the Book. As the latter

is thus a sort of animated being, the tradition assumes that one can put

questions to the I Ching and expect to receive intelligent answers." (p.

xxv-xxvi)

 

08 - "It (i.e. the Oracle) conceives of itself as a cult utensil serving to

provide spiritual nourishment for the unconscious elements or forces

('spiritual agencies') that have been projected as gods - in other words,

to give these forces the attention they need in order to play their part in

the life of the individual. Indeed, this is the original meaning of the word

religio - a careful observation and taking account of (from relegere) the

numinous." (p. xxviii)

 

09 - "The I Ching insists upon self-knowledge throughout. The method

by which this is to be achieved is open to every kind of misuse, and is

therefore not for the frivolous-minded and immature; nor is it for

intellectualists and rationalists. It is appropriate only for thoughtful and

reflective people who like to think about what they do and what happens

to them - a predilection not to be confused with the morbid brooding of

the hypochondriac." (p. xxxiii)

 

10 - "My position in these matters is pragmatic, and the great disciplines

that have taught me the practical usefulness of this viewpoint are

psychotherapy and medical psychology." (p. xxxiv)

 

11 - "Even to the most biased eye it is obvious that this book represents

one long admonition to careful scrutiny of one's own character, attitude,

and motives." (p. xxxiv)

 

12 - "If by means of this demonstration I have succeeded in elucidating

the psychological phenomenology of the I Ching, I shall have carried

out my purpose. As to the thousands of questions, doubts, and

criticisms that this singular book stirs up - I cannot answer these.

The I Ching does not offer itself with proofs and results; it does not

vaunt itself, nor is it easy to approach. Like a part of nature, it waits until

it is discovered. It offers neither facts nor power, but for lovers of self-

knowledge, of wisdom - if there be such - it seems to be the right book."

(p. xxxix)

 

A BRIEF OBSERVATION ON THE ABOVE QUOTES:-

 

From the above pasSages, we can see that Jung's approach to the I Ching was singularly pragmatic in nature.

Apart from his theory of 'synchronicity', he did not allow himself to get bogged down in the deeper questions

concerning the underlying mysteries. He distinguishes his own contemporary approach from the "old tradition",

explaining that the "spiritual agencies" (i.e. gods and demons) merely represent for him "the unconscious

elements" or projections from within our own mind. These are also described by him as 'universal archetypes'

which concept factors significantly into The Treatise itself, in terms of the "the archetypal images that underlie

the phenomenal world." (cf. @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/cho...an_pt1_ch8.html ); a theory that

is immediately broached in Hexagram One, according to the following terms:-

 

13 - "The specific meanings of the four attributes became the subject of speculation at an early date. The

Chinese word here rendered by 'sublime' means literally 'head,' 'origin,' 'great.' This is why Confucius says in

explaining it: 'Great indeed is the generating power of the Creative; all beings owe their beginning to it. This

power permeates all heaven.' For this attribute inheres in the other three as well.

 

"The beginning of all things lies still in the beyond in the form of ideas that have yet to become real. But the

Creative furthermore has power to lend form to these archetypes of ideas. This is indicated in the word success,

and the process is represented by an image from nature: 'The clouds pass and the rain does its work, and all

individual beings flow into their forms.' " (cf. @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h1.html )

 

In this vein (or connection), The Great Treatise states the following:-

 

14 - "We are shown here how the individual can attain mastery over fate by means of the Book of Changes.

Its principles contain the categories of all that is--literally, the molds and the scope of all transformations.

These categories are in the mind of man; everything, all that happens and everything that undergoes

transformation, must obey the laws prescribed by the mind of man. Not until these categories become

operative do things become things." ( @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/cho...an_pt1_ch4.html )

 

Regarding "the psychological basis of the Oracle", The Treatise offers the following explanation:-

 

15 - "The person consulting the oracle formulates his problem precisely in words and regardless of whether

it concerns something distant or near, secret or profound, he receives--as though it were AN ECHO--the

appropriate oracle, which enables him to know the future. This rests on the assumption that the conscious and

supraconscious enter into relationship. The conscious process stops with the formulation of the question. The

unconscious process begins with the division of the yarrow stalks, and when we compare the result of this

division with the text of the book, we obtain the oracle." (cf. @

http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/cho...n_pt1_ch10.html )

 

And in the following passage, The Treatise comments on the I Ching's "theory of the power of the unconscious":-

 

16 - "In this explanation of the nine in the fourth place in Hexagram 31, Hsien, INFLUENCE (Bk. III), a theory

of the power of the unconscious is given. Conscious influences are always merely limited ones, because they

are brought about by intention. Nature knows no intentions; this is why everything in nature is so great. It is

owing to the underlying unity of nature that all it's thousand ways lead to a goal so perfect that is seems to

have been planned beforehand down to the last detail.

 

"Then, in connection with the course of the day and the year, we are shown how past and future flow into

each other, how contraction and expansion are the two movements through which the past prepares the future

and the future unfolds the past.

 

"In the two succeeding sections the same thought is applied to man who, through supreme concentration,

so intensifies and strengthens his inner being that mysterious autonomous currents of power emanate from

him: thus the effects he creates proceed from his unconscious and mysteriously affect the unconscious in

others, attaining such breadth and depth of influence that they transcend the individual sphere and enter the

realm of cosmic phenomena." (cf. @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/cho...an_pt2_ch5.html )

 

Returning to Jung's Foreword, his view of the I Ching was contemporary in almost every respect. As indicated,

he utilized it in his medical practise for 30 years, with phenomenal success! The Foreword, provides us with a

wonderful working example of his method, and recommends that we approach the Oracle with an open mind.

It should go without saying that the closed mind will get nowhere with it; obviously! If approached with humility

and sincerity of mind, the insightful wisdom of the Oracle is sure to amaze you! Jung addresses the issue of

"unintelligently" repeating the same question, which is also implicitly addressed throughout the I Ching; as, for

example, in the few passages quoted below for your convenience:-

 

17 - "The Creative is decided and therefore shows to men the easy. The Receptive is yielding and therefore

shows to men the simple. The(se) two fundamental principles move according to the requirements of the time,

so that they are continuously undergoing change. But the nature of their movements is uniform and consistent.

The Creative is always strong, decided, real, hence it meets with no difficulties. It always remains true to itself;

hence its effortlessness. Difficulties always indicate vacillation and lack of clarity. In the same way it is the

nature of the Receptive to be consistently yielding, to follow the line of least resistance, and therefore to be

simple. Complications arise only from an inner conflict of motives." ( @

http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/cho...an_pt2_ch1.html )

 

18 - "Every mood of the heart influences us to movement. What the heart desires, the thighs run after without

a moment's hesitation; they hold to the heart, which they follow. In the life of man, however, acting on the

spur of every caprice is wrong and if continued leads to humiliation." (cf. Line 3 @

http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h31.html )

 

19 - "If a man remains at the mercy of moods of hope or fear aroused by the outer world, he loses his inner

consistency of character. Such inconsistency invariably leads to distressing experiences. These humiliations

often come from an unforeseen quarter. Such experiences are not merely effects produced by the external

world, but logical consequences evoked by his own nature." (cf. Line 3 @

http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h32.html )

 

20 - "The words of a man who plans a revolt are confused. The words of a man who entertains doubt in his

inmost heart are ramified. The words of men of good fortune are few. Excited men use many words.

Slanderers of good men are roundabout in their words. The words of a man who has lost his standpoint are

twisted." (@ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/cho...n_pt2_ch12.html )

 

21 - "The mountain rises up under heaven, but owing to its nature it finally comes to a stop. Heaven on the

other hand retreats upward before it into the distance and remains out of reach. This symbolizes the behavior

of the superior man toward a climbing inferior; he retreats into his own thoughts as the inferior man comes

forward. He does not hate him, for hatred is a form of subjective involvement by which we are bound to the

hated object. The superior man shows strength (heaven) in that he brings the inferior man to a standstill

(mountain) by his dignified reserve." (cf. The Image @

http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h33.html )

 

22 - "A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from

an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If

mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher (i.e. Oracle). He

does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by

questions implying doubt." (cf. The Judgment @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h4.html )

 

"Entangled folly bring humiliation. For youthful folly it is the most hopeless thing to entangle itself in empty

imaginings. The more obstinately it clings to such unreal fantasies, the more certainly will humiliation overtake

it. Often the teacher, when confronted with such entangled folly, has no other course but to leave the fool to

himself for a time, not sparing him the humiliation that results. This is frequently the only means of rescue."

(cf. Line 4 @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h4.html )

 

Furthermore, it is clearly stated in The Treatise that the ancient sages, predating Confucius, never did

anything of significance without first consulting the Divine Oracle; and that it was only by the guidance

and insight of the Oracle that they were able to purify their hearts and completely realize their innate

human capacities! Now, the few passages, quoted immediately above, express, in essence, the manner

in which the Oracle offers its wise and deeply insightful guidance. In closing, I must reiterate that all

"complications arise only from an inner conflict of motives."

 

In the spirit of Tao,

Yen Hui

Edited February 14, 2007 by Yen Hui

[soaring crane]

I'm really enjoying this place! It's wonderful to see that there are even some Yijing scholars here. Wow.

 

I spent a number of years discovering that I'm just too stupid for the depths of the Yijing but I think I learned enough not ask huge questions involving destroying the whole world.

 

An example of a more concise, useful question might be, "Am I spiritually prepared to face the end of the world if it comes in 2112?" or something even narrower along those more personal lines. But just the basic premise, that the world may explode in 5 years, is the kind of thing that will get you an unserious, maybe misleading or even sarcastic answer.

 

The answers are in your subconscious (that's my amateur conclusion) and your subconscious probably communicates with everyone else's subconscious and with the subconsciousness of the whole history of the human race on some level, but most of all, it communicates with you.

 

That you drew a misfortunate line really doesn't confirm that the world will end in 2112, don't worry. The Yijing tends to give unreliable answers to unreasonable questions. The misfortune could also imply that you didn't get the answer you were hoping for.

 

Btw, anyone using the Yijing for divination might want to get a biotensor to draw the lines with. I've had much better results that way than with the coins or even milfoil stalks.

 

Also, I'm going to be collecting milfoil in the late spring as gifts for some friends. We have some very nice crops of it here. Hopefully, the lack of any winter this year won't affect it negatively. If anyone would like to have a set, let me know.

Edited February 14, 2007 by soaring crane

[Yen Hui]

 

By the way I threw the Yi Jing for the 2012 thing and it blew my mind -

From 52 -the Mountain or Keeping Still to 51 Thunder or the Arousing.

 

It is very rare to get such divergent hexagrams in one sitting. I have not figured out what to make of this yet.

But I guess there will be a big freaking change of some sort. And I doubt that it will be hard to notice!

 

I am not sure what my role is with the Yi Jing but I am bound to it in a very profound way at this time and I'm

hoping I can make myself useful following my path... Namaste-Pat

 

Hi there Pat! ~

 

Thanks for sharing your Oracle with us, and wow! It's a powerful one, to be sure, and resonates deeply within

me! As indicated above, I originally consulted the Wilhelm/Baynes edition. Wilhelm was profoundly influenced

by the work of Cheng Yi, a widely influential Song Dynasty Neo-Confucian sage. Cleary's translation of the I

Ching entitled, The Tao of Organization, is based on Cheng Yi's version, and incorporates much of it within

the text. Shambhala later published a pocket-sized version of it, which I possess; so I consulted it next, after

Wilhelm's, and this is what it says:-

 

Hex. 5 - Overall Judgment. Waiting is necessary; when danger lies ahead, that is. When strength is robust and

not trapped, its justice is not thwarted and its duty is not frustrated. When waiting is truthful, it is gloriously

successful; be truthfully stedfast, and you will be lucky; this means you will take your place in the order of

Nature by way of correct balance. That it is profitable to cross great rivers means that progressive action

will accomplish something. (p. 11)

 

And as you may recall, Lines 1 and 6 were in transition, yielding Hexagram 57:-

 

Hex. 57 - Overall Judgment. Double conformity is used to express repetition of directions. Strength conforms to

balance and correctness, so what is willed is carried out in action. The weak all go along with the strong, so

this is why the small succeed, profiting by having somewhere to go, and profiting from seeing great people.

(p. 127-128)

 

Since Lines 1 and 6 of Hex. 5 are becoming Lines 1 and 6 of Hex. 57, I've included both sets below:-

 

Hex. 5, Line 1 - "Waiting on the outskirts, it is worthwhile to try to be constant, so that you may be faultless.

Image. Waiting on the outskirts means not having gotten into difficult and problematic activities. It is worthwhile

to try to be constant, so that you may be faultless, ... assuming that you have not already become abnormal."

(p. 12)

 

Hex. 57, Line 1 - "When going forward and backward, it is helpful to be as stedfast as a soldier. Image. Going

forward and backward means one's purpose is wavering. It is helpful to be as stedfast as a soldier, meaning

that one's purpose is settled." (p. 128)

 

Hex. 5, Line 6 - "Going into a cave, there are three unhurried guests coming. Respect them and you will

eventually have good luck. Image. When three unhurried guests come, be respectful to them, and you will

be lucky in the end. Even if you do not attain status or position, you will not have lost much." (p. 13)

 

Hex. 57, Line 6 - "When conformity is more lowly than normal, you lose your resources and tools, so it is

unlucky even if you are stedfast. Image. If conformity is more lowly than normal, one is helpless in a position

of leadership; the loss of one's resources and tools is indeed bad luck." (p. 129) The Wilhelm version

of Hex. 57-Line 6 says: "Penetration under the bed. He loses his property and his axe. Perseverance

brings misfortune."

 

 

I spent a number of years discovering that I'm just too stupid for the depths of the Yijing but I think I learned

enough not ask huge questions involving destroying the whole world.

 

An example of a more concise, useful question might be, "Am I spiritually prepared to face the end of the

world if it comes in 2112?" or something even narrower along those more personal lines. But just the basic

premise, that the world may explode in 5 years, is the kind of thing that will get you an unserious, maybe

misleading or even sarcastic answer.

 

The answers are in your subconscious (that's my amateur conclusion) and your subconscious probably

communicates with everyone else's subconscious and with the subconsciousness of the whole history of the

human race on some level, but most of all, it communicates with you.

 

That you drew a misfortunate line really doesn't confirm that the world will end in 2112, don't worry. The Yijing

tends to give unreliable answers to unreasonable questions. The misfortune could also imply that you didn't get

the answer you were hoping for.

 

Hi there soaring crane ~

 

Thanks for the input. Just to clarify things a little, though, regarding my question to the Oracle, I did not ask It

if the world would explode in 5 years. I asked It if "this world, in which I presently live," will "come to an end in

December 2012?" There's a big difference between the two, if you ask me. At any rate, I ask you to read the

above Oracle carefully and tell me if it strikes you as a "misleading or even sarcastic answer" to my question.

 

It starts out talking about the danger that "lies ahead" and how that if my waiting is stedfast, correct and

balanced, that I will take my place "in the order of Nature." In Hex. 5-Line 1, it talks about waiting on the

outskirts for this impending danger, and in Hex. 5-Line 6, it talks about going into a cave. In Hex. 57-Line 6,

it talks about possibly losing my resources and tools. The way it seems to read is that mankind, in general,

perhaps myself included, will survive, but be reduced to "the hunter and gatherer" status of primitive man.

Now, does that necessarily strike you as "misleading or even sarcastic"?

 

In the spirit of Tao,

Yen Hui

Edited February 15, 2007 by Yen Hui

[mYTHmAKER]

I asked It if "this world, in which I presently live," will "come to an end in

December 2012?"

 

What is this world in which you presently live.

Could this be your personal world and those in your world.

Not the world of the rest of us.

[Yen Hui]

What is this world in which you presently live.

Could this be your personal world and those in your world.

Not the world of the rest of us.

 

That is a good question, but the short answer to it is no. The world I was asking about included all nations and

peoples. I was thinking about a possible world cataclysm that could reduce mankind to huner-gatherers again;

perhaps even bring global extinction, but I specified nothing regarding the manner in which might happen.

 

On the other hand, I was also open to the possibility "the end" might actually mean the dawn of a truly "new"

age of world-wide enlightenment. However, the Oracle I received seems to indicate I will lose something, but

not much, if I play my cards right.

 

If I screw-up, I stand to lose everything, including my property, resources, and tools; though I escape with my

life. Tools seems to refer a domestic lifestyle. Dwelling in a cave with no tools seems to imply a type of hunter-

gatherer existence.

[soaring crane]

 

Hi there soaring crane ~

 

Thanks for the input. Just to clarify things a little, though, regarding my question to the Oracle, I did not ask It

if the world would explode in 5 years. I asked It if "this world, in which I presently live," will "come to an end in

December 2012?" There's a big difference between the two, if you ask me.

 

Hi Yen,

 

Hmmm... I don't really see where your phrasing of the question changes the spirit of the query. Your question is still based on the catastrophic predictions of the Mayan calendar. Would you have asked the same thing regarding, say, 2009? 2525? No. You picked 2012 very specifically for a reason.

 

My thing about the world exploding wasn't meant literally, it more like hyperbole, I guess. Seemed good at the time but now it looks pretty silly.

 

At any rate, I ask you to read the

above Oracle carefully and tell me if it strikes you as a "misleading or even sarcastic answer" to my question.

 

It starts out talking about the danger that "lies ahead" and how that if my waiting is stedfast, correct and

balanced, that I will take my place "in the order of Nature." In Hex. 5-Line 1, it talks about waiting on the

outskirts for this impending danger, and in Hex. 5-Line 6, it talks about going into a cave. In Hex. 57-Line 6,

it talks about possibly losing my resources and tools. The way it seems to read is that mankind, in general,

perhaps myself included, will survive, but be reduced to "the hunter and gatherer" status of primitive man.

Now, does that necessarily strike you as "misleading or even sarcastic"?

 

In the spirit of Tao,

Yen Hui

 

 

#5 can simply be interpreted as a the begining of a new phase for you. Losing the axe means having trouble making decisions and coming to conclusions. The axe splits the stump into two easily identifiable pieces. Going into the cave means taking time out to consider things from a solitary perspective, without a lot of distractions. Natural order doesn't imply a return to the stone age.

 

Yeah... it sounds to me like the Yijing may have ben having fun with you. But you have to judge the judgement, of course. And I'm very, very much a layperson.

 

There's lot's of "danger" in the Yijing but it's not always referring to, well, danger. It's like the death card in Tarot, people see the scary picture and get worried something terrible will happen but it's all about ending and starting new phases.

 

I admit to using the "Complete Idiot's Guide to the I Ching" and, although the title is horrible, the content is pretty good. Also R.L. Wing's I Ching Workbook which is alright but a little too subjective at times. I also have Wilhelm in German, W/B, Cleary and my best scholarly translation is from Richard John Lynn. The last one is always the first one I consult and return to after reading the others. I don't find anything in any of them to suport the notion that your life as you know it will indeed end in 2012, physically or metaphorically.

[Yen Hui]

 

I also have Wilhelm in German, W/B, Cleary and my best scholarly translation is from Richard John Lynn. The

last one is always the first one I consult and return to after reading the others.

 

Hi there soaring ~

 

I use to own a copy of Lynn's translation of Wang Pi's I Ching, until one day I sold my entire Library. It's a

good version, for sure, and Wilhelm refers to it in the Intro to his own I Ching; and although it was not the

version upon which he based his own, he does speak very highly of it, as though it exerted a considerable

influence over him.

 

 

I don't find anything in any of them to suport the notion that your life as you know it will indeed end in 2012,

physically or metaphorically.

 

Well, I suppose there's some comfort in that; thanks! I'm curious, though, if this means you have

examined the theory of the McKenna brothers, and judge it to be inconclusive at best? It is not based

on 'divination', or any kind of interpretation of the Lines, but upon numerical data and hard calculations!

 

 

 

Hex. 5, Line 1 - "Waiting on the outskirts, it is worthwhile to try to be constant, so that you may be faultless.

Image. Waiting on the outskirts means not having gotten into difficult and problematic activities. It is worthwhile

to try to be constant, so that you may be faultless, ... assuming that you have not already become abnormal."

(p. 12)

 

Hex. 57, Line 1 - "When going forward and backward, it is helpful to be as stedfast as a soldier. Image. Going

forward and backward means one's purpose is wavering. It is helpful to be as stedfast as a soldier, meaning

that one's purpose is settled." (p. 128)

 

Regarding these Lines, perhaps I should fill you all in a little more concerning my recent history

leading up to my asking the Oracle this question. I have been feeling for some time now that a

possible natural disaster of international (if not Global) proportions might be "just around the

corner", as they say, and whether or not I should start preparing for it.

 

Consequently, I have been contemplating deeply, for quite a while, moving to "the outskirts" in

waiting for it. I presently live in a small city, located 1 hour north of Toronto, Canada; and last

Thursday and Friday, I spent the whole day thinking about this move. There is a house with 8

acres of land, located 1.25 hours north of me, presently on the market for under $190,000.00;

and I was stewing for 2 days about whether or not I should make a move on it.

 

That property is about 2.25 hours north of Toronto, and very remote. It's a beautiful property,

but located quite away from most of the employment in this Province. This period of deep and

prolonged contemplation finally culminated in my asking the Oracle this question. Now, look at

the above lines in the light of what I've just shared. Hex.5-Line 1 says, "Waiting on the outskirts,

it is worthwhile to try to be constant." This Line is changing to Hex. 57-Line1, which says, "Be

as stedfast as a soldier" when "one's purpose is wavering."

 

Now, these words immediately give rise in my mind to my purchase of a property so far away

from the main centers of business and commerce, that it might cause me to ultimately waver in

my decision to keep it. If I have to drive 1-2 hours just to get to work, and then another 1-2 in

order to get home, will I have the resolve to hang-in there as long as it takes? Or will I cave in

and sell it before the awaited time? This is just one question that immediately comes to mind. It

is still for sale, and I'm supposed to get a tour of the inside of the house today.

[soaring crane]

Hi again

 

no... I hadn't read all the McKenna links. But I've gone through them a little now and, well, I really can't say I find it convincing. Your story is interesting for sure. Will you take it?

 

A lot have people a sense of pending doom, but a lot of people always have. I know one guy that's getting his things in order. He's amassing debt and looking for property. His theory, I don't know where he got it from, is that the earth's polarity is going to reverse. Apparently, the African continent is supposed to be one of the few safe areas left to live after 2012.

 

I'm really not into this at all, though, and probably shouldn't have butted into your thread.