ChiDragon Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Ref: 19 heng(恒) and 6 chang(常) in the two pages Tao Te Ching reflects both the MWD-A and MWD-B Time Table In the earliest codex of the Tao Te Ching as mentioned above, the character 恒(heng) was changed to 常(chang) due the to taboo of using the name of a ruler in any document during the Han Dynasty(漢朝). There are six(6) characters of 常(chang) were originally used in four(4) chapters of the Tao Te Ching. The Chapters are 16, 51, 52, and 55. It seems that 常(chang) was, only, used as an adverb as a time element, in Line 8 in Chapter 51. All the rest of the Chapters, 16, 52, and 55, were used as a noun. Based on that, the character 恒(heng) was used in the same manner as 常(chang) for the closest replacement. Chapter 51, 常(chang) as an adverb.... 常(chang): always, forever, Example: 6. 道之尊, 7. 德之貴, 8. 夫莫之命而常自然。 6. Tao was dignified, 7. And Te was honored, 8. Because they do not interfere but always being natural. Edited March 24, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 21, 2013 The definitions for 常(chang) as a noun are as follow....Chapter 16, 52, and 55:常(chang): a normal routine.Break time, TBC..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 21, 2013 Break time, TBC..... Yes, time for a break. I spent the past 45 minutes looking at "heng". I'm still not happy with what I have found. Too bad for me that I allowed the curiosity to inspire me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 22, 2013 Chapter 161. 致虛極2. 守靜篤。3. 萬物並作,4. 吾以觀復。5. 夫物芸芸6. 各復歸其根。7. 歸根曰靜,8. 是曰復命;9. 復命曰常,10. 知常曰明。11. 不知常,12. 妄作凶。13. 知常容,14. 容乃公,15. 公乃全,16. 全乃天,17. 天乃道,18. 道乃久,19. 沒身不殆。Chapter 161. Reaching vacuousness to its extremity,2. Maintaining stillness ultimately.3. All things are being vitalized,4. I observed that they are reciprocating.5. Therefore, all things are flourishing,6. Each returns to its root,7. Returns to its root means stillness.8. Stillness means returns to its essential.9. Returns to essential is called the basic routine.10. Knowing the routine is called comprehension.11. Not knowing the basic routine,12. Will act rashly become chaotic.13. Knowing the basic routine is encompassing.14. Encompassing will serve with justice.15. Justice will be impartial.16. Impartial will be natural.17. Natural will be in accord with Tao.18. Then, Tao will be eternal,19. And the eternal Tao will be exempted from all danger.In this Chapter, the 常, chang, is used after a verb(call, know), thus it becomes a noun.常(chang) was understood as a compound term.....常規: frequent routine; normal routine; common routineIn the Chinese language, it is customary to use first character to represent the thought of the compound term. However, the meaning has to be determined from context for the correct term. Another words, it is equivalent to the abbreviation in English. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 22, 2013 Lots of Changs there but no Hengs. even though we talk about eternal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 22, 2013 Lots of Changs there but no Hengs. even though we talk about eternal. No "恒, hengs" yet. This is one of the chapters that "常, chang" was used originally. I need to go over the similar chapters to show how "chang" can be used to substitute for "heng". Eventually, "chang" will be used to have the meaning of "eternal". There are quite of few chapters will be involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) Chapter 5215.無遺身殃。16.是為習常。15. To keep one out of trouble,16. It was considered to be following the normal routine.In this chapter, 常(chang) is after a verb(習, practice), thus "chang" is used as a noun. Edited March 22, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 22, 2013 ... the normal routine. Yes, I can deal with "normal routine". There are lots of them in my life. They actually help in making my life easier to live day by day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) Chapter 5511.知和曰常。12.知常曰明。11. Knowing it's in harmony was said to be in the normal development.12. Knowing it's normal development was said to be profound.In this chapter, 常(chang) was used as a noun. Edited March 23, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 23, 2013 (edited) Summary for the usage of " 常, chang".....Chapters 16 and 52 are used as a noun: 常(chang): routineChapter 55 is used as a noun: 常(chang): developmental routineChapter 51 is used as an adverb:常(chang): always, forever恆 or 恒(heng): eternal; constant; permanent, long lasting; It seems that the character 常(chang), which has the similar meaning as in Chapter 51, is the closest meaning for 恒(heng). Hence, we may come to the conclusion that the ancient scholars were forced to use 常(chang) for the substitution for 恒(heng). However, we'll do some contextual tests to see if that was a valid conclusion. Edited March 23, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 23, 2013 Hence, we may come to the conclusion that the ancient scholars were forced to use 常(chang) for the substitution for 恒(heng). However, we'll do some contextual tests to see if that was a valid conclusion. I've not established a conclusion yet. Yes, as you proceed from here I am sure we will see the difference between Chang and Heng and thereby the difference in translations of the TTC post MWD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) Let's use Chapter 1 to look do a contextual test for 恆 or 恒(heng).We have established that Chapter 51 is used as an adverb: 常(chang). It is the closest meaning for 恒(heng). However, 恒(heng) is an adverb and 常(chang) is an adjective.Chapter 51 is used as an adverb:常(chang) adj: everlasting; long lasting; constant; permanent; eternal恒(heng) adv : always; forever; evermore; eternally.恒(heng) is a character to express time.The MWD Version of Chapter One used 恒(heng):MWD: 1. 道可道,非恒道。Possible translations:1. Tao that can be spoken is not the always Tao.2. Tao that can be spoken is not the forever Tao.3. Tao that can be spoken is not the evermore Tao.4. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternally Tao.The Received Version of Chapter One used 常(chang):RecV: 1. 道可道,非常道。Possible translation:1. Tao that can be spoken is not the everlasting Tao.2. Tao that can be spoken is not the long lasting Tao.3. Tao that can be spoken is not the constant Tao.4. Tao that can be spoken is not the permanent Tao.5. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.As I working on the definitions, I have just noticed that the Received Version did not restore, 常(chang), back to the original character 恒(heng) which was used in the MWD versions. Therefore, I have to come to a conclusion that, 恒(heng) was use as an adjective to begin with; ever though 恒(heng) is an adverb. It seems to me the modern native scholars had discovered that; it's why the character 恒(heng) was not restored to its original place. Since the classic does not have any grammars, then the two characters are interchangeable. Especially, there was no other choice but to use 常(chang) for "heng". Hence, in the translation above, line 5 is the best translation.5. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.IMO This line is implicating that Lao Tze had an assumption that Tao is eternal to begin with.In modern Chinese, people are using the character 常(chang) to mean as "always"; and 恒(heng) as "eternal" as I had been saying in the above posts. Indeed, it is bit confusing. I guess people do make change in the thoughts as the time moves. As a matter of fact, from the local Cantonese radio station, I have noticed that the pronunciation of some characters have been changed.5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.Lines 5 1nd 6 has a good indication that 常(chang) was used to mean as "always" Edited March 24, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 24, 2013 Okay. I see no problem with what you presented here. For lines 5 and 6 were you using the Recieved Version or the MWD? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 24, 2013 Okay. I see no problem with what you presented here. For lines 5 and 6 were you using the Recieved Version or the MWD? I was using the Received Version. FYI I had indicated that, at the beginning of the OP, only Chapters 16, 51, 52, and 55 were originally used the "chang" character. Now I have a better understanding of these characters. "Heng" is like something that will last forever. And "chang" is like an event will repeatedly occur forever. However, if I want finalize Chapter One, I would use both characters in Chapter One in this manner. I would use "heng(恒)" for Lines 1 and 2; and "chang(常)" for Lines 5 and 6. Lines 5 and 6 do have an indication that Tao has two changing phases; at one time Tao is invisible and the other is visible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 24, 2013 Thanks. That is what I thought after looking at Henricks' work. Lines 5 and 6 do have an indication that Tao has two changing phases; at one time Tao is invisible and the other is visible. Yea! The Mystery (Wu) and the Manifest (You). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites