shanlung Posted March 22, 2013 After my recent trip on a fruitless search for the Tao in the lake gardens, street side restaurants and mountains around Taiping, I needed some rest at home. My fingers did some walking and I stumbled onto the old Usenet Alt.Philosophy.Taoism where I had roamed about as the Idiotic Taoist. I came across a very long piece that I wrote in about 1996. Which might still be fascinating reading for those interested in the Path of Tao even if we still have not even come close to agreeing what is the Tao about and what is Taoism or even what a Taoist is. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ============================================================== This was posted into apt around end Oct 1996.Instead of fiddling around with my floppies, I use Dejanews andmanaged to locate these letters once more. Jester ahem! As I have said, I have been in this place before and notjust for a day. ======================================================Deng Ming Dao's Chronicles have sections which are so similar to otherreally noted Taoist writers. It is unfortunate that my library is not with me right now and Icannot check and quote the other corresponding parts from them. However, I do have a couple of John Blofeld books (first written byhim in 1960 or earlier) with me. There are two letters following this posting. The first letter contains a section from Mr Blofeld book. The next letter contains excerpts from Deng Chronicles which lookedgrotesquely similar to Mr Blofeld. That next letter also containsportions from Deng so strange that you best read them for yourself. This is not the first time that these letters were posted here.However, entities unknown to me have gone and deleted them soon aftertheir posting. Warmest regards The Idiotic Taoist ========================================================= This was originally posted on the Tao-List sometime back in Mar 96. ********************************************************************************* I just finished reading 'Chronicles of TAO' by Deng Ming Dao. It was supposedly the story of Deng's Taoist master Kwan Saihung,tracing the education, martial arts and spiritual, he had in China HuaShan to the time he crossed over to America. After all those years ofreal martial arts experience, Kwan then went on to 'learn' boxingeventually taking part in the Golden Gloves. The absurdity that aftertraining in many forms of the highest martial arts he was badly beatenwhen he tried boxing for the first time even though the book went onto make Kwan the 'winner' after due training.( I remembered my boxingfor the first time with gloves when I was in the Army with my evenmore limited background in karate/kungfu withoutany trouble). Not too long into that book, it was easy enough from theinconsistencies that it was more a novel rather than a true story thatit made itself out to be. There were far too many instances of'americanised' behaviour and thinking, typical of that make belief ofDavid Carradine's Shaolin temple fantasy to make that book believable. There were certain parts which were true, but again, while 'LobsangRampa' books also did have some truth it, it sure does not make thosebooks true or that the monk 'Lobsang Rampa' truly exists in the pastnow residing as a 'spirit' in an Englishman. I guess that people being people, the only point that really mattersis the 'angle' they can get in making of money, and in this 'New Age',Taoism is as good as any an angle to make money. What bothers me is that in their making that kind of money, they hadno qualms in spinning tales that may well mislead others reallysearching for the way. Further more, tales need not be spun as the truth is often strangerthan fiction. There are also parts of Deng's Chronicles that bears very greatsimilarity to other books written by noted authors written many manyyears ago. Perhaps it may be that great minds do think alike, but on the otherhand, some authors need to be 'inspired' by other writers even to thefollowing of their mannerisms and phrasing of words. I am appending below an extract from John Blofeld's book 'Taoism, theroad to Immortality'. Mr Blofeld have spend many years in China andtravelled and stayed at many Taoist temples in the past beforeCommunism came. I rather believe in Mr Blofeld account of a Taoistrecluse rather than that of Deng Ming Dao. My apologies to those who have read Blofeld books, but this is meantfor those who have not read it yet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (In Blofeld's words) This final story of immortals is very different from the others, beingno legend but a factual account of the attainment of immortality inthe true Taoist sense of that word. I hear it years ago from a Taoistof Mount Heng and, though I cannot recall the actual examples he gaveme of the 'double talk' with which Taoists clothe their secrets, I canvouch for the closeness of my version to the original in spirit if notin detail. The recluse who relate the story, told me that he was a'third generation spiritual descendent' of the White Heron Immortal. In the reign of the Hsien Feng Emperor(1851-62), there lived on theslopes of Mount Heng a recluse known as the Narrow-Waisted_GourdImmortal, more commonly called Hulu Weng, the Gourd Ancient One, or itmay have been Hu Lao-weng which has the same meaning. Besides a fewmiddle-aged disciples, he was attended by two children who weresupposed to be boys, though some said they were his granddaughters,the offspring of a son conceived before he retured from the world ofdust. Strangers coming to pay their respects were invariablyreceived by one of these children, who had some skill indistinguishing false from real. Those whom the children reported tobe unlike followers of the Way were generally told that the Immortal,being deep in meditation, might not be able to receive them forseveral days to come. If, however, these guests persisted and askedthat lodging be provided until such a time as the Immortal found itconvenient to bestow some of his precious time on them, than coolnessvanished and they were made welcome. Perhaps their desire would befulfilled that very evening, the Immortal suddenly emerging from hisinner chamber, crying:"Well,well. How may an old and ignorant fellowserve Your Honours?' One day there arrived from the capital a scholar surnamed Pai who, atthe age of 30, was already a little stooped and short-sighted from toomuch study of the Confucian classics. He seemed at once distraughtand impatient, so it was just as well that the little girls reportedfavourably on the state of his heart and mind. Upon coming into theImmortal's presence, he was with difficulty restrained from kneelingand knocking his head on the floor as before a Confucian dignitary."I come to Your Immortality", he cried, "as a very last resort.Either you must show me the face of truth or I shall dispatch myselfhere and now to the yello springs with the help of my silken girdle.All my life I have been searching for truth, pouring over theclassics, listening to so-called sages in vain and cultivating thecompany of eminent Confucian scholars. A brilliant officalcareer lay before me until, all of a sudden, I realised that all thattalk of benevolence, filial piety and propriety is so much claptrap!What li[propriety] conveivably have to do with the Great Way? Doescultivating the Tao require that we walk or bow in this way or that?Of course not! Your Immortality must help me to make up quickly forwasting my whole life upon such nonsense!" Impressed by his sincerity, the Gourd Immortal invited his official tostay for a while and receive 'such poor teaching as an ignorant oldfellow has to give'. Pai was delighted , but the next day a horribledisappointment awaited him, for the Immortal spoke to him in termsthat seemed utterly at variance with his own conceptions of sagehoodand wisdom. This was the substance of Hulu Weng's first lesson to thebewildered scholar: "I cannot describe to you the indescribable, but I can teach youseveral by no means inconsiderable arts - invisibility, flying withoutwings, invulnerability to sword or serpent's fang - you know the kindof thing. Here, then, is your syllabus of study. Seeking the Mysterious Portal,you must first provide yourself with the wherewithal to bribe thegurads and render yourself invisible that you may slip throughunnoticed. That sort of thing is not to be mastered in a day. Nextyou will have to learn how to fly thence to the courts of heaven, makeyour way to the central chamber, surprise Lord Lao[Lao-tze] atbreakfast, snatch up his flask of golden elixir, slay those who willcome running in to rescue it, break down the walls of the sky-castleand return to earth an immortal! A man of your determination has butto follow my course of instruction to be certain of sucess." Hoping with all his heart that the Immortal was just having a littlejoke at his expense, Pai gazed at him earnestly, trying to read hisexpression. Alas, his face was calm and solemn, and his eyes shonewith an unearthly lustre that made Pai wonder if he were not dealingwith a dangerous fanatic. Had he travelled post-haste from thecapital, scarcely dismounting for weeks on end, forgetful of food andsleep, merely to be told the kind of nonsense that any child can findfor himself in the sort of books he borrows from servants withoutletting his parents know? The thought was intolerable. The next day,long before dawn, he rose and packed his few belongingsmeaning to slip away without having to make embarassing excuses. Hewas tying up his bundle when one of the little girls came in with apot of tea. Seeing how things were, she smiled and said: "Please,Uncle, do not leave us son soon. If you do, I shall get the blame fornot looking after you properly. You would not like that to happen,would you, Uncle? I know why you are angry. The Immortal saidsomething you did not like, isn't it so? Have you heard of mountain divinities pretending to be horriblere-toungued demons just to test the pilgrims' courage? You wouldn'tbe taken in would you, Uncle?" Rather than cause trouble for the friendly child, Pai decided to delayhis departure for a few days, since it would be quite impossible toadmit the true cause of his wanting to leave. Meanwhile the lessonscontinued arousing such interest that the few days became many and, inthe end, Pai never left the hermitage again, staying there in all forsome seventy or eighty years! Since a prerequisite for flying without wings is weightlessness, thefirst lessons were directed as 'trhowing things away'. Unlike manyothers, Pai had discarded greed and ambition before coming to themountain, but he still had cumbersome baggage to be disposed of -excessive ardour, for example, over-eagerness to succeed and overanxiety lest he fail. He was taught to lose all sense of hurry, tosubdue his tendecy to strain. He had to learn to let limslef to beborne along like a floating cloud on the chi of heaven.Simultaneously, he set himself to acquire the art of invisibility.For this, stillness was required and the capacity to be as unobtrusiveas a lizard on a branch, mingling with the pilgrims who came onfestival days - there, yet unnoticed. The bribe to be offered to the guardians of the Mysterious Portalturned out to be a vow that, if the golden elixir were won, Pai wouldnot depart into final bliss before founding and nursing a line ofdisciples capable of passing on the recipe for immortality to futuregenerations. As to the Portal itself, he learnt that it stands in aregion known as the Precious Square Inch lying just behind themid-point between the eyes.There came a day when he could at any timebehold the rays of heavenly light that are forever streaming throughthis gate but remain invisible until the adept has learnt how todevelop his inner seeing. Learning to fly proved the longestand most ardous task, requiring that his physical endowments - semenand subtle essence, breath and blended personal and cosmic vitality,spirit both personal and cosmic - be transmuted into a spirit-bodyable to soar, during meditation, beyond the stars. Entering thecourts of heaven meant achieving at will a state of ecstatic trance.Passing into the central chamber was the fruit of a yoga for drawingup the final product of blended essence, vitality and spirit from theregion below the heart to the ni wan cavity just below the top of theskull; snatching the golden elixir from Lord Lao meant causing theperfected elixir to descend (and reascend) the central pschic channelrunning between the pelvis and the ni wan. Slaying the guardians wasa term for countering the illusory ego's final struggles to retain therecognition hitherto given to it as an individual entity. Breaking down the walls was the supreme act, destruction of the lastbarriers between the adept's being and the Source of Being, so as toattain immortality in the true and only meaningful sense of thosewords. It signified in fact, 'return to the Source', the be all andend all of Taoist endeavour, of cultivation of the Way! The former Confucian scholar, having by devoted labour and with theunstinted help of his teacher attained to immortal state within a meredecade of his distraught arrival, was destined to make the GourdImmortal's hermitage his permanent home. Its former owner, before'soaring among the stars on the back of a dragon', confirmed Pai ashis spiritual successor. Pupils of Pai's pupils were still to be foundthere in the 1930s and it was probably their pupils who were trunedwhen the red tide reached Mount Heng around 1950! ----------------------------------------------------- Warmest regards The Idiotic Taoist ===================================================== 2nd letterContinuation of my earlier letters on this Deng's Chronicles************************************************************************* You recalled two weeks ago when I typed out the piece by John Blofeld,I said it was to cleanse my soul after reading the Chronicles of Taopurportedly the story of the Taoist Master that Deng Ming Dao claimedwas his master. I know I have hurt some of the people in this list who thought highlyof Deng when I wrote what I wrote with my 'heart-mind' and not beingvery explicit why I felt such a way. That piece by Blofeld was a 'finger pointing to the moon' as I thoughtthat it would immediatly be clear when I downloaded that work ofBlofeld. Perhaps people have not read that 'Chronicles' or have forgotten whatthey read and remembered only a warm glow when Deng's name wasmentioned. I now write with my 'logical-mind'. In case Deng whipped up anotherbook or maybe set up a 'Temple of Immortal Tao' for his master andpass the hat for donations. Deng's Chronicles, have been so full of inconsistencies in martialarts (Shaolin based martial arts taught in Wudang Mountains???)that itis really a sick joke and can be treated as a D grade pulp fictionnovel. The masters Kwan Sai Hung claimed he learned under like theTaiji MASTER Yang Chengfu died in 1936, at the time Kwan claimed hewas learning Shaolin style martial arts. Same for other MASTERS thatwere listed such as Chen Weiming, Sun Lutang Hsingyi/Pakua and ZhangZhaodong of pakua. After all those listed Inner Martial Arts mastersKwan 'trained' under (introduction page 2), the rest of the book talkson Shaolin martial arts he trained under instead. I did not even comment on the miraculous travels Kwan made even withhis uncle. In his Deng's words ---------------------------------------Chronicles page 329 He eased the tension of the two Taoists' deaths by wandering. Accompanying an uncle who was a wealthy fur trader, or going alone bybicycle, he toured Germany, France, and Eastern Europe, even thoughWorld War II was in progress. He found charm and beauty wherever hewent, and had taken sentimental likings to the Black Forest, bridgesover the Danube, the sound of Chopin. He loved to stay in alpinevillages and appreciated the hospitality that people proffererd evento strangers. Though the land had been devastated, he took it all in,and the enchantment of a foreign land was mixed with enthusiasm of hisyouth. For a time, he had even wanted to move to Europe, but his onlyfriends were members of a dying aristocracy. They could offer him nosolace. ------------------------------------------------------I am not sure fur will be traded in those part of the world during WWII. You all judge the possibility of one/two Chinese travelling merrily inGermany, France and Eastern Europe during the WW II staying in BlackForest and all that stuff above. And the second last sentence?...I checked it and typed like it is inthe book. I only can conclude that portion was 'inspired' fromsomething else he read without too much understanding. What blew my fuse is below. As written by Deng in his 'Chronicles of Tao', page 296/297. ------------------------------------------------------------------In the midafternoon, Slender Gourd took him to a shaded corner of thebroken-down, weed-invaded courtyard. "My brother and I will both teach you," he said. "I will firstoutline the method of cultivating the Way." "Let me complete what I began last night. You must seek theMysterious Portal. But it is guarded. You must have an offering tofirst bribe the guards and then the ability to be invisible so thatyou may slip through unnoticed. With these preparations, you mustthen learn to fly to heaven, surprise Lao Tzu in his chambers, snatchup the flask of golden elixir, slay the defenders, break down thepalace walls, and return to earth an immortal!" "This is like the opera 'Monkey Makes Havoc in Heaven' commentedSaihung. {Comment - that episode referred to, of the Monkey God SungWu Kung is nothing at all like what is written} "Yes, but this is no opera," said the master severely. "sit down andlisten to me. The first thing is the bribe for the guards." "What is that?" "Gold and jewels do not move the demon generals. It is the humanspirit. Your bribe is a vow that should you attain the golden elixirthat will liberate you from this earthly plane, you shall not departinto the infinite before teaching others and continuing the lineage." "I promise. Iwill do everything I can to walk the holy path," saidSaihung." Master, i will do anything to succeed." "Not so fast," cautioned Slender Gourd. "You are obviously a man ofdetermination, but you must maintain a certain perspective. For thisbrings up the question of flying. Flying means weightlessness. Suchlightness means shedding weight. Your emotional burden isovereagerness to succeed and anxiety about failing. Gain and loss arenot to be taken to heart. You must leave these attitudes behind. Doyou understand?" "Yes, Master." "Invisibility, as you said last night, signifies stillness inmediation. With it, you can slip through the Mysterious Portal. Thisgateway is in the region known as the Precious Square Inch in thecenter of the head at eyebrow level. It is through this gateway thatyou will someday glimpse the divin light that is always there. Whenyou can unify semen, breath, and spirit, you will soar to heaven -that is to say that you raise this essence to the Mysterious Portal.Snatching the golden elixir means thatyour channels are now open andthat your energy breaches the Mysterious Portal. But at that finalstage, the guardians will appear, and you will have to slay them." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forgive me for not continuing on with the rest of what Deng havewritten. I believe you all will agree that it is a very very remarkablesimilarity to that of Blofeld and his conversations with the Taoistmaster when Blofeld travelled in China in the 1930s.(If any newbiesmissed out on those letters I send 2 weeks ago, I will be happy tosend it if you drop me a line) Deng even put in that not_so_stupid sentence ' "This is like the opera'Monkey Makes Havoc in Heaven' commented Saihung.' I can only conclude that he is not satisfied with 'lifting' that part,that sentence was to innuendo that his story shared 'common origin'with that of Blofeld, in case you may happen to have read JohnBlofeld. And unless you happened to know Chinese classics well andknow that there is no such thing in the Monkey Makes Havoc that Dengelude to, Deng would have succeeded in what he set out to do, using'inspired' writings of other works to 'prop' up his story of his'master'. I have not read and have no reason to read his '365 Tao'. I know people who read it said it was good. But given his'Chronicles', I can only assume that the 'good' in the 365 Tao musthave shared remarkable similarity with other good Taoist books. Andinstead of reading about them through Deng, I rather read those booksdirectly instead. Your comments are most welcomed. Warmest regards The Idiotic Taoist ========================================== Your Idiot on the Path 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) . Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted March 22, 2013 Hey Shanlung... curious me.. you mentioned Taiping - is that Taiping, Malaysia or some other country? Taiping (Malaysia) is well known for its lake gardens too!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Friend Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted March 24, 2013 CT, If you read my earlier report on the eve of departure to Taiping, http://shanlung.livejournal.com/141112.html you will have found references to Maxwell hills which would have answered your question. I was rhetorically asking if the plagiarising of Blofeld works was ethical or not. That was not meant to be a real question. It was clear what was written by Deng was not just a fiction, that was outright fraudulent and theft. Especially if you fire up Google, you find seminars on chi kung and martial arts , and Living Taoism even, being conducted by Kwan Sai hung. No idea if what he was teaching was based on the D grade rubbish fiction that he was reading in addition to good works by Blofeld and others. I do hope folks of the Tao take pride in ethics too. And denounced in any language plagiarisation of any kind. None of those 0h! - that read better written by him If so , you must be saying Nouel Alba did a great job too! Her writings was apparently a lot better and more heart rending.BBC News - NY woman in Newtown 'charity scam'And same for those who took from church poor boxes. Maybe I am just an Idiot and do not know the other wonderful ways of the Earth and actually admired by some. What am I to say. I can only say to each their own and their own path. Please do not mind me being an .anachronism in your world. Idiotic Taoist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) Master "Kwan Sai Hung" (actually Frank Kai, born in New York) is a fictional character and Deng's book are totally made up, profusely copying existing works. Also see for instance Poul Andersen, "A Visit to Huashan" in Cahiers d'Extreme Asie 5 (1989-90): "It may be added in this connection that the book [Hedda Morrison's Hua Shan: The Taoist Sacred Mountain in West China], with its fascinating pictures of monks and landscapes, has evidently served as one of the sources for an interesting forgery concerning Huashan, namely Deng Ming-Dao's The Wandering Taoist (San Francisco, 1983). The latter publication contains the biography of one Kwan Saihung, a teacher of martial arts somewhere in the United States, who was ostensibly brought up on Huashan and there initiated into the Zhengyi Huashan sect (sic). The biography is presented as based on stories allegedly told by the master himself. Thus on p. 59 we read, as part of the hero's account of his experiences during his first ascent of Huashan: "The East Peak Monastery was plain stucco and tile and was composed of groups of four-square buildings set in quadrangles. There were also smaller huts of wood and clay. As they passed a hut set behind an iron bell topped with a stone cup that collected dew, Saihung saw a willow-thin man sunning himself on the terrace. He wore grey robes and a black hat with a jade rectangle sewn to its front. The accolytes told Saihung that he was a sorcerer." But comparison with Plate 38 in Morrison's book makes it clear beyond peradventure that the description is based upon this photograph, and not possibly on independent observation at Huashan. No doubt the picture shows the dew-collecting stone cup above the iron bell, but closer scrutiny reveals that in fact the cup is standing at some distance behind the bell. It is thus only the photographic angle that makes it possible to see "an iron bell topped with a stone cup" (in itself, of course, a rather unlikely concept). " YM Edited March 24, 2013 by YMWong 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 1, 2013 Kicking this up for new comers here Idiotic Taoist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted May 4, 2013 Master "Kwan Sai Hung" (actually Frank Kai, born in New York) is a fictional character and Deng's book are totally made up, profusely copying existing works. Also see for instance Poul Andersen, "A Visit to Huashan" in Cahiers d'Extreme Asie 5 (1989-90): "It may be added in this connection that the book [Hedda Morrison's Hua Shan: The Taoist Sacred Mountain in West China], with its fascinating pictures of monks and landscapes, has evidently served as one of the sources for an interesting forgery concerning Huashan, namely Deng Ming-Dao's The Wandering Taoist (San Francisco, 1983). The latter publication contains the biography of one Kwan Saihung, a teacher of martial arts somewhere in the United States, who was ostensibly brought up on Huashan and there initiated into the Zhengyi Huashan sect (sic). The biography is presented as based on stories allegedly told by the master himself. Thus on p. 59 we read, as part of the hero's account of his experiences during his first ascent of Huashan: "The East Peak Monastery was plain stucco and tile and was composed of groups of four-square buildings set in quadrangles. There were also smaller huts of wood and clay. As they passed a hut set behind an iron bell topped with a stone cup that collected dew, Saihung saw a willow-thin man sunning himself on the terrace. He wore grey robes and a black hat with a jade rectangle sewn to its front. The accolytes told Saihung that he was a sorcerer." But comparison with Plate 38 in Morrison's book makes it clear beyond peradventure that the description is based upon this photograph, and not possibly on independent observation at Huashan. No doubt the picture shows the dew-collecting stone cup above the iron bell, but closer scrutiny reveals that in fact the cup is standing at some distance behind the bell. It is thus only the photographic angle that makes it possible to see "an iron bell topped with a stone cup" (in itself, of course, a rather unlikely concept). " YM 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted May 5, 2013 So, was Dante a fraud when he described his adventures in hell? Was Cyrano de Bergerac a fraud when he published his account of his travels to the Moon, including the means of propelling himself there and the states and empires established there? Was Prosper Merimee, better known as the creator of Carmen, a fraud when he made up gathering Western Slavic folklore and published his own tales as the original lore? Was Samuel Clemens a fraud writing as Mark Twain? Was Charles Dodgson a fraud writing as Lewis Carroll? Was Li Er a fraud writing as Laozi?.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 6, 2013 So, was Dante a fraud when he described his adventures in hell? Was Cyrano de Bergerac a fraud when he published his account of his travels to the Moon, including the means of propelling himself there and the states and empires established there? Was Prosper Merimee, better known as the creator of Carmen, a fraud when he made up gathering Western Slavic folklore and published his own tales as the original lore? Was Samuel Clemens a fraud writing as Mark Twain? Was Charles Dodgson a fraud writing as Lewis Carroll? Was Li Er a fraud writing as Laozi?.. Did Dante took the writings of others and presented that as his adventures in hell? Did Cyrano took the writings of others in his accounts of travels to the Moon etc etc ? Did Merimee took the writings of others .. hmmmm even so, he, Andersen and Aesop and others made it clear they were collecting folk tales handed down. Did Mark Twain took the writings of others and presented that as his own? Did Lewis Carroll took the writings of others and presented that as his own? Did Lance Armstrong never take performance enhancing drugs? If you felt Deng is your hero in plagiarising Blofeld, do not let me stop you. I am certainly not the policeman of Tao. And the Tao do not need me or any other people in policing the Tao. Go build your altar to that fraud Deng. Deng even appear in Facebook to give pointers on altars. I only wonder where he plagiarise that from? From Blofeld or from D grade pulp fiction? Or just crap he conjured up for laughs at the fools who decide to follow him? Maybe you might ask him which D grade pulp fiction he stole from as I never read those kind of crap. So after this will you go and fight for Lance Armstrong next as a real honest to goodness genuine sportsman? Do not forget to give your donation to Nouel Alba . I am just an Idiot who do not know the better ways such as yours. Idiotic Taoist. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted May 6, 2013 A bit too much unwarranted inference. I am a comparative linguistics major. I had to study "literary mystifications" for term papers. I was reminded of that period many moons ago by the discussion. Please do not appoint "heroes" for me on my behalf just because I see facets of an issue that you may not be looking at. Oh, and I have had my taoist altar for years, don't need to build one to a writer's specs, I have taoist teachers. Thank you for your understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 6, 2013 Nouel Alba had the decency to apologise and taken down her begging page for donations. Deng Ming Dao on the other hand, go on collecting royalties based on what he plagiarised or lifted from D grade pulp fiction mixed with a load of crap. Kwan Sai Hung go on as a fictional fraud pretended to teach the Tao and martial arts based on the fiction he and Deng coined up together while laughing on the way to their bank. I never felt that those kind of scums will have people jumping to defend them. Truth is of no value at all. Cheats and frauds the vogue thingy nowadays. Taoistic Idiot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted May 6, 2013 Didn't notice any jumping on my part. What I did notice was that Deng's book got me interested in taoism many years ago when I didn't know what that was. Where I grew up most people still don't. He may be laughing on the way to the bank for all I know (this sort of thing seldom makes one stinking rich though), but the way you react to opinions not even in disagreement with yours but offering a somewhat different perspective does make me laugh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 7, 2013 Laugh as you wish. Come on! No need to pussy foot here with me. Tell all loud and clear that you think Deng Ming Dao is not a fraud and plagiariser lifting works from Blofeld and others and from D grade pulp fiction mixed with his own crap.G Go on and promote the seminars by Deng and Kwang Sai Hung. and fill their hats with $$$ when they asked for $$$$ for their temples. I know it must be very amusing to you to make the innuendoes that Dante was a fraud and plagiariser, same as Deng Ming Dao That Cyrano also another fraud and plagiariser same as Deng Ming Dao that Merimee another fraud and plagiariser same as Deng Ming Dao Mark Twain and Dodgson another plagiariser and fraud the same as Deng Ming Dao So I am supposed to sit on my hands while Deng strut about and their minions want to wave palm leaves and shout hosannas to what he plagiarised? Is Deng the Taoist teacher you talked about? My turn to laugh. ROTFLMAO Taoistic Idiot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted May 7, 2013 heh, ever heard of the term "baiting?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 7, 2013 heh, ever heard of the term "baiting?" Could be. I have no qualms at meeting baiters, regardless of what they major in and what term papers that they studied, can that be reason enough to drag geniune word class authors into the gutter where Deng Ming Dao wallow in? To cover them with the same mud that Deng coated himself in? Fair to those other authors? Idiotic Taoist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted May 7, 2013 You have a vivid imagination, my friend. I was referring to the time-honored genre of literary mystification, hoping to discuss its interesting and noteworthy points of distinction... e.g. some researchers and critics assert that even the use of a pseudonym constitutes a literary mystification, then of course all those thousands of books written in the traditional style of the author publishing a manuscript that was left by a purported late friend or ancestor, or found buried amidst some ancient ruins, or translated from some other language, etc.. I've read hundreds of books of this nature, so I thought it may be fun to determine when, how and why the genre might offend instead of being seen as a legitimate continuation of a very well-established literary tradition. Perhaps when the written material appears so realistic that people "fall for it?.." But should we hold it against a creator if his creations turn out convincing enough to be mistaken for reality?.. That sort of thing. That's what I thought we'd be talking about when I posted my questions. You, alas, chose to make a scene instead (the genre you resorted to for the purpose is known as "ad hominem," or put in more modern terms, "flaming"). Um... Shrug... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) A piece of s* is a piece of s*. A pat of cowdung is a pat of cowdung. Deng Ming Dao is a piece of s* and a pat of cowdung combined and fermented together. Despite hocus pocus of trying to make Deng smell clean, Deng remains a piece of s* and a pat of cowdung. Edited December 23, 2013 by shanlung Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newTaoist Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) I understand your opinion, but don't you think your language and attacks are not very Daoist? I think you need to deal with your anger, just my opinion. Normally, I enjoy your posts and find them very educational, but this is too much. Edited May 8, 2013 by newTaoist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 8, 2013 I understand your opinion, but don't you think your language and attacks are not very Daoist? I think you need to deal with your anger, just my opinion. Normally, I enjoy your posts and find them very educational, but this is too much. Is Deng Ming Dao plagiarising to be Taoist? What makes you think I am angry? I am just giving a clear description of Deng Ming Dao. Not more, not less. Just in case anyone else trying to elevate Deng from his cesspit must know. And please, no more throwing of good honest authors into that cesspit of Deng and try to say they are like him, or even worse, innuendo that he is like them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xor Posted May 8, 2013 "He who can't learn from a fake guru can't learn from a real one" or in this case gems can be found from cow dung that maybe lead the wise beyond what the fake had in mind. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted May 9, 2013 Then why ever bother with lineages? If fake will do, then be happy , and even be in esthetic bliss cuddling the fake. Might as well conjure up whatever you have in mind. Surely, what you conjured yourself will be much better than the fake in conjuring or plagiarising from the real. Let us all discard the real and go for the fakes. Let us be very happy with the fakes. Throw away the real as the world of fakes has no place for the real. Go on and promote the fake over the real. Go to the seminars and ask others to go the seminars given by the fakes. If that is the kind of world you want, by all means, go for that. Just as I allow you and your world of the fakes, allow me to remain in my world of the real. Idiotic Taoist 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walker Posted May 9, 2013 It is easy to have a bit of a soft spot for Chronicles of Tao if one read it at a certain stage in one's life and one's affinity with Daoism. But Taomeow, come on. What Shanlung points to is not mystification, nor embellishing a man's life story for the sake of telling a good story, nor using pseudonyms or noms de plume, even if all those things are in there. The problem he points to is demonstrable plagiarism and invention of fake episodes to be passed off as real with the likely intent as well as apparent result of drawing followers to a sham offered by the two men involved in the fraudulent writing. This is called bamboozling, which, unfortunately, is also a long-running tradition, and one that besets many who would wish to study Daoism and much else in the world that can be studied. Deng and Kwan may have inspired some people to look further into Daoism. But there is red dust on their hands, too, perhaps a lot of it. Stealing from Blofeld and lying to obtain followers and an audience is simply not in line with the ways of the tradition that Kwan and Deng claim to represent. Therein, and not in literary devices, lies the problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xor Posted May 9, 2013 Then why ever bother with lineages? If fake will do, then be happy , and even be in esthetic bliss cuddling the fake. This is not what I mean and I am thankful to you pointing this guy out before I even considered reading his books. Which I will luckily avoid like the plague after reading the opening post. I have no love for the fakes and scams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted May 9, 2013 It is easy to have a bit of a soft spot for Chronicles of Tao if one read it at a certain stage in one's life and one's affinity with Daoism. But Taomeow, come on. What Shanlung points to is not mystification, nor embellishing a man's life story for the sake of telling a good story, nor using pseudonyms or noms de plume, even if all those things are in there. The problem he points to is demonstrable plagiarism and invention of fake episodes to be passed off as real with the likely intent as well as apparent result of drawing followers to a sham offered by the two men involved in the fraudulent writing. This is called bamboozling, which, unfortunately, is also a long-running tradition, and one that besets many who would wish to study Daoism and much else in the world that can be studied. Deng and Kwan may have inspired some people to look further into Daoism. But there is red dust on their hands, too, perhaps a lot of it. Stealing from Blofeld and lying to obtain followers and an audience is simply not in line with the ways of the tradition that Kwan and Deng claim to represent. Therein, and not in literary devices, lies the problem. Thanks for explaining this to me so succinctly. Now to my original inquiry. (Shanlung, I'd be much obliged if you let me talk with Walker about it now, I'm finally getting the conversation I've been looking for, d'accord?..) Walker, according to one of my favorite interpreters of Taoist culture to Western minds, D.C. Lau, the notion of "plagiarism" is a particularly grey zone when we're dealing with taoism-related writings. Repeating what others wrote before you, often verbatim, has generally been seen as a sign of both veneration and continuation of the tradition, rather than stealing which Western copyright laws in service of protecting money (in most cases, the money of the monied) have criminalized. (I have an artist friend who believes these laws themselves are criminal, and artistic creations must belong to everybody, communal property so to speak, because the whole society is indirectly responsible for creating a creator, and he or she must give back freely -- authorship and ego and money considerations only matter in an artificial "stars system" elevating and propping the appointed dominant baboons Hollywood style. I argued with her, but I thought now may be a good time to bring up this view, somewhat extreme but not entirely without merit.) In particular, D.C. Lau gives numerous examples where TTC either directly quotes the Yuandao (without the attribution) or rephrases it a bit, borrows the imagery, appropriates whole concepts and ideas, etc. etc.. What I was after in my initial inquiry is somewhat broader than condemning or exculpating Deng, which is certainly not my place to do since I had neither the time nor the inclination to dedicate a chunk of time to studying the incriminating evidence. (Nor am I in the habit of taking someone else's guilty verdict to heart without a personal investigation, so I have no opinion one way or the other in this particular case. And consequently never expressed one, contrary to a participant's puzzling belief.) So, did he hurt somebody, is that what happened? Is that what I missed? Did he wind up getting some money that by law should have gone to someone else? I thought he just pulled a Kumare... ... but did he actually put his hand in Blofeld's pocket or something?.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites