Deng & Blofield works. Is it ethical?

[YMWong]

The author and Frank Kai ("master" Kwan Sai Hung real name) did not take money from Blofeld pockets (thou they may have from his descendants, depending on the copyright situation of his works) but they DID stole money from the gullible who bought their books thinking they were a (real) biography and by teaching others directly (Frank Kai has a school and quite a few students). Please check my old message here http://thetaobums.com/topic/8102-master-kwan-sai-hung/?p=122152 for more details and info.

While there is no need to demonize them, I find it unacceptable to excuse them and even less to present them as the good Samaritans. They are just two business people into making money, even if that mean cheating their "customers"

 

YM

Edited May 9, 2013 by YMWong

[Creation]

Walker, according to one of my favorite interpreters of Taoist culture to Western minds, D.C. Lau, the notion of "plagiarism" is a particularly grey zone when we're dealing with taoism-related writings.

 

Taomeow,

 

Here is a piece that I found very mind opening. The author suggests applying a framework developed in Talmudic scholarship for authorship and attribution to Buddhist studies.

 

Authors, plagiarists, or tradents?

 

"Anyone who has read much Tibetan literature will be familiar with one of its most salient differences to our own modern conventions: the ubiquitous verbatim repetition of phrases, sections, literary structures, and even entire chapters, across many different texts. Such repetition is commonplace even where these many different texts are written by ostensibly different authors. Some modern scholars have rather condescendingly (and stupidly) characterised this as ‘plagiarism’. They have entirely missed the point.

 

...

 

"Talmudic scholars no longer depend on the conventional modernist language of ‘authorship’ and ‘work’. Instead, they can speak of ‘tradents’, who ’re-anthologise’ existing ‘lemmata’ and ‘microforms’, sometimes anonymously, within the context of a culture of extraordinary textual memorisation and the ubiquitous synchronous interactions of written and oral modes of text."

Edited May 9, 2013 by Creation

[adept]

Well, whatever, I do have a soft spot for 365 Tao though, as do many others on the forum. Some poetic pearls of wisdom in that book.

[shanlung]

When I started on my road of Tao, it was not easy at all.

There were hardly any books on Taoism then as compared to now.

The Tao Te Ching and other books on Taoism were dry, academic and perhaps written by translators who were closet Christians with axe to grind.

 

I have my doubts anyone at way could ever be inspired by those kind of books to go to the Tao.

 

Luckily there were the books by John Blofeld. He opened my eyes to Taoism viscerally.

I owed him thanks and gratitude much more than I can say. And from time to time again, I would re-read his accounts of travels and his meetings with Taoist Masters and Adepts finding his dialogues with them a key to understanding what can not be understood. When I was in living in Hongkong, I was delighted to go to some of the places Blofeld had mentioned in Hong Kong and China and Hua Shan

 

In the 90s, Hongkong still retained a lot of the old Hong Kong, and China had not yet exploded into an orgy of developement.

While of course, the Masters Blofeld talked about were long gone, the places still had the atmosphere of what I had read.

 

So it was in early 96 that I was doing one of my re-read of Blofeld and as a result what Blofeld wrote was fresh in my mind.

A few days later, my wife bought me one of Deng Ming Dao's book 'Chronicles of TAO' by Deng Ming Dao.It was supposedly the story of Deng's Taoist master Kwan Saihung,

I was very much into Chinese Martial arts at that stage. It was absolutely clear that Kwan Sai Hung never knew Taoist related martial arts and what he knew was gained from that idiotic Carradine KungFu series and D grade novels that he read.

 

That was bad enough and I should have just used his book as a door stop and save me from a lot of anguish. But the book was so bad that I compelled myself to read on just to know how bad it could be.

 

And came on the part where Deng Ming Dao stole from Blofeld and writing that as his lessons via a coined up character of Kwan Sai hung.

 

Can you all imagine I would laugh at it? Or would I be very furious at this dirtbag of Deng Ming Dao? Clearly a thief ripping off works from people much better than himself.

 

In 96, I was a very lone voice in the wilderness in the pre Internet days of Taoism. My evidence was clear as can be seen in my first letter here. And slowly I swung over the views of those in my group against the vicious attacks on me by Deng and his minions.

 

I had been fighting that 20 years, perhaps long before you know even of the word Tao.

 

I hardly expect to have to resume this fight for honesty here.

And instead , I met with weaved up explanations how a thief is good. From some course done in the college, to dropping of good authors into that cesspool Deng is wallowing in, to Talmundic, Tibetan and eventually, the kitchen sink will be thrown into this thread as well.

 

Knowledge of what you been through in courses seemed useless if you do not have a sense of ethics in you.

My mouth dropped the other day in reading below

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22459815

 

A prominent barrister specialising in reproductive rights has called for the age of consent to be lowered to 13.

Barbara Hewson told online magazine Spiked that the move was necessary in the wake of the Jimmy Savile scandal to end the "persecution of old men".

She also said that complainants should no longer receive anonymity.

The NSPCC called her views "outdated and simply ill-informed" and said to hear them "from a highly experienced barrister simply beggars belief".

 

And if 13 years not young enough, why not make that 5 years or less?

So if the law is inconvenient for your pet old men who love kids, or your darling plagiarising Deng Ming Dao, the law should be changed?

Morals also be changed?

 

Because you can quote from a hundred and one unrelated stuff but you can make them relate?

To your convenience and satisfaction?

In the same way, declarations of folks here that Deng is good simply beggars belief.

 

Walk your own way then.

Allow me to remain an anachronism while you happily embraced and have your soft spot in and enjoy your fake repulsive plagiariser and the fake entity he recreated from the works of others

 

 

Idiot on the Path

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

Here is a piece that I found very mind opening. The author suggests applying a framework developed in Talmudic scholarship for authorship and attribution to Buddhist studies.

 

Authors, plagiarists, or tradents?

 

"Anyone who has read much Tibetan literature will be familiar with one of its most salient differences to our own modern conventions: the ubiquitous verbatim repetition of phrases, sections, literary structures, and even entire chapters, across many different texts. Such repetition is commonplace even where these many different texts are written by ostensibly different authors. Some modern scholars have rather condescendingly (and stupidly) characterised this as ‘plagiarism’. They have entirely missed the point.

 

...

 

"Talmudic scholars no longer depend on the conventional modernist language of ‘authorship’ and ‘work’. Instead, they can speak of ‘tradents’, who ’re-anthologise’ existing ‘lemmata’ and ‘microforms’, sometimes anonymously, within the context of a culture of extraordinary textual memorisation and the ubiquitous synchronous interactions of written and oral modes of text."

 

Thank you, Creation, that was awesome. Broadened my understanding. I already knew it has always been the case with authentic taoist literature, which makes a lot of sense if one considers proto-taoist shamanic origins of the tradition. The messenger always took a back seat to the message, with a few exceptions we venerate as the whales of the lore simply because history has made these names available but not others.

 

One of my first teachers never had a computer, I am not aware of her reading any books (doesn't mean she didn't of course), and her name is never going to be known -- unless I do something with what she gave me. (Not ready. ) And then I'd have to put my name to that unless I am allowed and encouraged to reference the lineage. Which I'm not. Quite a conundrum.

[Walker]

Walker, according to one of my favorite interpreters of Taoist culture to Western minds, D.C. Lau, the notion of "plagiarism" is a particularly grey zone when we're dealing with taoism-related writings. Repeating what others wrote before you, often verbatim, has generally been seen as a sign of both veneration and continuation of the tradition, rather than stealing which Western copyright laws in service of protecting money (in most cases, the money of the monied) have criminalized.

 

What you speak of is real and I have seen it firsthand, although that is not to say that quotes are never attributed. Sometimes one sees a simple, "经曰," which could be translated as, "it is said in the classics;" other times one might see a past text or individual's name next to a quote; other times text might be repeated with no attribution. All three possibilities arise in texts I have read that were written 2,000 years ago all the way up to the Qing Dynasty.

 

However, from what I understand and what I have observed, what we are talking about is usually the repetition of teachings, usually in the form of short segments of text: aphorisms, maxims, and fundamental knowledge that is often very widely known (like wuji gives birth to taiji, etc).

 

For example, there are a few sentences early on in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic that famously are almost a direct quote from the Daodejing. The presence of these sentences is often referenced in to show Daoism's influence on early Chinese medicine. Indeed, the sentences are not attributed to Laozi. In fact, nobody knows who wrote the Inner Classic. I can also think of one example where I saw a piece of 玄武's (the Perfected Warrior) hagiography show up in the hagiography of a Tibetan master. My barely-qualified observation is that, yes, in both ancient and modern China, what would be called plagiarism in the West is viewed very differently.

 

However, in my opinion, the above is very different from what we see with Deng's use of Blofeld, in that I very much doubt Xuanwu or the Tibetan master's hagiographies were written under their own direction, while they were still living and conveniently accepting students and selling books.

 

 

So, did he hurt somebody, is that what happened? Is that what I missed? Did he wind up getting some money that by law should have gone to someone else? I thought he just pulled a Kumare... ... but did he actually put his hand in Blofeld's pocket or something?..

 

As with you and YMWong, I do not want to demonize Deng and Kai/Kwan, but calling a spade a spade is a good idea in these murky times, I believe.

 

So did these two fellas hurt somebody? I'll answer with a question:

 

On this forum over the years, you have shared with the public many stories from your life that I remember well: encountering the old ladies outside of a church in Russia, one of whom screamed "the Virgin Mary;" encounters with Wang Liping, such as the one where he showed you how he could move his liver around at will; the acupuncturist who flung his needles across the room at you like darts; ancedotes from conversations with taiji teachers; etc. You have also shared a great many ideas and opinions.

 

Now, imagine if I were a fellow in the "business" of teaching Daoism as well as writing and selling books about Daoism, and I started to rather liberally "borrow" from your extensive contributions to this website, using the material on a personal blog or in an autobiograpy to bolster my claim--real or false--that I am a Dragon Gate Daoist teacher, martial artist, and healer with various accomplishments and a certain colorful circle of accomplished contemporaries. Perhaps I even go so far as to start "borrowing" from Open the Dragon Gate or Chronicles of Tao, or perhaps a much-lesser known book, like The Monastery of Jade Mountain.

 

So I gather a few students around me, I sell a few books. I make a few friends on Facebook. What's the big deal? Anybody get hurt?

 

Hard to say, hard to say, really depends how you look at it, no? After all, in the case of Deng and Kwan, are there not many people out there who say these books and these two men have helped them? Might my work not be helpful as well? And Taomeow wasn't selling her stories, so it's not like I was taking any money out of her pocket, right?

 

Granted, granted. Ah, Walker, you truly know how to 捣浆糊. But how about another question:

 

Am I personally embodying the timeless, simple, unchanging virtues passed down from high antiquity in extremely clear and concise language, in text after text, in daily regimen after daily regiment, through repetition after repetition, in temple after temple and home after home, by master after master and parent after parent?

 

The answer to that one is very, very clear. And thus it is said, over and over and over again:

 

以身作则，为人师表,

 

返朴归真

 

and

 

大道至简

 

(If you'll excuse a few unattributed quotes, )

Edited May 14, 2013 by Walker

[林愛偉]

 

(In Blofeld's words)

This final story of immortals is very different from the others, ...

 

 

This post is amazingly so direct to the point in cultivation... Immediately when reading Hulu Weng's instructions, my eyes widened, everything stopped, and finally the only thought that popped in my mind was " HAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

 

Then silence. The whole language he spoke is the language which causes the mind to tie up, squeeze, release, then realize. Its made to cause doubt, in which the doubt becomes the catalyst to real attainment. This formula is using the Daoist method nomenclature in the style spoken by those who "entered the way", realized the way.

 

It doesn't matter if it was a Buddhist, a Daoist, or anyone else. The manner is very specific in speech. Most will just get stuck on the riddles and actually assume they have to fly, or go and literally steal Lao Zi's things.

[gendao]

Employing aphorisms and idioms is one thing...plagiarizing and fictionalizing specific events and stories is another...

But, why don't any of you just contact Deng Ming-Dao himself, for his side of the story?

He does not appear that hard to find in the Bay Area, given that he's still actively writing and promoting his books?

Edited May 16, 2013 by vortex

[shanlung]

By all means, go get in touch with that despicable piece of s* Deng Ming Dao.

He got so many years to prepare and craft the side of his story that he want to put into your ears.

 

So easy for a piece of s* to make money.

No qualms to steal from others, steal from others , package that into his books and have his minions

and accolades to sing hosannas to his theft while he laugh all the way to his bank.

 

Go cradle and admire your fraud stealing and lifting works of others.

I go on to respect and protect the name of John Blofeld

 

Just as you have the right to decide as you wish to decide and to make public what you decide,

I and other readers here have the right to decide the kind of person that you are in accepting frauds and therefore have no ethics at all, and whatever that you write will forever be considered in that light.

 

As I said a few times before.

Go the way that you chose to go.

 

Taoistic Idiot

Edited December 23, 2013 by shanlung

[xor]

The story about a fur trader traveling and enjoying the hospitality in WW2 Europe is so far fetched that anyone should know it's simply made up. Just to clarify what I said earlier, you can learn something from a fake guru but when you notice the fake beard, phony accent and plastic cover it's time to move on.

[shanlung]

kicking up to make it easy for folks to read

 

Idiotic Taoist

[shanlung]

Dear Admin wrote to me that someone complained of my language in this thread that I kicked up.

In interest of harmony with Admin, I went back to adjust my language.

 

 

Making me wonder who was the person who complained of my language. Perhaps he think the world of that piece of s* Deng and his plagiarising ways. Such kind of person should write his views in this thread and not hide behind a rock to throw stones.

 

Show the world his/her stand of intellectual integrity.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

Edited December 23, 2013 by shanlung

[Mal]

~~~ moderator action ~~~

shanlung

Official warning:

Using asterisks doesn't get you out of the no insult policy.
Please clean up these posts as requested or be suspended.

I do find this language objectionable.

~~~ moderator action ~~~

[soaring crane]

Are those books still in print somewhere? I loaned mine out years ago and never saw them again. Actually, I do have the third one but that one's just annoying.

Edited December 23, 2013 by soaring crane

[shanlung]

~~~ moderator action ~~~

 

shanlung

 

Official warning:

 

Using asterisks doesn't get you out of the no insult policy.

Please clean up these posts as requested or be suspended.

I do find this language objectionable.

 

~~~ moderator action ~~~

 

 

I find it most fascinating what was written more then six months ago had no difficulties then at time of writing. Which suddenly seemed to raised a flurry of raised eyebrows.

 

The act of plagiarising seems to be ok.

The disgust expressed at plariarising seems to be discouraged.

 

Making me go through all kinds of contortions to appease one anonymous stone thrower and hugger of plagiariser.

 

I know admin can flex all kinds of muscles as they pleased.

I bend over more than backwards in my attempt to accomodate the appeasing of plagiariser lovers.

 

I do no more than that.

 

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Mal]

"Edited by shanlung, Yesterday, 10:09 PM." The posts are still basically the same

The act of plagiarising seems to be ok.

No - You wrote a really great explanation of what happened in this thread. Presented your opinion really well, and I actually agree with your position.

 

The disgust expressed at plagiarising seems to be discouraged

 

Yes - Calling someone a piece of shit is unacceptable

Would you like me to move posts 34 onwards into the pit and drop this thread back into the past?
If not edit them again today.

Obviously I don’t want to suspend you but a moderator request via pm for an obvious insult should not also need a post in the thread plus another post as well - all requesting the same action.

[shanlung]

 

I know admin can flex all kinds of muscles as they pleased.

I bend over more than backwards in my attempt to accomodate the appeasing of plagiariser lovers.

 

I do no more than that.

 

 

 

For a place where I spend about 1% of my internet time on, it is giving me about 50% of total aggravation in my life.

A place where taijichuan is on how slow you move and wave hands and legs and think of love and one with universe.

A place where the dead are mysteriously resurrected and coming into life with entities assuming all powers.

 

A place where admin loved the nail studded knuckle duster that they are wearing and everyone like kindergarten kids to toe their line.

 

I have not known of this place until a chance hit from google alerted me to here.

That was karma.

 

As to how the admin want to use their knuckle duster, you will see for yourself.

 

I will not see that as this is my last posting ever here.

And the last time I come here.

 

This is just to say goodbye to my friends (if any) here.

 

Life is short, and sweet. I rather enjoy rest of my remaining life than to accept the aggro of the piece of shit that is the admin here

[Mal]

Your choice.

Peace to you.

[dawei]

The act of plagiarising seems to be ok.

The disgust expressed at plariarising seems to be discouraged.

 

Making me go through all kinds of contortions to appease one anonymous stone thrower and hugger of plagiariser.

 

I know admin can flex all kinds of muscles as they pleased.

I bend over more than backwards in my attempt to accomodate the appeasing of plagiariser lovers.

 

I do no more than that.

 

That may be your feeling about what is going on here in the thread but it is not how I think some will see it.

 

We can agree with your point of view about the seeming plagiarism but that is not controlled here; only what is posted here and how it is posted is what matters on some level; which seems to be a basic disguise of 17 years ago.

 

I for one am glad your disguise for it still runs true to form. But is the tirade meant to create a following of disguise or an awareness or what? Maybe 17 years later it can provoke some disguise and that might be good.

 

In any case, this was a good thread and the information should be available to us. Thanks.

[Friend]

What do we learn?

 

People have to cultivate more resilence.

 

Also to question the reason "Why is it so?"

and beside the negative choice try to find

the positive choice.

 

To tell what is wrong and who said it is enough

to keep ones equilibrium. Any more word to instigate

is not tactful for the other readers.

 

A person who is in right makes someone else angry too

is same as someone who is not in the right

who caused the anger.

 

It is also cause anger when one talk about the stuff

that make one angry with others.

The other is having compassion to listen

and feel the same as they are on the same side.

 

So let people listen complaining to gain approval makes

one feel better but spread the negative story to as many

one tell it.

 

An example on what is appropiate is :

 

How powerful we become in martial arts

the law forbids to acts violent even when on is

the victim and the one who gets attacked.

 

Martial Artist when they punched the culprit

have bad cards in front of the officers.

It is different when one control culprit and seal the attack.

As well in the heated surrounding a word of swear

is enough to make officers loose composure.

People who want go more specific should read

"Dirty Ground" by Kris Wilder and Lawrance A. Kane.

 

One may be absolute right but if the culture of the place

has unspoken subrules then one has to be careful about word.

If the teacher is easygoing with other teaching beside of his

you can talk about and discuss the methods.

 

If the teacher is about to his lineage is the only one, talking about

other methods is affect the relationship.

 

There are countries you can openly swear to the authority with little consequence

while it is written in the laws that it is forbidden.

And at times even the police is asking twice to give a chance to correct the words

spoken in agitation before giving a fine and only in extreme cases will use locks

and those who have bad mood will getting more rough.

 

Other countries will go and give a head shot by the rules and right

to stop the stir up of rebellion and oral offense against the authority

as it 'might' inspire others to do this also.

 

It is the form an information is presented and where and when.

So my opinion.

[shanlung]

*BOOT*

 

Yanking this to the top by the root of its hair!

 

 

 

Taoistic Idiot bored with just drinking when thirsty and eating when hungry

[shanlung]

Booting this up as there seems to be a revival of that Deng Ming Dao recently