logical analysis & synthesis of immortality & its methods

[voidisyinyang]

 

LOL! I had to post that video now!

 

Well, I am I, if I think of myself as I or not! If I cut in your arm, you will feel the pain and not I. If I cut in my arm, I will feel the pain. Therefore it's pretty logical that I am connected with only my body and not anyone elses and that my "I" is located in only my body!

 

 

 

Ermm..you don't really believe that, do you?

btw, since when have animals no ego...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aGj-Y0shIs

 

 

Umm interesting point Dorian...

 

Let me give you another example to help you out.

 

Qigong master Jim Nance was a black belt in the 1960s and he was always winning his fights but afterwards he was bawling. The reason he bawled is because he could feel the pain he caused others as pain inside his own body.

 

So then this Chinese master came over and saw this happen to Jim. Jim said also when he fought he could see things in slow motion and then knew what the person's move was going to be ahead of time... Anyway so then the reason Jim was bawling afterwards even though he won the fight is because he now needs to study:

 

internal martial arts.

 

Now at the time no one knew what internal martial arts was where Jim was at and then he met qigong master Chunyi Lin around 1995 and discovered internal martial arts.

 

So you said:

 

 

Well, I am I, if I think of myself as I or not!

 

But notice I didn't not say:

 

I AM.

 

I said repeat I-I-I.

 

The word "I" by itself logically does not refer to anything -- it is self-transcending.

 

Of course I understand what you're saying. I'm talking about logical inference which means searching or listening to the source of the I-thought.

 

So you say you "are" whether you are aware you are or not.

 

But that is your mind stating that!

 

To be honest you have to admit that when you are in deep dreamless sleep then you are not aware you are asleep nor are you aware of spacetime or your body, etc.

 

But obviously you wake up and realize that you "are."

 

So the question has to remain.

 

Who are you? You are not your mind as defined by "I AM" thoughts.

 

You say "I AM" this or that and if someone hurts me then my body is me, etc. and not someone else's body, etc.

 

But all those are still thoughts of your mind reacting whereas I just pointed out that you are still you "am" even when you don't have thoughts.

 

So the question is who are YOU when you don't have any thoughts?

 

You can't say -- "I am my body" -- because that is again THOUGHTS -- that's a lie!

 

haha. So the only answer is to investigate the source of the I-thought.

 

Now that is "mind yoga" - it is obviously not the only way to experience consciousness beyond the mind - the Emptiness, etc. or even the extended mind that comes out of the Emptiness.....

 

but "mind yoga" is the logical basis for pursuing this truth of immortality.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin says you have to be extremely selfish to pursue the truth of selflessness.

 

So you have pointed out the same truth. This is explained by the I-thought -- Ramana Maharshi pointed it out also.

 

The I-thought is used to kill the mind. The I-thought "turns the light around" of the spirit.

 

Anyway too much silly talk --

[Wells]

They say you can look at the Five Skandhas and realize there is no "ego" or "self." That's why they say to get rid of the ego because it is false. You can disagree with it but only emptying the Five Skandhas will you be able to understand.

 

Right...

I don't hate myself and have no interest to delude myself into the false belief to be the cosmic consciousness.

I have no problem to look the truth into the face: I am this little consciousness in my brain, I am my personality and nothing else.

You should try ro analyse your "spiritual" need to be something "higher" than you really are to be able to understand the root of your problem with your so-called ego to be able to get into peace and harmony with what you really are!

Trying to "realize" (in fact trying to delude yourself into the false belief) that what you really are doesn't exist is extremely unhealthy...in fact it's highly self-destructive and only escapism!

[Wells]

A person which is happy with his life and has a high self-esteem would never even think about the idea of overcoming of even destroying himself...excuse me, his "ego".

This need only shows a psychological problem and it's clear why this idea of escapism originated in the land of india whith it's extreme poverty of the lower castes and the impossibility of social advancement into richer castes. I guess it was just a great trick of the Brahman's to quiet the lower castes to be able to exploit them even better.

 

In Taoist Systems, the goal is the contrary and a healthy one: Expanding the existence of your personality or ego forever! This is obviously a goal for a person who is happy with himself and with his life and has no sick need to escape both.

[idiot_stimpy]

This is obviously a goal for a person who is happy with himself and with his life and has no sick need to escape both.

 

Not for Buddhists as 'all is suffering'.

 

Although I am not a Buddhist.

 

Would you say you're interested in the glorification of the personality? To raise it up to god like status.

[voidisyinyang]

Right...

I don't hate myself and have no interest to delude myself into the false belief to be the cosmic consciousness.

I have no problem to look the truth into the face: I am this little consciousness in my brain, I am my personality and nothing else.

You should try ro analyse your "spiritual" need to be something "higher" than you really are to be able to understand the root of your problem with your so-called ego to be able to get into peace and harmony with what you really are!

Trying to "realize" (in fact trying to delude yourself into the false belief) that what you really are doesn't exist is extremely unhealthy...in fact it's highly self-destructive and only escapism!

 

Sitting in full lotus is the opposite of escapism! haha.

 

The mind yoga of the I-thought -- well have you heard about the "spiritual ego"?

 

So this is why spiritual masters will need to pursue the finest materialist items and mo' money, etc.

 

Taoism is the cutting edge of the commodity fetish -- because Taoists train from the "bottom up" -- transforming sex energy into the most refined, most monetarily valuable item - chi energy and even better shen energy.

 

It's the same thing in India dude - that is the caste system. So for example Vivekananda and Ramakrishna were out of reach for the masses since most could not afford financially to join their Vedanta society -- this is the focus of an academic article by Professor Hugh B. Urban.

 

So the spiritual ego is definitely real and even necessary -- Master Nan, Huai-chin admits this -- but it does not last.

 

For example the very end of "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" after creating multiple physical bodies -- what happens?

 

The spiritual training is to destroy your own body and then dissipate your chi energy throughout the universe.

 

The chi energy is still part of the 7th level of consciousness in Mahayana Buddhism -- the ego consciousness while the 8th level of consciousness is the Emptiness or the consciousness of the universe itself - the formless awareness.

 

O.K. so in India this is called Purusha -- as the spiritual god-man -- be it Krishna or Buddha or Jesus or Lao Tzu -- it is the personal savior that everyone must strive to be like.

 

But in the end this god-man in the highest astral realm has to be rejected as not the final reality.

 

For example Poonjaji was able to physically communicate with the God-men of India in his own room as a youth -- he was already in the highest astral realm holographically.

 

He then traveled across India asking all the spiritual masters to show him God directly.

 

Finally he saw Ramana Maharshi -- but he actually saw one of Ramana Maharshi's bilocated "yang spirits" or physical bodies.

 

So then he finally came to Ramana Maharshi at his ashram and he asked Ramana Maharshi to show him what God looks like.

 

Ramana Maharashi ...

 

 

As a young man, Harivansh Lal Poonja wandered for years throughout India in search of someone "who had seen God." His seeking led only to disappointment, until 1944 when he met Ramana Maharshi, the great sage of south India, who would die six years later. During one of their visits, Poonja, a dedicated Krishna devotee at the time, proudly described to Ramana his many visions of Krishna, as well as those of Rama, Sita, Lakshman, and Hanuman, superstars in the Hindu pantheon of deities. Quietly Ramana asked the young man, "Do you see these Gods now?"

"No," Poonja replied.

"What is the use of Gods who appear and disappear?" Ramana inquired. "Only the seer has remained. The sight has disappeared. Find out who the seer is." On hearing these words, Poonja's search was over. Instantly, he realized that "God is not an object but the subject itself."

 

hmm. so what was this "subject"?

 

 

fter a lifetime of devotion, he found that he could no longer bring his mind to think of God, do japa or any other spiritual practice. Deeply concerned, he asked Ramana for help and was told that this was not a problem, that all his practice had carried him to this moment and it could be left behind now because it had served its purpose. When telling Ramana about the story of his search of the Self or Heart:

Then he looked at me intently. I could feel that my whole body and mind were being washed with waves of purity. They were being purified by his silent gaze. I could feel him looking intently into my Heart. Under that spell­binding gaze I felt every atom of my body being purified. It was as if a new body were being created for me. A process of transformation was going on—the old body was dying, atom by atom, and a new body was being created in its place. Then, suddenly, I understood. I knew that this man who had spoken to me was, in reality, what I already was, what I had always been. There was a sudden impact of recognition as I became aware of the Self.

[web 3]

Poonja recognized this state as the same state he experienced when he was eight years old, but this time it was permanent.^{[web 3]}

 

Yeah so Poonjaji said that Zen or Ch'an Buddhism was the same philosophy and practice as what he discovered.

 

 

His message, like that of his teacher Sri Ramana, was always that the Self is already enlightened and free. Like Sri Ramana, he taught self-enquiry, which involved locating a person's sense of "I" and focusing on and investigating this directly.

Bhakti

Main article: Bhakti

He emphasized that there is ultimately no difference between guru and devotee, no teacher, no disciple and even no message. Poonja was quick to point out that devotional bhaktas such as Kabir, Ravidas, Sukdev and Mirabai were also awakened in the same state of freedom known as Sahaj Samadhi, which they called God.

Edited March 26, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Wells]

Not for Buddhists as 'all is suffering'.

 

Although I am not a Buddhist.

 

Because they won't bear any more suffering they want to escape the world through self-destruction (Nirvana)?

 

Would you say you're interested in the glorification of the personality? To raise it up to god like status.

 

A Taoist Immortal is equivalent to a god imo (a self-made-god, if you want) because his personality will exist forever, because he is free and is master of his own destiny because of his great power.

If you mean this with "glorification", sure! But I am not interested in worshipping someone or getting worshipped.

[Wells]

The spiritual training is to destroy your own body and then dissipate your chi energy throughout the universe.

 

LOL! This ultimately happens to every normal person through death. A "spiritual" system that follows this goal is completely absurd.

[Wells]

Sitting in full lotus is the opposite of escapism! haha.

 

The supposed benefit of full lotus escapes me!

The effect of meditative work depends on what you do with your mind, not on the posture of you body. The only thing that counts is that your posture doesn't disturb the work of your mind.

[Birch]

Near the end of the JOe Rogan podcast with Dr. Amit Goswami they get into free will - and how free will is an illusion when in the non-local consciousness realm....

 

http://llnw.libsyn.com/p/b/9/8/b98384af2f1baf8e/p334.mp3?s=1364265035&e=1364276961&c_id=5473114&h=ff216032bf2ac3a4f5dc4b10f61b470d

 

Basically Yan Xin says that intention is "bi-directional" and so any error of intention can be reversed - -but it's a learning curve.

 

Umm for example Yan Xin was in a car that died so he looked up to an electrical wire and pulled the energy down into the car engine which then started smoking - oops too much energy. haha.

 

So any egotistical siddhi power has to be reversed back into the Emptiness in order to reharmonize the energy. A blockage heals in the opposite direction and vice versa....

 

This process is eternal since we always already exist in non-local consciousness or the Emptiness -- and so consciousness as the ego is not the same as the Emptiness but the I-thought on its own is like a tool to use the ego against itself.

 

So only the I-thought is not self-referential -- there is nothing that it signifies and it is not the signified.

 

For example Noam Chomsky says if humans did not have I-language then humans could have the perceptions of other animals like rats seeing ultraviolet light and whatever -- basically all the yoga powers -- including immortality.

Noam Chomsky said that???

 

I was under the impression that ridding 'oneself' of I language didn't do anything for the 'form realm'. But I don't get the form realm stuff either.

[Wells]

For example Noam Chomsky says if humans did not have I-language then humans could have the perceptions of other animals like rats seeing ultraviolet light and whatever -- basically all the yoga powers -- including immortality.

 

It's pointless to comment to this absurd thesis...it says enough about the person who raised it anyways!

[voidisyinyang]

LOL! This ultimately happens to every normal person through death. A "spiritual" system that follows this goal is completely absurd.

 

The goal is eternal energy transformation from consciousness.

 

It is a paradox my friend.

 

The more you go into the Emptiness the more power you have.

 

haha.

 

So we always-already are consciousness.

 

So you ask how does full lotus body posture help?

 

You have discovered that "coherent energy" is the secret.

 

Coherence works from complementary opposite resonance -- yin-yang resonance.

 

This is what makes Taoism so important but it's the same as the three gunas of India, the oldest philosophy from Samkhya.

 

In turn the philosophies of India and China come from non-western music resonance from the oldest human culture, the Bushmen.

 

So no "one" can speak of the Tao. It's called Mouna Samadhi.

 

The mind empties out into eternal listening. Qigong master Yan Xin calls it "listening but not really listening."

 

In quantum physics it is the time-frequency uncertainty principle.

 

So full lotus optimizes the yin-yang resonance of the body mind dynamic.

 

The upper body is yang and lower body yin and right and left hand and right and left foot, etc.

 

This energy is eternal -- it is immortal and it is impersonal and so it arises from the non-local consciousness which secretly guides the energy.

 

So to be immortal you have to become Nothingness and in the process of becoming Nothingness you have to resonate through complementary opposites and in so doing you are reversing your physical energy.

 

So you build up the electrochemical energy and then build up the electromagnetic energy and then build up the light spirit energy and then this allows creating more electrochemical physical energy.

 

In alchemy it is stated that it both starts and ends with jing energy aka lead - but the lead is turned into gold which is the golden light aura of the immortal body.

 

But what powers the spirit is the chi electromagnetic energy -- so let's quote Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality directly.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34350503/Lu-K-Uan-Yu-Taoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality

 

See the common response to mind yoga is that if we always already are Emptiness then what is the point of meditating?

 

But that is your mind stating that! It is not immortal Emptiness. haha. In other words who are you not to meditate?

 

Vivekananda stated that jnana yoga or mind yoga is the simplest yet most difficult path to follow. Because the mind has to be extremely focused in order to transform the body also.

 

The mind on its own is very weak and so that is why the body has to be transformed first.

 

But as Master Nan, Huai-chin says - once immortal breathing is achieved -- aka "nirvikalpa samadhi" then the practice has to be mind yoga - it has to be on the source of the I-thought. Otherwise what is the point or goal of the practice -- just to fly around the universe infinitely? haha. It becomes pointless.

 

The goal of the practice is also the practice itself -- and this goal is the source of the I-thought as the truth of reality.

 

O.K. so let's quote the end of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

Noam Chomsky said that???

 

I was under the impression that ridding 'oneself' of I language didn't do anything for the 'form realm'. But I don't get the form realm stuff either.

 

yeah it's on pages 35-6 of Working Toward Enlightenment see Jetsun profile.

[puretruth01]

Drew, Since you are a serious scholar about this subject id like to tell you about the "Xing Ming Fa Jue Ming Zhi " it was written by

Zhao Bi Chen

 

Also check out These

 

Taishang ganying pian
Liaoyang dian wenda bien
Cunshen Lin Qi Ming

 

These may help your alchemic efforts

Edited March 26, 2013 by puretruth01

[voidisyinyang]

Drew, Since you are a serious scholar about this subject id like to tell you about the "Xing Ming Fa Jue Ming Zhi " it was written by

Zhao Bi Chen

 

Also check out These

 

Taishang ganying pian

Liaoyang dian wenda bien

Cunshen Lin Qi Ming

 

These may help your alchemic efforts

 

Yeah the English title is "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality"

 

 

Starting in the 1970s, American-Chinese authors also began to publish translations on Daoism, beyond the normative texts, such as Lu K‘uan Yü’s (Charles Luk) The Secrets of Chinese Meditation (1964) and his more influential Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality (1970) which gives a translation of the Xin Ming Fa Jue Ming Zhi (“The Secrets of Cultivating Essential Nature and Eternal Life”) written by an late 19th century Daoist master of internal alchemy, Zhao Bi Chen.

 

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeVI/Dao.htm

[puretruth01]

Ah thats good that you know of it. i always like to read the original when it comes to things like this.

 

The 3 below are also taoist texts on alchemy along the same vien.

Taishang ganying pian
Liaoyang dian wenda bien
Cunshen Lin Qi Ming

I wish you luck in in your pursuit

[gendao]

LOL! This ultimately happens to every normal person through death. A "spiritual" system that follows this goal is completely absurd.

When the veil of the ego (separating "known" from "unknown") is dropped and reintegrates with the unknown - and the "2 realms" become 1 again - one's unknown "immortality" (conscious reunification of both "worlds" so that they are no longer mutually-exclusive) becomes realized.

narrative now brings the hero full cycle – it is his destiny to depart from the mystical world he has discovered, and return to the banalities of life with his bounty. Symbolically, through this adventure, the hero has lost his life (self or ego), but by grace it is returned.

 

On return, the hero must resolve the Two Worlds – divine and human; known and unknown; yin and yang. The key to understanding the myth is that the two kingdoms are actually one. The unknown is a forgotten dimension of the world we already know. To explore that dimension is the whole deed of the hero. By crossing this final threshold, the hero recognizes that the apparent separation in reality does not exist – and he becomes the ‘Master of Two Worlds.’

 

Our hero achieves a ‘Freedom to Live’ – that is, the ability to pass freely between realms.

Edited March 27, 2013 by vortex

[Kasuku]

Well full lotus seems to efficiently pool the chi in the dantian kinda like the horse stance... I think chunyi lin says 1 hour of full lotus equals 4 hrs of other practices -

 

Drew are you saying immortal emptiness is necessary for celestial immortality only?

[voidisyinyang]

Well full lotus seems to efficiently pool the chi in the dantian kinda like the horse stance... I think chunyi lin says 1 hour of full lotus equals 4 hrs of other practices -

 

Drew are you saying immortal emptiness is necessary for celestial immortality only?

 

ummm Master nan, Huai-chin says how there are different levels of emptiness and different levels of consciousness.

 

So emptiness though is the same -- always already immortal -- but our conscious awareness of emptiness is at different levels.

 

So most people are not consciously aware while in the deep sleep state.

 

But the very first breath on waking up there is a moment of consciousness awareness of our theta dream REM state.

 

Most people are not consciously aware of the space between our thoughts yet with a little bit of self-enquiry a person can empty out their thoughts for a moment of awareness of Emptiness.

 

So the Emptiness is full of energy -- as Ramana Maharshi states -- when the mind as the source of the I-thought achieves Emptiness there is bright light -- but in actuality the bright light is the conscious awareness of the Emptiness -- so the bright light is actually the spirit shen energy but in its most pure form.

 

So Emptiness is always-already there and a person can momentarily go into a state of conscious awareness of Emptiness -- but it is very difficult to

 

stabilize

 

in a state of conscious awareness of Emptiness.

 

For example -- qigong master Jim Nance said back around 2005 that he had achieved the Emptiness only a few times. He was referring to what is normally called nirvikalpa samadhi or Immortal Breathing in Taoism. His third eye was not fully open yet so he had not stabilized into the Emptiness yet as the 8th level of consciousness. When he did stabilize then he was declared a qigong master.

 

So in that case the qi energy goes up while the spirit energy goes down and the small universe cycles like that -- the conceptual thoughts and physical breathing are very minimal and there is also astral travel -- holographically. If there is a spacetime vortex as dizziness this means the spirit is leaving the body without having enough chi stored up inside.

 

So that is what happened to me and already I had strong chi but I did not know what had caused the spacetime vortex. It was in the very book I had been studying but I had not been able to really scrutinize the text to find the answer -- not until ten years later did I discover it.

 

I would say immortal emptiness is always already there - it is the truth of reality but we are only consciously aware of immortal emptiness when we transform the whole physical body into the spirit energy but storing the spirit energy inside the chi energy and then focusing the spirit energy on the Emptiness inside the physical body.

 

I think at that point anything is possible but nothing happens at all -- it is the ultimate sacrifice of power because the greatest power comes from the greatest Emptiness.

 

So for example Mahayana Buddhism as per the book Measuring Meditation (Bodri and Master Nan) criticizes Ramana Maharshi and Poonjaji as only emptying out the 7th level of consciousness and then letting their bodies waste away.

 

So Ramana Maharshi and Poonjai both created "yang spirits" or bilocation of other physical bodies -- but we know that Poonjaji was not consciously aware that he had created another physical body - or as he did multiple physical bodies at the same time. So he had not stabilized in that power since he had not been consciously aware of it.

 

O.K. another good example is in the biography of the most famous monk of Thailand -- Phra Achran Mun.

 

O.K. so one of the monks is levitating but when he realizes he is levitating then he falls back to the ground. So he has to train himself to be consciously aware that he is levitating while still remaining harmonized in the Emptiness that enables that power.

 

This is what the Buddhists mean by Wisdom - it is the trance concentration of the right brain -- as the Bushmen state - God watches the person being healed while the healer trances the person being healed. So God is the Emptiness while the trance is the laser light energy that is coherent energy and therefore harmonized back into the Emptiness at the same time the energy is manifesting.

 

Yeah so left brain conceptual thought disharmonizes the energy but if right brain focus can be maintained as one-pointed thought or concentration -- this empties out the left brain. For example when Jim Nance is healing someone of cancer he tells the person to repeat in their mind as fast as they can: "light light light light" and then to visualize laser light shooting into the tumor.

 

So basically the immortal Emptiness is what is called "nirvikalpa samadhi" but otherwise samadhi is a one-thought concentration as a trance state. So as Ramana Maharshi states most energy masters maintain their spiritual ego because they don't continue practicing nirvikalpa samadhi - they don't keep emptying out their thoughts - and so the spiritual masters get attached to their powers and then they just circulate around the astral realms, etc. So in Supreme Complete Enlightenment the nirvikalpa samadhi has to be applied not just to the mind as the 7th level of consciousness but also to the body consciousness -- and so this is the jing energy as alchemy. Once the body is emptied out then the bilocation powers are stabilized and so there is no longer an ego attachment to the bilocation powers.

 

For example in Measuring Meditation Bodri and Nan claim that the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" is not true enlightenment because there is still mind attachment to the bilocation "yang spirit" powers. I'm not sure why they think that is the case - but it could be there is still attachment to the realm of form in that the spirit energy has to be contained inside the chi energy which is inside the jing energy in the lower tan tien. Master Nan, Huai-chin seemed to think that focusing on the lower tan tien was too limiting since sometimes the energy needed to move elsewhere and that also a Taoist master would get the "chi belly" if they had not really achieved the Emptiness as Nirvikalpa Samadhi - if they had not fully opened up their third eye.

 

So anyway at that level of practice it's not surprising that there would be disagreements. For example one of the top masters of the YOgananda lineage needed to have young females massage him so he could take in their jing energy to replenish his energy -- as Michael Winn details. Or another example is that Bodri and Nan say that eating meat is important to build up the jing energy if there is going to be transformation of the physical body -- I'm just mentioning stuff without all the precise details. But another example is that at death the spirit energy could accidentally leave out of the backside bottom if a person still needs to have a bowel movement which happens automatically at death. So that it would be easy to go to hell if a person is not fasting before death and also they don't have enough chi energy to power their spirit out of their upper body. Like at the end of the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" the person sits on a wooden bun or butt plug basically to prevent loss of energy from that hole. In contrast Ramana Maharshi and Poonjaji just say to let the body decay as that it just contains past dead karma and only formless awareness is truly eternal.

 

So immortal emptiness is necessary for everything all the time - but being consciously aware of immortal emptiness is considered a realm of static bright golden light. Yet that is the realm of form whereas under Mahayana Buddhism a person still needs to empty out the realm of desire because if the body becomes physically sick then the mind will sink into oblivion at death and there will be no conscious awareness of the Emptiness at death.

 

So the Buddhist Supreme Complete Enlightenment is definitely an ideal that few if any have achieved but still it's always good to overshoot the goal just to be safe. haha.

 

Yeah so I think an example of conscious awareness in trance without left brain conceptual thought would be like juggling. B/c when a person juggles they usually kind of stare ahead in one direction and then just keep a wide focus while their arms are moving. So this is a very light trance as conscious awareness but if the person starts to conceptually think about each ball that is being juggled then they fall out of conscious awareness by getting attached to the energy causing an imbalance or disharmony and the juggling collapses. haha.

 

Riding a bicycle would be another example since it involves both forward and sideways movement and in fact it's how Einstein described spacetime and inertia -- anyway you could see how martial arts and tai chi are related to trance awareness and Emptiness.

Edited March 27, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Birch]

yeah it's on pages 35-6 of Working Toward Enlightenment see Jetsun profile.

I will read it. Thanks (much) to Jetsun for his links.

[Wells]

Well full lotus seems to efficiently pool the chi in the dantian kinda like the horse stance...

 

John Chang's master trained him for hours with the painful horse stance to develop his discipline.

I acknowledge the worth of this exercise for this purpose, but there is no connection to Mo Pai level 1 training at all ("pooling chi into tantien").

 

I think chunyi lin says 1 hour of full lotus equals 4 hrs of other practices -

 

Then Drew must be level 72 already for all the time he spend in full lotus (incl. sitting before the computer in full lotus!).

Drew, please load up a video on youtube where you prove your amazing chi powers that result from your years of pooling up chi in your Tantien to the level of an atomic bomb and I immedeately throw my Clyman DVD's out of the window and just train full lotus for the rest of my life!

 

Drew are you saying immortal emptiness is necessary for celestial immortality only?

 

Meditating on emptiness is simply closing your conscious mind to any sense data and arising thoughts for the time of the meditation! Without any doubt a good preperation meditation for Nei Kung training which uses your mind to develop and store up energy in your system and therefore a training that leads to results.

But in itself, meditation of emptiness/nothingness HAS NO WORTH IN ITSELF! It doesn't result in enlightenment or ascension or anything else like this! Enlightenment is (as it's name suggests) an ENERGETIC PHENOMENON! We have people on this board who already have enlightenment experiences because of their energy training, like Darin Hamel! Enlightenment is an experience that occurs if you simply pump enough chi into your brain! Therefore kundalini yoga is one of the most efficient ways to reach this state. But meditation on emptiness has nothing to do with enlightenment...BESIDES the true core of the meditation is the fact that you concentrate your consciousness in your brain to pull all your chi in that area! Then this can surely lead to "enlightenment"! But the reason for this is not the so called emptiness, the reason is the accompanying ENERGY WORK, that you pull all of your energy (chi) into your brain!

 

The false assumption, that enlightenment can be reached through meditation on emptiness suggests that this state can be reached through abstract processes like "understanding" emptiness or passive processes like "going into emptiness so it can transform you".

Well, no, I have to disappoint you in case you want to dodge hard work: Enlightenment, as anything else in life, has to be achieved through CONCRETE and ACTIVE work and not through ABSTRACT and PASSIVE processes:

Using your mind to transport energy from point A to Point B (Nei Kung), that's the name of the game to produce real progress and results.

 

And always it are the masters of energy work, not the masters of abstract meditations, who can back up their claims of high spiritual development with demonstrations of the accompanying powers.

Why? Because the others don't have powers because they don't have spiritual development, simple as that!

Edited March 27, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

Who said meditation on emptiness? Prerequisites is mastering all nine samadhis. That's only one part of it.

Have you read the Heart sutra? You should. You seem to only appeal to Mo Pai. You shouldn't be spreading disinformation on Buddhism if you don't study it. No one understands it at first glimpse onless your prajna is great. It takes time.

 

I started out with Yoga & Meditation in my youth, reading many works of Sri Aurobindo (incl. The Synthesis Of Yoga), Sri Chinmoy, Vivekananda (Raja Yoga), Patanjali, Sivananda and Yogananda. Also, I applied this knowledge practically.

Therefore I know what I'm talking about.

 

I agree with you that samadhi (contemplation) is originally just a tool to mastery....of powers, as everyone knows who has read Patanjali and Vivekananda's interpretation of his Yoga Sutras.

 

Samadhi as "simply going into emptiness" doesn't really do anything and is a common misinterpretation of the methods described in the Yoga Sutras. Samadhi is nothing special that is an achievement in itself. It's just the use of your extremely concentrated mind, that's all.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Dorian Black

[idiot_stimpy]

Would you want immortality if it was a lie?

 

How much are you willing to stake on the search for truth.

 

This forum post is not directed at anyone.

[voidisyinyang]

I started out with Yoga & Meditation in my youth, reading many works of Sri Aurobindo (incl. The Synthesis Of Yoga), Sri Chinmoy, Vivekananda (Raja Yoga), Patanjali, Sivananda and Yogananda. Also, I applied this knowledge practically.

Therefore I know what I'm talking about.

 

I agree with you that samadhi (contemplation) is originally just a tool to mastery....of powers, as everyone knows who has read Patanjali and Vivekananda's interpretation of his Yoga Sutras.

 

Samadhi as "simply going into emptiness" doesn't really do anything and is a common misinterpretation of the methods described in the Yoga Sutras. Samadhi is nothing special that is an achievement in itself. It's just the use of your extremely concentrated mind, that's all.

 

Ramana Maharshi fundamentally disagreed wtih Sri Aurobindo.

 

The type of "emptiness" you are describing is just a low level of emptiness. haha.

 

There are different ways of sitting in full lotus but the full lotus thread here has great information from Wang Liping on why the full lotus is so effective.

 

So to get into nirvikalpa samadhi as the Emptiness means the body has to be full of chi energy and so a person can sit in full lotus with no movement and no pain for 2 hours at least - more like 4 hours. Wang Liping had to start out his training sitting four hours with no movement in full lotus but his masters tied him up. haha.

 

Actually if you read Sri Aurobindo's Yoga Journal which was just published 10 years ago -- he details that he relied on full lotus meditation when he was in jail and Vivekananda appeared to him and transmitted his energy to Aurobindo.

Edited March 27, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Simple_Jack]

The type of "emptiness" you are describing is just a low level of emptiness. haha.

What type of "emptiness," are you describing? How familiar are you with this concept from a "Buddhist" perspective?

[voidisyinyang]

What type of "emptiness," are you describing? How familiar are you with this concept from a "Buddhist" perspective?

 

http://zenanddao.blogspot.com/2011/09/full-emptiness-empty-emptiness-and.html

 

Here's a nice overview on emptiness.

 

I don't do "labels" - so the whole quest for the official Buddhist answer is hilarious.

 

But this thread was started with a question on immortality - for a Buddhist perspective on immortality I would recommend reading Measuring Meditation -- by Bodri and Nan. But for a more Theravedin take on immortality I recommend reading the biography of Phra Achran Mun which is not discussed by Bodri and Nan. haha. You can read that free online as Theravedin monks are required to provide information for free. haha. http://www.thaibuddhism.net/Achan_Man.pdf

 

But the Emptiness I'm talking about at the least is what is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi -- Master Nan gets into this also.

 

I'll post some quotes to give an idea.

 

 

The sixth and seventh consciousness are easy to transform. Once thoughts are empty, and past, present, and future are emptied out, the sixth consciousness is transformed into a pure illuminated realm of immediate awareness. If your meditation work advanced further, the seventh consciousness can also be emptied out. That is easy: it is a transformation at the level of the causal basis… Transformation at the level of effect is difficult. The first five consciousnesses associated with the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body, encompass this physical body. The eighth consciousness, the alaya consciousness, encompasses not only the physical body, but the whole material world. The first five and the eighth consciousnesses can be transformed only when the level of effect is complete, only when you have realized the level of the fruit of enlightenment. How can this be called easy?

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), p. 256.

 

 

When you have genuinely entered Samadhi, the breath [electromagnetic chi] is definitely full. In a person filled with breath, no matter how old, all parts of the body are soft and supple, and the person becomes as supple as a baby… What is most important is correcting our minds. Any posture will do: when your meditation succeeds, your legs will become supple and you will naturally be able to sit cross-legged [full-lotus] steadily…. If the breath [electromagnetic chi] is not cultivated until it circulates freely, and the network of energy channels is not

transformed, then you will not be able to attain Samadhi.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), pp. 128, 175.

 

 

There are many people who cultivate practice until they are very pure, but their bodies are all sick…. When they really get to the brink of death, they cannot completely empty out that one moment of thought, and so they sink down into oblivion following it. So the moment of purity that they attained, frankly speaking, is something material, something that is linked to their physical health. Can something like this be relied upon? It cannot.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, Working Toward Enlightenment: The cultivation of practice (Red

Wheel/Weiser, 1993), p. 204.

 

 

In Taoism they also have the term “100 days of celibacy”, which started in the Ming dynasty in the Wu Liu school. This is a time period spoken of by Taoism, but not the Esoteric school. The real 100 days of laying the foundation doesn’t mean no ejaculation. It means you don’t move your mind — it means THAT YOU ARE IN SAMADHI FOR 100 DAYS. That’s the real 100 days. It doesn’t mean you hold your jing for 100 days. That’s the RESULT of this practice. Everyone gets that wrong. Of course, men and women can both hold their jing for 100 days for health and cultivation and that’s good for them. It has lots of benefits.

 

Bill Bodri, “A Little About Sexual Tantra …” http://Meditationexpert.com