stefos Posted March 24, 2013 Hi everyone, Something very interesting since I last posted has happened to me. An understanding about Advaita Vedanta & Dzogchen: If one reads Sir Nisargadatta's "I AM THAT" and Sri Ramana Maharshi's teachings, etc. and compares with what Dzogchen teachings say one finds 3 similar things, when all is boiled down, so to speak (Each way doesn't use the lingo of the other, it's just given to express the sameness): 1. Non-duality 2. Sat-Chit-Anand OR Emptiness-Clarity-Energy 3. Self Liberating thoughts...which is neither replacing one thought with another nor transforming them into something else vis a vis Tantric visualization(s) Comments? Thank you, Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) Regardless of the intellectual system, one can recognize unfabricated presence vs the conceptualizing mind. Zen people do it through reading texts. Vajrayana people have direct introduction. Advaitins have satsang. Edited March 24, 2013 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boy Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) ... Edited March 30, 2013 by Boy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted April 1, 2013 (edited) Regardless of the intellectual system, one can recognize unfabricated presence vs the conceptualizing mind. Zen people do it through reading texts. Vajrayana people have direct introduction. Advaitins have satsang. Unfabricated "presence" per se is an immediate reality, as Vajrayana doesn't accept this presence unless you refer to Mahamudra, which is a "gradual reality"... To me, How does one see one's presence 'gradually?"...Seems ridiculous. I don't like the statement "I gradually come to presence." Mahamudra is strange & incorrect to me at my present level of having zero experience with it. Advaitins having satsang is not true "in and of itself".... REAL SATsang is being the Self, not "hanging with noble peeps" as it were. Non-conceptual being is the SELF......Beyond mental concepts. ... What pray tell is this about? Agree, Don't agree with me..........Can you elaborate? ... Thanks, Stefos Edited April 1, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted April 1, 2013 Dzogchen's pinnacle is the utter and complete realization of the inseparability of wisdom and compassion. AV does not seem to encapsulate the truth of compassion in its impeccable search for wisdom. Hence, in my opinion, Dzogchen takes one further. Unfabricated presence is meaningless without compassion as its basis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted April 1, 2013 (edited) Talking about this absolute and or far out stuff is often a form of projected suffering unless one has a complete and sure foundation in all the steps related to it to for protection... and the more Buddhist it gets the more it should go to that forum. Edited April 1, 2013 by 3bob 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted April 1, 2013 Talking about this absolute and or far out stuff is often a form of projected suffering unless one has a complete and sure foundation in all the steps related to it to for protection... and the more Buddhist it gets the more it should go to that forum. Such patriotism is only to be admired! (I promise to try not to poke my nose in here again.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted April 1, 2013 Dzogchen's pinnacle is the utter and complete realization of the inseparability of wisdom and compassion. AV does not seem to encapsulate the truth of compassion in its impeccable search for wisdom. Hence, in my opinion, Dzogchen takes one further. Unfabricated presence is meaningless without compassion as its basis. Hehe...Truth of Compassion? Is that what is driving your proselytizing campaign these days? Mods, I request that this thread be locked. It has been a source of great civil unrest amongst the Bums and also, may I request that Buddhist campaigns be moved to the Buddhist forum? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted April 1, 2013 Dzogchen's pinnacle is the utter and complete realization of the inseparability of wisdom and compassion. AV does not seem to encapsulate the truth of compassion in its impeccable search for wisdom. Hence, in my opinion, Dzogchen takes one further. Unfabricated presence is meaningless without compassion as its basis. Well of course beyond unfabricated presence, they are way different. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted April 1, 2013 Hehe...Truth of Compassion? Is that what is driving your proselytizing campaign these days? Mods, I request that this thread be locked. It has been a source of great civil unrest amongst the Bums and also, may I request that Buddhist campaigns be moved to the Buddhist forum? Its heartwarming to see you have retained your zeal after all these years, so much so the moment anyone whom you perceived to be 'from the other camp' utter even an opinion, its either militant-like or proselytizing. Im glad to stay far from this Vedanta forum thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted April 1, 2013 Well of course beyond unfabricated presence, they are way different. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Ok! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted April 1, 2013 its funny that this thread started with the similarities but as soon as it got "too buddhist" it was requested to be segregated Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted April 1, 2013 its funny that this thread started with the similarities but as soon as it got "too buddhist" it was requested to be segregated It's because there is no genuine interest to see similarities in the "other camp". Only disparaging condescension about reification and how it sucks. When adults come to discuss with civility I will be glad to endorse such discussions In any case I am a nobody so why should my opinion matter anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted April 1, 2013 (edited) It's because there is no genuine interest to see similarities in the "other camp". I am interested. http://thetaobums.com/topic/27587-there-is-no-consciousness/page-2#entry416477 http://thetaobums.com/topic/27662-ekam-sat-the-nature-of-mind-in-dzogchen/#entry416898 Edited April 1, 2013 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted April 1, 2013 Hehe...Truth of Compassion? Well in Mahayana, infinite aspiration to help infinite sentient beings makes the Sambhogakaya be infinite. Namdrol said this many times on Esangha, and I assume he knows what he is talking about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted April 1, 2013 It's because there is no genuine interest to see similarities in the "other camp". Only disparaging condescension about reification and how it sucks. cant we all just get along When adults come to discuss with civility I will be glad to endorse such discussions In any case I am a nobody so why should my opinion matter anyway? im not sure anyone's opinion matters, but its a common mistake to think that they do anyway, i was just delighting in irony, i am not genuinely interested in taking a stance on this issue as my knowledge of AV is almost completely limited, and my knowledge of dzogchen and buddhism is significantly limited lol. so aside from the pointing out of irony, i have nothing relevant to contribute. thank you for humoring me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted April 2, 2013 Its heartwarming to see you have retained your zeal after all these years, so much so the moment anyone whom you perceived to be 'from the other camp' utter even an opinion, its either militant-like or proselytizing. Im glad to stay far from this Vedanta forum thanks. CowTao, See who have posted and how they troll here before commenting on my "zeal". If it was you, I'd have no issues with the posts, since you are not one of the "militant proselytizers". BTW you statement about my "zeal" does reveals what's on your mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted April 6, 2013 Hi everyone, I put this here to show the comparisons and NOT to debate. O.K???? Are we clear about my intent? The bottom line is: Why not be in that state or be that? Stop arguing..........it's childish. Mods, don't lock this thread please! Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I used to think that "self liberating thoughts" was ONLY a "Dzogchen thing." When I read Sri Nisargadatta primarily & now Sri Ramana......I can't believe I missed it. Very interesting........and very useful in day to day affairs.......avoiding the formation of samskaras. Stefos Edited April 6, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted April 6, 2013 Madhyamaka: Nonarising/illusion because dependently originated phenomenon do not arise.Advaita Vedanta: Nonarising/illusion since Brahman never displays as anything other than Brahman.Dzogchen Upadesha : Nonarising/illusion since the five pure lights never display as anything other than the five pure lights.Kashmir Saivism: Everything is One and real. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted May 6, 2013 Madhyamaka: Nonarising/illusion because dependently originated phenomenon do not arise. Advaita Vedanta: Nonarising/illusion since Brahman never displays as anything other than Brahman. Dzogchen Upadesha : Nonarising/illusion since the five pure lights never display as anything other than the five pure lights. Kashmir Saivism: Everything is One and real. Thank you! Is this so? How does the Cittamatrin school exactly fit here? I have read some of its' view and is similar to Dzogchen, per se. Regards, stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 6, 2013 I have read some of its' view and is similar to Dzogchen, per se. No its not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted May 13, 2013 No its not Yes, it is and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu mentions this in passing only. They aren't the same. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
