Taoism and Race

[Kongming]

Is Taoism as open to members of non-Chinese and non-East Asian races as, say, Christianity or Buddhism? Does Taoism have the ability to have a universal appeal?

 

Are there any prejudices against non-Chinese who are interested in Taoism, particularly in Chinese countries or communities? For example, do Westerners who have interest in Taoism find doors closed to them based upon their race? Say for example if a Westerner desired to join a Quanzhen monastic community, would there be any hesitation or desire to keep foreigners out by the Chinese?

 

Related to these questions is the folk religion aspect of Taoism. From what I understand, the separation between "religious" and "philosophical" Taoism is misrepresentation of the reality of Taoism as it is actually practiced. So for a Westerner who wishes to be a Taoist, would he have to venerate Guan Yu for example? Do all Chinese Taoists venerate Guan Yu or other such cultural heroes/gods or are there Chinese Taoists that simply focus on cultivation, meditation, and living in accordance with Taoist philosophy and virtues?

 

I ask because I wonder how "accepted" Westerners (assuming they become fluent in Mandarin) are by the Chinese Taoists. I also wonder because for me personally, I'd like to avoid the sort of New Age flavored "Neo-Taoism" and discover what authentic Taoism is, but I am not sure such a spiritual world is even open to non-Chinese (or non-East Asians.) I especially wouldn't like to impose on a community that doesn't want me or interfere with their harmony with my presence as I sincerely respect their spiritual quest.

 

Thanks for any information anyone can provide on these topics.

[Samurai Mountain man]

If someone closes a door on you based solely on their prejudice, it's probably for the best; would you want to listen to such a person in the first place?

 

And more importantly: None can have monopoly over the Tao, none can be an authority on the Tao.

[ChiForce]

The Tao is universal. It needs not to appeal to anything. I am a Chinese American and spent 10 years of my childhood growing up in Hong Kong. I can tell you that Chinese people do not worship Taoism. Taoist themes are generally experienced in movies and TV shows. It is always about defeating some evil spirits or on a quest to acquire some ancient secrets to give you super human powers. I think only some people from the West or if your family linkage related to the various Taoist schools are really taking Taoism seriously. And the idea of immortality and to have one consciousness suspended in time, or in the Mind Ground, after your death.....is or can be racially linked. That is, the Taoist sage who passed away aeons ago can pass on their enlightened consciousness on to you because of the racial and cultural linkages. I am just talking about my experiences. If there are non-Chinese having Chinese visions or dreams, it is possible that the Tao linkage can be passed on to non-Chinese.

 

 

[chenping]

Is Taoism as open to members of non-Chinese and non-East Asian races as, say, Christianity or Buddhism? Does Taoism have the ability to have a universal appeal?

 

There is not only one form of Taoism just as there are different Buddhist sects and Christian denominations. Each derivative springs up to serve the needs of a specific group with its own belief system. A western Buddhist like Richard Gere has a lot in common with a western Taoist based on their same Judeo-Christian cultural background. But a Sri Lankan Buddhist would have nothing in common with a Zen Buddhist of Japan.

 

Are there any prejudices against non-Chinese who are interested in Taoism, particularly in Chinese countries or communities? For example, do Westerners who have interest in Taoism find doors closed to them based upon their race? Say for example if a Westerner desired to join a Quanzhen monastic community, would there be any hesitation or desire to keep foreigners out by the Chinese?

 

We have our very own westerner forum member Flowing Hands who practises Mao Shan Taoism as a shaman in Chinese communities.

 

Related to these questions is the folk religion aspect of Taoism. From what I understand, the separation between "religious" and "philosophical" Taoism is misrepresentation of the reality of Taoism as it is actually practiced. So for a Westerner who wishes to be a Taoist, would he have to venerate Guan Yu for example? Do all Chinese Taoists venerate Guan Yu or other such cultural heroes/gods or are there Chinese Taoists that simply focus on cultivation, meditation, and living in accordance with Taoist philosophy and virtues?

 

Different strokes for different folks. To each his own. You create your own Taoism and tweak it to your liking. Even a gorilla can venerate Guan Yu if it wants to.

 

I ask because I wonder how "accepted" Westerners (assuming they become fluent in Mandarin) are by the Chinese Taoists. I also wonder because for me personally, I'd like to avoid the sort of New Age flavored "Neo-Taoism" and discover what authentic Taoism is, but I am not sure such a spiritual world is even open to non-Chinese (or non-East Asians.) I especially wouldn't like to impose on a community that doesn't want me or interfere with their harmony with my presence as I sincerely respect their spiritual quest.

 

Every form of Taoism is authentic, even the New Age kind. The Tao that can be told is authentic. If you can sink your teeth into it, it is authentic. And you don't have to be Chinese to partake in the Taoist feast.

Edited March 27, 2013 by chenping

[silas]

Is Taoism as open to members of non-Chinese and non-East Asian races as, say, Christianity or Buddhism? Does Taoism have the ability to have a universal appeal?

 

Every form of Taoism is authentic, even the New Age kind. The Tao that can be told is authentic. If you can sink your teeth into it, it is authentic. And you don't have to be Chinese to partake in the Taoist feast.

 

New Age Taoism answers the question specifically, because it is a blend of Taoism and Christianity. New Age Taoist temples and churches map between Taoist teachings and Christian theology and are part of the global effort to produce a unification religion, a single world religion. Classical Taoism, a religious form of philosophical Taoism, has its own interfaith theology.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think the fact of the matter is that Westerners are far more "foreign" in other countries than other people are in Western countries, meaning that people outside of Western countries are not used to Westerners being in their country like (most) Westerners are used to people from every corner of the globe. The process of familiarity is still developing there.

 

i think it's safe to say you will experience about the same hesitation as if you were studying African drumming in Ghana. It's possible to befriend people who will know your sincerity, but you can't just find these people in classified adds. There is a world there that is kept hidden to protect its purity from being debased by those who are not sincere participants. local or foreign.

 

Like others have said in similar topics, and I illustrated in the "kumare" thread, some people operate like taxis for tourists, taking them all around town and acting like its on the way to where they want to go (especially if said tourist doesn't know where he/she's going). Though requiring wise discernment, it's possible to find sincere fellow artists/practitioners, who share your enthusiasm, anywhere you go.. while it's rarely if ever easy.

[Stosh]

^{As an american of european descent , I see no reason why the understanding of the principles is not amenable to anyone who can accept them .}

^{I also see a lot of tolerance in general on here, to various points of view about the Tao, and Taoism as a practice.}

^{There is however , if one such as myself , has a view that someone -who is chinese- doesnt agree with , some say that I dont get it because I either have a western mind or that I dont speak one of the chinese languages.}

^{I dont consider this a fair accusation}

^{1) because not everyone speaks the Chinese of Lao tzu, few do with any authority.}

^{The meanings of terms shift with tiny adjustments of the characters and context .}

^{2) because I have no problem reading the english a chinese speaking person used to relate the translation.}

^{3) between folks who speak chinese languages , there is plenty of variation -so there is not a uniformity of understanding which arises from the knowlege of the language itself}

^{4) Of the folks who think their understanding superior due to nationality or language , plenty are happy wiith the non logical determination of meaning attributed to various writings , in essence they are fine with the fact that they have no idea what they are talking about.}

 

^{I do not attribute much of these attitudes to bigotry ,some points can be soundly made against me regarding this topic.}

^{But I do think there is a degree of possiveness ,and a degree of impression that one has a first row ticket based on race or language or culture OR that one has an exclusive ticket to paradise based on some clan affilliation.}

^{I consider these only minor flaws of character , certainly not exclusive to taoists.}

^{The christianity bashing that crops up from time to time is again due to weakness of character, and is uglier to me than the accusation that I am confused or too predisposed to the cultural norms I grew up with,,,because I know plenty of fine people who are christian .}

^{SSSSSO to finalize all that I dont see much of exclusionary situation based on upbringing etc , I see just a bunch of normal imperfect folk trying to get along with their lives as best they can ,and sharing the conclusions they arrive at.}

^Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Stosh.....
I have to say it again. You are an open-minded gentleman and a scholar......

[death2cowards]

Is Taoism as open to members of non-Chinese and non-East Asian races as, say, Christianity or Buddhism? Does Taoism have the ability to have a universal appeal?

 

Are there any prejudices against non-Chinese who are interested in Taoism, particularly in Chinese countries or communities? For example, do Westerners who have interest in Taoism find doors closed to them based upon their race? Say for example if a Westerner desired to join a Quanzhen monastic community, would there be any hesitation or desire to keep foreigners out by the Chinese?

 

Related to these questions is the folk religion aspect of Taoism. From what I understand, the separation between "religious" and "philosophical" Taoism is misrepresentation of the reality of Taoism as it is actually practiced. So for a Westerner who wishes to be a Taoist, would he have to venerate Guan Yu for example? Do all Chinese Taoists venerate Guan Yu or other such cultural heroes/gods or are there Chinese Taoists that simply focus on cultivation, meditation, and living in accordance with Taoist philosophy and virtues?

 

I ask because I wonder how "accepted" Westerners (assuming they become fluent in Mandarin) are by the Chinese Taoists. I also wonder because for me personally, I'd like to avoid the sort of New Age flavored "Neo-Taoism" and discover what authentic Taoism is, but I am not sure such a spiritual world is even open to non-Chinese (or non-East Asians.) I especially wouldn't like to impose on a community that doesn't want me or interfere with their harmony with my presence as I sincerely respect their spiritual quest.

 

Thanks for any information anyone can provide on these topics.

 

If you see yourself as a "westerner" and not just a "human being", do you think others will see you as just another "human being" and not just a "westerner"

 

If a society or organization can't get past its prejudices to see what kind of person you truly are, then do you think such a society or organization is worthy of your time in the first place?

 

The way I see it.. if a "westerner" is not accepted as a student of asian teachers.. then there must be two issues here..

 

first issue is that the "westerner" doesn't have sufficient redeeming qualities of being that teacher's student.. second issue is that the teacher is incapable of seeing past skin issues and thus not worthy of being the "westerner"'s teacher.. both issues clearing showing that the "westerner" shouldn't waste time with such a teacher anymore..

 

just to reveal something about asian societies here.. many asian teachers have no problem rejecting students of their own race and have done so on too many occasions.. "westerners" or "non-asians" shouldn't feel that they should be given special treatment just because they are of a different race color..

 

a truly enlightened teacher will see past any person's skin color to the person deep inside that particular human, regardless of his skin color..

[ChiDragon]

It was not the skin of the color. It is the main difference in thinking. Here is the way I see it. Most westerners have to tendency to tell their teachers what they knew already. Therefore, the teacher has to tell them what they want to hear. Otherwise, the teachers are all wrong.

[manno]

They say that it is your karma to be born as a member of a certain race.

 

The teachings of enlightenment have been hidden from non-asians for so long that non-asians find it difficult to accept that everything that non-asians have been taught by schools, parents, governments, universities ever since they were born run contrary to enlightenment.

 

Everything in the western society being propagated by the media, government, educational system, family, friends, spouses, neighbours run contrary to the true teachings of enlightenment.

 

Hell, as the whole world has been westernized, everything in the whole world nowadays being propagated by the media, government, educational system, family, friends, spouses, neighbours run contrary to the true teachings of enlightenment.

 

This is something which most westerners do not accept and can you fault asian teachers for rejecting westerner students because westerners refuse to let go of all their misguided concepts?

 

A great example of westerners rejecting the true teachings of enlightenment is how modern western society reject the concept of breatharianism. Too many breatharians have been deemed as outcasts because their lifestyles run contrary to the ways of modern western society yet all the great masters of enlightenment are breatharians.

So how can any westerner claim that Asian teachers are racist when it is the westerners who are racist towards Asian teachers for criticizing their wrong views?

 

It is like forcing the Asian teachers to change their way of thinking to suit the modern western mindset instead of the western student changing his mindset to become a being as evolved as the Asian teacher and that is just plain wrong.

Edited March 27, 2013 by manno

[ChiForce]

They say that it is your karma to be born as a member of a certain race.

 

The teachings of enlightenment have been hidden from non-asians for so long that non-asians find it difficult to accept that everything that non-asians have been taught by schools, parents, governments, universities ever since they were born run contrary to enlightenment.

 

Everything in the western society being propagated by the media, government, educational system, family, friends, spouses, neighbours run contrary to the true teachings of enlightenment.

 

Hell, as the whole world has been westernized, everything in the whole world nowadays being propagated by the media, government, educational system, family, friends, spouses, neighbours run contrary to the true teachings of enlightenment.

 

This is something which most westerners do not accept and can you fault asian teachers for rejecting westerner students because westerners refuse to let go of all their misguided concepts?

 

A great example of westerners rejecting the true teachings of enlightenment is how modern western society reject the concept of breatharianism. Too many breatharians have been deemed as outcasts because their lifestyles run contrary to the ways of modern western society yet all the great masters of enlightenment are breatharians.

 

So how can any westerner claim that Asian teachers are racist when it is the westerners who are racist towards Asian teachers for criticizing their wrong views?

 

It is like forcing the Asian teachers to change their way of thinking to suit the modern western mindset instead of the western student changing his mindset to become a being as evolved as the Asian teacher and that is just plain wrong.

Hahahah...racist???? Tao does not care. One needs enough merits to be taught of the way of the Tao and enlightenment. To be taught either by a master or enlightenment being transmitted through the mind. There is no points to throw a tantrum on the issue of race because the Tao does not care. If you are Chinese, you do have the advantage of sharing the same cultural experiences with many of the Taoist sages.

 

I would also be weary about the term Western or Christian. Christianity was forced and imposed on Europe. Europeans, depending on which part Europe you are from, do have their own pagan identities. And obviously, I do dream about the Norse Gods and particularly fond of the Nibelungenlied.

[manno]

Hahahah...racist???? Tao does not care. One needs enough merits to be taught of the way of the Tao and enlightenment. To be taught either by a master or enlightenment being transmitted through the mind. There is no points to throw a tantrum on the issue of race because the Tao does not care. If you are Chinese, you do have the advantage of sharing the same cultural experiences with many of the Taoist sages.

 

I would also be weary about the term Western or Christian. Christianity was forced and imposed on Europe. Europeans, depending on which part Europe you are from, do have their own pagan identities. And obviously, I do dream about the Norse Gods and particularly fond of the Nibelungenlied.

 

Sir, you are right. The Tao is Universal and doesn't care about race. There are even ET races from other civilizations, other planets and even other dimensions who have achieved Enlightenment. In fact, Enlightenment is the standard in other higher civilizations. If you are not Enlightened, then you are not considered to be a responsible adult and will be denied certain rights and privileges and be treated like a child.

 

So the OP is wrong in starting this thread for he has failed to look beyond the petty issues of skin color to the real truth that is this Universe. The real Enlightened Asian Teacher has plenty of contact with Higher Advanced ET races and gods so if he can put down his ego to get into contact with beings from other planets, other civilizations and other dimensions, do you think that he will have any issues with dealing with enlightened people from other human races if they are indeed qualified to do so?

 

This is the major reason why the ETs are still not showing their faces yet. Because most Westerners and most people on this planet as well, are too proud to realize that their entire life is a fraud, that their government, their universities, their schools, their parents, spouses, friends, neighbors, church clergy, etc have been teaching them the wrong thing. The egos of most Westerners are too strong to accept the fact that they have been fed the wrong information right from day 1 and if the ETs and other Gods show up, the Westerners will just shoot at them with their guns.

 

At least the Asians will be humble enough to prostate themselves before the ETs and other Gods. The Westerners especially the Americans will just shoot at ETs and Gods with their guns and this will result in major Armageddon for the planet.

Edited March 27, 2013 by manno

[manno]

I would also be weary about the term Western or Christian. Christianity was forced and imposed on Europe. Europeans, depending on which part Europe you are from, do have their own pagan identities. And obviously, I do dream about the Norse Gods and particularly fond of the Nibelungenlied.

 

Enlightenment is bloody Universal. It is not just an Earthly concept., There are plenty of Western sages who have been enlightened as well. Socrates and Plato of the Greek tradition are just as enlightened as Lao Tzu, the Knight Templars are enlightened beings as well.

 

Even some western christian churches around the world teach the real teachings of enlightenment. For eg the International Community of Christ is an independent christian tradition that teach the real teachings of enlightenment (the same as what Jesus taught when he was alive and not the Vatican crap handed down by the Vatican devil worshipers) around the world and they have an especially strong presence in the West. Their HQ is in the US for that matter.

 

http://jamilian.org/

 

So why is the International Community of Christ just a minor faction in the West and yet the Vatican, the Church of Rome which has conquered and burned down the teachings of enlightenment in Ancient Greece, killed off Jesus and the Enlightened School which he belongs to the Essenes, killed off the Knight Templars as well because they are seeking to spread the teachings of enlightenment through being a spiritually pure warrior of God..

 

Why are the Vatican Devil Worshippers the major christian/catholic faction in the West and yet the International Community of Christ, which teaches the True Teachings of Jesus and Enlightenment, remains just a minor faction?

 

This is because most "Westerners" are not ready for the True Teachings of Enlightenment and the True Teachings of God! Most "Westerners" prefer to follow the Dark and Fake Teachings of the Fake Bible written by the Vatican and yet ignore the True Teachings of Jesus being propagated by one of the few True Churches of Enlightenment in the West,, the International Community of Christ!

Edited March 27, 2013 by manno

[manno]

The Vatican has destroyed many major schools of enlightenment in the West over the centuries.

 

The Essenses, The Knight Templars, The Greeks, Even some of the Orthodox Churches which have secretly hidden the True Teachings of Jesus Christ have been destroyed by the Vatican.

 

Why do you think there is this current fiasco during the last few years in the Greece, Turkey, Cyprus region?

 

Think about it.

[manno]

If the Westerners even ignore one of the few True Churches of Enlightenment in the West, the International Community of Christ, where the Teachers are just as Westernized as the Westerners themselves, do you think the Asian Teachers are gonna open their arms to such idiots?

 

I can tell you right now.. Most enlightened Asian Teachers have rejected far more Asian Student Wannabes than Western Student Wannabes.. don't you "Westerners" go around thinking you are special and if an Asian Teacher rejects you, it must be because of your skin color.. it is not..

 

So it has never been a question of racism. It is only a matter of letting go of your own misguided and ignorant ego and surrender yourself to the True Teachings of Enlightenment, the True Teachings of God.

[ChiForce]

I also want to point out that, based on my own experiences, you can learn the way of the Tao without being physically taught of the ways. It can come to you through your dreams. As long as you live a righteous life and follows the 4 noble truths and the eightfold paths, the way to the Tao would appear before you. Keeps on exhausting the Skandha of forms until you are no longer giving meanings to forms and appearances. Since Tao is universal, it can reach to anyone in anywhere if it chooses to.

Edited March 28, 2013 by ChiForce

[manno]

I also want to point out that, based on my own experiences, you can learn the way of the Tao without being physically taught of the ways. It can come to you through your dreams. As long as you live a righteous life and follows the 4 noble truths and the eightfold paths, the way to the Tao would appear before you. Keeps on exhausting the Skandha of forms until you are no longer giving meanings to forms and appearances. Since Tao is universal, it can reach to anyone in anywhere if it chooses to.

 

I wish I can like your post a Million Times.

[Kongming]

The teachings of enlightenment have been hidden from non-asians for so long that non-asians find it difficult to accept that everything that non-asians have been taught by schools, parents, governments, universities ever since they were born run contrary to enlightenment.

 

Everything in the western society being propagated by the media, government, educational system, family, friends, spouses, neighbours run contrary to the true teachings of enlightenment.

 

Hell, as the whole world has been westernized, everything in the whole world nowadays being propagated by the media, government, educational system, family, friends, spouses, neighbours run contrary to the true teachings of enlightenment.

 

 

I'll have to take fault with this. Enlightenment hasn't been hidden from Westerners, neither in the ancient world or the Christian era. Take for example Pythagoras, the pre-Socratics, Plato, and Plotinus. Actually Neoplatonism in its essence close to being the same to both Vedanta, Taoism, Buddhism, etc. Among the Christians, read the works of Pseudo-Dionysius, Meister Eckhart, the Cloud of Unknowing, Nicholas of Cusa, the Philokalia, or the Greek hesychastic tradition. There was also an esoteric Hermetic/alchemic tradition existing in Western soil from the ancient world until the Renaissance and beyond.

 

We also have to differentiate between the modern West and the pre-modern West. The modern West has largely gone astray through Nominalism and Enlightenment era thought which further and further denied or veiled the spiritual and led us to our modern, materialistic, and largely atheistic world-view. However even throughout this time there were enlightened individuals in the Western world and among the Orthodox Christians in Mt. Athos, Russia, etc.

 

While the West has gone astray spiritually and seems to be affecting the whole world, this isn't because of some qualities inherent in Western people or civilization but rather through the process of decline noted in the traditional doctrine of ages. The Hindu Kali-Yuga, Hesiod's Iron Age, the Twilight of the Gods in Norse tradition, Mappo in Buddhism, the decline from the Golden Age in Taoism where humanity all knew Tao, the Fall of Man in Christian tradition, etc. These are all manifestations and understandings of a historical process that is affecting the entire globe.

 

It is interesting to note that a process that took the West some 5 centuries or more to reach the spiritual decline and anti-spiritual attitudes we see today, many Eastern countries had this process occur in a much shorter time. China, for example, went from a traditional civilization (Qing) to a Marxist atheistic society in a matter of decades. This reveals that this process of spiritual decline isn't the unique product of the West, but rather a global trend that has been growing in almost every society. It just seems that the West is the cause because they were the first to reach this terminal point.

 

That is why the ability to find true spiritual masters, wherever they are today, is an extreme blessing and something to be cherished. I also think a dualistic attitude of us vs. them or Asian vs. European is wrong, rather we should see the picture is those who understand metaphysical and spiritual Truths whatever their culture or race vs. those who don't and wish to destroy any remnants of spirituality that are left.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Kongming

[gendao]

Is Taoism as open to members of non-Chinese and non-East Asian races as, say, Christianity or Buddhism? Does Taoism have the ability to have a universal appeal?

I would say that Taoism is far less racist than YHWH & Christianity - an intolerant deity who proclaimed one sole ethnicity his "chosen" ones - and angrily committed ethnic-cleansing genocide & kicked others off their land in favor of them. Who were then also forbidden from marrying these others - who were to be destroyed.

1 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

 

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

 

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

 

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

 

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

 

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

 

23 But the Lord thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

 

24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.

Donations (10% tithing) for their noble cause are aggressively solicited and welcome from all races, though!

[Kongming]

I would say that Taoism is far less racist than YHWH & Christianity - an intolerant deity who proclaimed one sole ethnicity his "chosen" ones - and angrily committed ethnic-cleansing genocide & kicked others off their land in favor of them. Who were then also forbidden from marrying these others - who were to be destroyed.

Donations (10% tithing) for their noble cause are aggressively solicited and welcome from all races, though!

 

Old Testament Judaic religion and the New Testament/the way Christianity was actually practiced were far different. The chosen people of God according to traditional Christian theology isn't a ethnic group of people (the Jews covenant with God being broken with the incarnation and their subsequent rejection and crucifixion of Christ), but rather the mystical body of Christ on Earth, ie the Church and the Christian community, which was open to anyone.

 

What you are describing is to be applied more to, again, Old Testament Judaic religion and its later developments in Rabbinical Judaism or Talmudism, where the Jews are still considered the chosen people of God.

 

Either way, I don't think we should turn this into a debate about Christianity vs. Taoism. I just asked the question because, historically, Taoism predominately is obviously associated with the Chinese people and finds influences in the Sinosphere/East Asian world, thereby being bound up with a particular ethnic or racial group for most of its history. I merely contrasted this with Christianity and Buddhism which historically has been more ethnically diverse and universal. I wasn't attempting to imply that Taoism can't be universal, but was rather trying to see what the opinions of the Chinese were toward non-Chinese, non-East Asian Taoists.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Kongming

[Wu Ming Jen]

Kongming I agree 2500 years ago the world view was polar complete east and west just like Taoist philosophy the Greek movement of absolute fragment philosophy of Socrates won the war of world view changing to absolute fragment from polar complete, which western civilization is built upon. I have studied in China on Wudang Mountain, The Taoist academy now welcomes foreigners to study. One out of a hundred will make it no matter what race. When we put opposites in two separate and opposing groups with no relationship between each other that is friction and it will wear out. the Greek philosophy is harmful to humans they were looking for a supernatural second world not looking out for human needs.Humans were made the lower world not able to understand. that power was given to god, In god we trust makes humans not responsible any more. What a bunch of cowards looking for the easy way out, Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is harmful. Knowledge that benefits all beings is a blessing, man is the measure of all things not a pretend second world, so while the west had gods doing stuff to humans and the world around them the east simply observed and nature gave the empirical natural laws, so now days modern astrology is the Chinese system from BC, Quantum physics is the only form of western science that comes close to Taoist science today remarkable

[Kongming]

Kongming I agree 2500 years ago the world view was polar complete east and west just like Taoist philosophy the Greek movement of absolute fragment philosophy of Socrates won the war of world view changing to absolute fragment from polar complete, which western civilization is built upon. I have studied in China on Wudang Mountain, The Taoist academy now welcomes foreigners to study. One out of a hundred will make it no matter what race. When we put opposites in two separate and opposing groups with no relationship between each other that is friction and it will wear out. the Greek philosophy is harmful to humans they were looking for a supernatural second world not looking out for human needs.Humans were made the lower world not able to understand. that power was given to god, In god we trust makes humans not responsible any more. What a bunch of cowards looking for the easy way out, Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is harmful. Knowledge that benefits all beings is a blessing, man is the measure of all things not a pretend second world, so while the west had gods doing stuff to humans and the world around them the east simply observed and nature gave the empirical natural laws, so now days modern astrology is the Chinese system from BC, Quantum physics is the only form of western science that comes close to Taoist science today remarkable

 

Western Civilization means many different things. In the ancient Classic Western world, there was no uniform philosophical system of thought that was predominate. The Greek mystery religions, Platonism, Neoplatonism, ancient alchemy, and so forth all offered the possibility of the One Knowledge that has been available in every true sacred tradition. What the Buddhists call enlightenment, the Taoists understand as knowing the Tao, the Hindus call moksha or self-realization, etc. was also available to the ancient Western world.

 

Traditional Christianity (Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), which later came to be associated with Western civilization, also offered this possibility through divinization/deification/theosis/Beatific vision. Again, give Meister Eckhart, Pseudo Dionysius, or the Cloud of Unknowing a read and I think you'll find the similarities between East and West striking. The Cloud of Unknowing is almost a "Zen" text.

 

Western civilization went astray with the rise of humanism, nominalism, and Enlightenment era thought. This process begins in the later Middle Ages and the Renaissance, but doesn't really speed up to how we understand it now until the late 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. It was during this time that spirituality and pure metaphysics were largely given up in favor of what the West is famously known for, ie rationalism, the exaltation of natural science divorced from a sacred science, and later anti-spiritualism and even atheism.

 

There is no denying that the East kept their traditions intact longer, but it is a shame that today it seems the East as a whole is moving away from spirituality and conforming with the times. Kali-Yuga.

[ChiForce]

Kongming I agree 2500 years ago the world view was polar complete east and west just like Taoist philosophy the Greek movement of absolute fragment philosophy of Socrates won the war of world view changing to absolute fragment from polar complete, which western civilization is built upon. I have studied in China on Wudang Mountain, The Taoist academy now welcomes foreigners to study. One out of a hundred will make it no matter what race. When we put opposites in two separate and opposing groups with no relationship between each other that is friction and it will wear out. the Greek philosophy is harmful to humans they were looking for a supernatural second world not looking out for human needs.Humans were made the lower world not able to understand. that power was given to god, In god we trust makes humans not responsible any more. What a bunch of cowards looking for the easy way out, Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is harmful. Knowledge that benefits all beings is a blessing, man is the measure of all things not a pretend second world, so while the west had gods doing stuff to humans and the world around them the east simply observed and nature gave the empirical natural laws, so now days modern astrology is the Chinese system from BC, Quantum physics is the only form of western science that comes close to Taoist science today remarkable

Not a big fan of the Greek philosophy. Let alone Christianity. I don't know, I think there is something lacking with the traditional Greek philosophy...the spiritual sense. Of course, look at the Euro crisis, Greece, and Cyprus. I mean, shouldn't one's nation be a testament to the success of the culture and philosophy?

[gendao]

Old Testament Judaic religion and the New Testament/the way Christianity was actually practiced were far different. The chosen people of God according to traditional Christian theology isn't a ethnic group of people (the Jews covenant with God being broken with the incarnation and their subsequent rejection and crucifixion of Christ), but rather the mystical body of Christ on Earth, ie the Church and the Christian community, which was open to anyone.

 

What you are describing is to be applied more to, again, Old Testament Judaic religion and its later developments in Rabbinical Judaism or Talmudism, where the Jews are still considered the chosen people of God.

What I am talking about is the character of the same head cult leader (YHWH) of both the Old & New Testaments (who presumably didn't change from one to the next) - which is really what defines the cult. And his "chosen" bloodline is not only "ethnic," but familial even - as descendants of Isaac.

A prominent feature of the biblical texts is also the explanation of tribal origins through various genealogies. Thus, the Israelites (the twelve tribes of Israel) see themselves as the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham. In contrast, groups like the Ishmaelites and Edomites (to the south and southeast of the Israelites) are said to be descendants of Abraham's other children

This is why there is such an anal preoccupation with genetic family trees in the Bible...As A begat B begat C, etc.. Point being - Christianity is tribally racist at its very core. I mean, when a "religious" text explicitly advocates the extermination of specific competing tribes over the eternal preservation of its own - that would probably be labeled as extremist radicalism today..

 

 

Anyhow, I think the basics and even high intermediate Taoist teachings are fairly accessible today to anyone (although there may still be inevitable language & cultural barriers). That should already be enough to keep most busy training on their own for years or more. Much of Taoist practice is done at an ultramarathon pace off on your own, and that is more likely where the bottlenecks will be.

4. You guys have read too many novels and fanciful stories. Breaking your arm to learn Buddhism? Jumping in the ice river or off the top floor when I don't meet you? Kneeling until I meet you? That is psychological blackmail. Is this reasonable to common sense? Are you really learning Buddhism? Why do you use such threatening measures? It's self deception. I'm a 90 year old man. Why do you have to threaten an old man to learn the Tao? You guys are cultivated intellectuals, how can you do something like this?

 

6. You think that once you have a teacher you will become a Buddha? If you experience the esoteric knowledge in person you will reach the Tao? That's ridiculous. You guys always talk about saving others and building merit. Your own life is a mess! Start from becoming a normal person. Get a real job. Be plain and simple and do things by the rules. Don't blame heaven or people. Only using self-reflection and living a honest life is the foundation of merit. Otherwise you will just become a slacker with fanciful dreams and a burden to society. Cultivation begins with changing your psychology and habits, with meditation as mere support. Merit is the beginning of wisdom.

 

7. You want to become a buddha after learning from me? I'm 90 already, and I still haven't seen a real Buddha or immortal yet. Stop being superstitious. All the books I wrote are only book knowledge and intellectual. Don't get tricked by those books. Lwen Yu Summary is my main effort. There are many places to learn Zen. Go over there to meditate. I'ver never promoted Buddhism. When I did have Zen classes, those were just organized by colleges, and the people were screened vigorously. We just did some research together. Afterwards, everyone still had to go back to live normal lives, to rub against the difficulties of life to strengthen their heart, and to improve their habits. Everyone must walk their own paths.

You want help from other people? Help yourself! If you really believe in cause and effect, start by using proper motivation and personal inspection is the intelligent way to begin. This is cultivation's heart. Your eyes are always looking outward, blaming heaven and earth, relying on gurus and saints and teachers to worship. This is self-deception and playing a joke on the world.

Taoist teachers often train on their own too, integrating their practice in their own lives. So, there is generally no concerted effort to commercialize and organize group classes. The Taoist "wei wu wei" is more to let water seek its own level and rely upon ming & yuanfen to find its course. An "Old School" teacher may carefully select his student(s), and not vice-versa. And this could be a very personal and situational choice, based upon the higher wisdom of intuition or dreams (not tuition fees).

 

IOW, the Tao would supercede and transcend even the "rule of law" or nepotism.

 

Could race work for, against or be irrelevant in any particular individual's case? That would probably depend more upon your own program-ming - than Taoism or any teachers...

Edited March 28, 2013 by vortex