Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted October 30, 2014 Oh No!!! You have given the rocks in my rock collection a mind of their own. I better go talk with them right now so that we have a firm understanding. I've done nothing of the sort, their minds preceed the minds of all organic life forms They're the oldest minds on Earth. (think about it) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 30, 2014 I've done nothing of the sort, their minds preceed the minds of all organic life forms They're the oldest minds on Earth. (think about it) No, I'm sorry but that is beyond consideration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fate Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) I wish I remember which talk it was, but Alan Watts had some great insights on consciousness and materiality. He said you can look at it one of two ways, either its all material and energy, bouncing off each other in a deterministic fashion and here we are at the end of the process, an extremely complex 'material' brain that you (Marble) would agree has consciousness. So where did this consciousness start? Since we agree that living things such as plants have consciousness. Weren't we all made from the same 'stuff' all from the same star dust? An Alan Watts thing to do is to follow your logic all the way to its end. When exactly did 'consciousness' arise? With organic organisms? Out of nowhere? Out of nothingness? Isn't it more logical to see that the most simple awareness, pure awareness, is what was at the beginning and it began to divide and evolve into more and more complex forms? In this way we see the process of things. Then why can't you reverse your thinking? Just as we are beings of extremely complex matter and rocks are much more simple and ancient, can't we be a very complex form of consciousness, and rocks are just a simplistic form of this? Now Watts said both views are perfectly fine, you can have it either way (see his notion of the prickly people and the gooey people).Its just the benefit of the latter view, the animistic view, is there is more 'kinship' in your worldview. It is a bit warmer to move about your day feeling connected to all things in this way, which is all universal consciousness really is. That at the heart of anything is this awareness, and this awareness connects all of us and is merely focused in different forms. Edited July 24, 2015 by Fate 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fate Posted July 24, 2015 Anyway back on topic, as I am sure people are interested in the opinion of Fate on Free Will ;P Our lives really comes down to patterns, I prefer to look at these in terms of energetic patterns or spiritual story patterns etc. because it forms the basis of energy medicine. This is why you often see people going around in cycles, they move to a new city for a 'fresh start' and before you know it-since they haven't changed- they are hanging around the same types, falling in love with the same woman, getting arrested for the same troubles. Now once we become "awake" to these cycles, we can break free of them. We can 'write' our own story and consciously decide the kind of life we want to live. Surely enough, since the shift has taken place at an energetic level, the story of our life will eventually fit the story we envisioned. Now existentialists saw this and they stopped there. It was all meaningless! We had the burden of freedom, to create and design endless projects for ourselves because we have this free will! But its all for nothing, signifying nothing, with no unifying concept. This is where Taoism fits in beautifully. "Allow your life to unfold to perfection" -DDJ. This Tao is a guiding force in my life, pulling me gently along toward certain events that I can either face to break a cycle or continue to sleep through. Like all Taoist approaches, we see that even Fate vs. Free will the answer lies exactly in the middle. This force, Tao, or Love, or God, or whatever is what draws us all together back to a focal point of consciousness. Now this is in the incredibly long run, cosmic scale of things, where we see of course there cannot be Free Will. To focus this down in our day to day life, we begin to move in harmony with this love and so find fulfillment in every step. We focus on opportunities where we can consciously choose, and let the Tao take care of the details. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 24, 2015 I don't believe free will is free, so every morning I take a $5 bill, roll it up and say to the powers that be 'This is for ending my causal links and giving me free will today' and toss the money high into the air. That way I know I'll have free will for what ever nonsense I choose. Plus if the money falls back down I figure the PTB don't want it and I pocket it back up. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 24, 2015 I wish I remember which talk it was, but Alan Watts had some great insights on consciousness and materiality. He said you can look at it one of two ways, either its all material and energy, bouncing off each other in a deterministic fashion and here we are at the end of the process, an extremely complex 'material' brain that you (Marble) would agree has consciousness. Yep. You have me on the proper side of the point of balance. I have factual support for my view. I see no acceptable support for the other side. That's the bottom line for me. We can imagine (almost) anything. For it to become a materialistic reality is a little bit harder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 24, 2015 Good post except for this, IMO: where we see of course there cannot be Free Will. You used the example of a person moving to another city in order to make changes but as they didn't make changes they really didn't change anything. Therefore I suggest that the person did not exercise their free will to change anything about themself. And while this is understandable, I think it is unacceptable. If we can change something and opt to no do so we have exercised our free will. Doing nothing is easier than doing something. Just be lazy and flow with the flow. No need to swim. No need to beware of the waterfall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 24, 2015 I don't believe free will is free, That's because its not. The cost is accepting responsibility for all our thoughts, words, and deeds? Think you can handle this? You may practice free will. Too much to ask? Then accept your destiny. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fate Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) I definitely agree that you can become conscious and have a great deal of influence on how your life unfolds (Free will). The part of the post you disagreed with was me talking on a much larger and cosmic scale. Can we agree that the fate of the universe is just that, and there is no free will in the sense that we cannot choose to avoid this fate. Edited July 25, 2015 by Fate 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 25, 2015 I definitely agree that you can become conscious and have a great deal of influence on how your life unfolds (Free will). The part of the post you disagreed with was me talking on a much larger and cosmic scale. Can we agree that the fate of the universe is just that, and there is no free will in the sense that we cannot choose to avoid this fate. That's not fair - tricking me into agreeing with you. Hehehe. But sure, at the macro level I would agree with you. To suggest otherwise would imply an external consciousness controlling things. The Laws of Physics (as we currently understand them) are pretty reliable. Sit under an apple tree when the apples are maturing and there's a pretty good chance we will get bonked on the head. I will always agree that our free will is limited by many factors. Some have more limiters than do others. But if I go about willing myself to fly I will have made a gross error. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThisLife Posted July 25, 2015 We have to believe in free will. We’ve got no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 25, 2015 We have to believe in free will. We’ve got no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer Seems that some here on this board would disagree with that. I agree, of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThisLife Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Seems that some here on this board would disagree with that. I agree, of course. Every now and then I take a snifter through few thread topics on this forum that catch my attention. Obviously I'm interested in all these 'spiritual questions', (for want of a better term) - yet after reading a number of often very well expressed but completely different points of view, on no matter what topic one decides to open up,.... I always end up thinking that for me, the closest any person has come to putting out true answers to all these questions without end, is a union of the following two quotes that Wayne Liquorman made in various talks he gives. All I know is that for me, his explanation eases the frustration of all these never-ending questions such as 'What is reality ?', 'What is Truth ?', 'How should I best fulfill my human potential ? 'How can I attain Enlightenment ?' etc., etc., etc. Maybe his ideas will say something to you,.... (or perhaps you simply enjoy all the pleasures of social chit chat with a spiritual flavour ? It's not a half bad pastime, after all) * * Silence may be the purest medium For the transmission of truth. But it makes for Damned short books And awful dinner parties. * * When the understanding comes, it is always intuitive and instantaneous. In fact, this whole process of seeking is just designed to keep us busy while we’re waiting for something to happen. * Edited July 26, 2015 by ThisLife 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
