Freedom, free will, causality and chaos

[idiot_stimpy]

LOL good one steve.

 

If I truly had free will I wouldn't be constrained to this body.

[woodcarver]

Them thar be deep thoughts.

 

What really caught my attention was your use of the word "chaos". (We likely agree regarding cause and effect.)

 

But chaos, yeah, that is interesting when included in a discussion of "free will".

 

We really have no idea when our "free will" plans of effecting cause and effect will be shattered by some unforeseen chaotic event. And yes, there are many chaotic events that occur in our life. That's when we say, "Shit happens."

 

This is where we must learn to let go of those things we cannot control.

Maybe there are no events or even "balance" to explain why shit happens.

[Mystique Enigma]

Freedom is not being tied down to ones mindset, ones belief .....

[idiot_stimpy]

Freedom is not being tied down to ones mindset, ones belief .....

 

 

What happens if I am not conscious of my own mindset or beliefs? They are unconscious and dictate my actions...

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Free Will:
Free to cultivate or spend as much Qi as you are Willing to endure (cultivation or expenditure of).
Every action both uses Qi from the self, and channels Qi from the environment. It is your choice as to weather or not you would pursue Qi reserves, or simply act as a conduit.

Free Will is the ability to make a choice, regardless of limitations or circumstances, it still comes down to the unrestricted decision making that all bodies have (animate and inanimate alike).


A body has limitations. All bodies do. Within the limitations of the vessil, all individual bodies have the freedom of choice to pursue any available activity that their limitations permit.


A stone does as a stone does by willful choice, a bird does as a bird does by willful choice. As humans, our conscious awareness of Free Will enables us to study this phenomenon and refine our decision-making.
By and large, we "just dont", and go about our daily lives WITHOUT a free will, simply automating and putting responsibility for our lives in the hands of the state.

"we" are retarded in our association with Free Will.

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure about a stone having free will but that's another topic (for people who get stoned).

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

consciousness permeates all matter and energy without exception or exclusion. Therefore all particulate matter and energy, all shapes, structures, tools, forms, cells, organs, and bodies must have individual free will - all within the capacity of the complexity of the particulate matter/energy shape/structure.

[Marblehead]

The furthest I will go with that is to say that Chi (energy) permeates all matter. I don't accept the concept of universal consciousness.

[The Tao Of Alex]

Interesting post. I've discussed and listened to discussions for and against free will et al. The best(in my mind) answer I've heard is this analogy: 'We are dealt a hand of cards(determinism), It's up to us, how we play those cards(free will).'

Hope this doesn't muddy the waters...

Alex

[Marblehead]

Nope, doesn't muddy the waters at all for me. I have heard that statement before and have no problem with it.

 

And it is true, we have no control over to whom and in what conditions we are born into.

 

It is only years later when we have the power to walk a path of our own choosing. And really, many never gain that power. All their choices are made by someone else.

[FmAm]

I've discussed and listened to discussions for and against free will et al. The best(in my mind) answer I've heard is this analogy: 'We are dealt a hand of cards(determinism), It's up to us, how we play those cards(free will).'

Hope this doesn't muddy the waters...

Alex

I have to admit the waters have always been quite muddy to me. I guess the best one can do is to contemplate on the question of free will. Sometimes I think free will exists, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I don't think about free will at all. And I guess not thinking about it is just as good as thinking about it.

Edited October 21, 2014 by FmAm

[ThisLife]

I have to admit the waters have always been quite muddy to me. I guess the best one can do is to contemplate on the question of free will. Sometimes I think free will exists, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I don't think about free will at all. And I guess not thinking about it is just as good as thinking about it.

 

Are you a disciple of that famous, (but anonymous) teacher who first set the spiritual world rocking with his statement,...

 

"Sometimes I sits and thinks. And sometimes I just sits" ??

 

.

[iain]

I like to make the analogy to sailing a boat; We have free will to sail wherever we like, but if we don't understand the elements it is going to be tough, tides charts stars sun moon almanac. We can sail up wind and against the tide, but you had better have learned well before doing so.
One hand on the tiller the other on the main sheet, and you are free to do what ever you like ...

Did you first check the weather, the stars and the charts, how much water do you have?

The bhagavadgita makes the analogy to a chariot and horses with a passenger, in a war against ones own senses and self; I shall not eloborate here.

[Marblehead]

Reminded me of Chuang Tzu saying that (paraphrase) we cannot float a large ship in a small puddle of water.

[iain]

I was thinking more along the lines of drinking water, but that is a very good point; draft is a vital consideration!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The furthest I will go with that is to say that Chi (energy) permeates all matter. I don't accept the concept of universal consciousness.

 

Qi/chi is conscious in and of itself though... your own argument beats itself.

[Marblehead]

 

Qi/chi is conscious in and of itself though... your own argument beats itself.

Yes, I know. There will always be someone to disagree with me concerning this concept. But I have seen no evidence to cause me to believe it to be so - just like I have seen no evidence to cause me to believe that there are gods.

 

I am a Materialist. There are many Spiritualists here who agree with you.

 

And I do not equate Chi with Consciousness, I equate it with "energy".

[iain]

Yes, I know. There will always be someone to disagree with me concerning this concept. But I have seen no evidence to cause me to believe it to be so - just like I have seen no evidence to cause me to believe that there are gods.

 

I am a Materialist. There are many Spiritualists here who agree with you.

 

And I do not equate Chi with Consciousness, I equate it with "energy".

 

Perhaps, you are confusing conciousness with ego?

 

Ego can be possessed in the tradition in materialist idioms and doctrine, for example; " so and so owned so and so, in that conversation"; The universe certainly has no ego. Conciousness just is, and it is aware of that which it is not because it is seeking that.

 

How else would a flower follow the sun?

Edited October 28, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

Well shit!

 

Excellent questions.

 

No, I'm not equating consciousness with ego.

 

However, your last question caught my attention because I have never viewed the flower following the sun as a form of consciousness even though it truly is. But then, a flower (its plant and all) is a living thing. Different from a rock which is not a living thing.

 

So if someone were to say "all living things possess consciousness" I would likely not argue with the statement. And even if someone were to suggest that all living things have "ego" I would likely not argue against that either.

 

Some argue that the universe is a living organism. I don't hold to this understanding. Yes, it is dynamic, constantly changing. But alive? No.

[iain]

Well shit!

 

Excellent questions.

 

No, I'm not equating consciousness with ego.

 

However, your last question caught my attention because I have never viewed the flower following the sun as a form of consciousness even though it truly is. But then, a flower (its plant and all) is a living thing. Different from a rock which is not a living thing.

 

So if someone were to say "all living things possess consciousness" I would likely not argue with the statement. And even if someone were to suggest that all living things have "ego" I would likely not argue against that either.

 

Some argue that the universe is a living organism. I don't hold to this understanding. Yes, it is dynamic, constantly changing. But alive? No.

 

Might I urge that whilst considering a rock; you include both the fossil and the time frame and temperature (all of which are tattva); by time frame I mean think large, the time scale of the Gods ...

 

The passage of molten lava from within the earth's core en-route from either the expanding cracks in the ocean bed or a bubbling volcano. Upon its passage to return to the sea bed by way of sand and or desert dust; entropy if you will humour me that; Just as the water cycle occurs on land, this cycle is happening in currents under the mantle; A posses by which precious stones are formed, the structure of which is of course crystalline.

Now the humble quarts is quite a fascinating rock; its vibration gives the structure upon which most every electronic device today functions, permitting the carriage of the signal upon which we are now communicating.

 

To think of a rock as being simply a rock, is to put it in a box with a label upon it; this is not knowledge of the rock.

 

 

This is why we find fossil Ammonites in the Himalayas; I wonder, does the rock hold a memory of the sea?

Edited October 29, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

Might I urge that whilst considering a rock; ...

 

...

 

To think of a rock as being simply a rock, is to put it in a box with a label upon it; this is not knowledge of the rock.

 

 

First, I must say that I have no problem with what you said in this post.

 

However,

 

There was a short phase in my life when I pretended I was a rock collector. I bought a good book before taking a trip around the US to include the northern border area of Mexico and the southern border of Canada. I collected many rocks a did my best to identify them properly.

 

I agree that all "fossils" were at one point in time living things. Past tense - were.

 

I still have the rocks I collected. They haven't gone anywhere, haven't grown or changed in any way noticeable to me. They are still sitting in the case I built to display them in.

 

None have spoken to me or given me any indication that they are alive. And as far as I know they don't party after I have gone to sleep at night.

 

On the other hand, yes, they contain information that we can use to determine what they were before becoming what they are. And yes, some contain information indicating that they contain parts of what were at some point in time living things.

 

But, the rocks themselves are not living things just as the music CD I recently burned is not alive even though it contains information.

 

 

Hehehe. How did we get into this discussion from discussing free will, and cause and effect?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yes, I know. There will always be someone to disagree with me concerning this concept. But I have seen no evidence to cause me to believe it to be so - just like I have seen no evidence to cause me to believe that there are gods.

 

I am a Materialist. There are many Spiritualists here who agree with you.

 

And I do not equate Chi with Consciousness, I equate it with "energy".

 

It's all balance; Yin and Yang: Material and spirit, body and mind, ego and conscience, energy and awareness.

 

You couldnt be materialistic without spiritual balance - even if materialism is to outright reject spirit, the spirit must exist to balance the matter.

 

Matter and energy are physics, consciousness and spirit are metaphysics. both must exist if either one exists.

 

You cannot have Everything(ness) without Nothing(ness).

 

 

The Qi flows where the attention goes; why is this, if qi is not aware?

[Marblehead]

Nice response. And I really don't want to disagree with you so I won't.

 

Well, except that I still suggest that a rock does not have consciousness.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Nice response. And I really don't want to disagree with you so I won't.

 

Well, except that I still suggest that a rock does not have consciousness.

 

A rock does not have the same intellectual expression as the human brain, but that does not exclude it from an aware conscious mind. It is simply alien to the common human to concieve of the mind of an inorganic body.

 

 

just as every individual body/structure is unique, so too are the associated minds.

[Marblehead]

Oh No!!! You have given the rocks in my rock collection a mind of their own. I better go talk with them right now so that we have a firm understanding.