Tao v. Wade

[manitou]

Well, about the whole of karmic cycle of the soul? What is the karmic of cycle of the soul of a fetus which was conceived against the will of the mother???

 

 

The soul would go back to the Soul Pool and wait until another appropriate circumstance to be born into; appropriate being 'what the soul needs to develop within its karmic cycle'. I don't think that the fact that it was conceived against the will of the mother makes your argument any stronger, Chi. Don't forget, the mother is a divine entity as well, whether she knows it or not.

[ChiDragon]

Humans do abide by a different set of standard. Human has to deal with Nature. All animals are part of Nature. Anything is not controllable by humans is considered to be the course of Nature. The concept of Wu Wei has no intent. Abortion has an intent to rid of a possible living being. Thus that is not Wu Wei.

If the mother bird wants to abandon a chick, it is out of the control of human. Thus, be definition, it is the course of Nature as far as human is concern. By the definitions of the Tao Te Ching, humans are the observer of Nature and learn to deal with Nature. Anything they do on earth will be effecting the Universe as a whole.

[Flolfolil]

you speak as if spiritual teachings = ultimate reality. They might not.

[oildrops]

.

Edited April 7, 2013 by oildrops

[manitou]

Humans do abide by a different set of standard. Human has to deal with Nature. All animals are part of Nature. Anything is not controllable by humans is considered to be the course of Nature. The concept of Wu Wei has no intent. Abortion has an intent to rid of a possible living being. Thus that is not Wu Wei.

 

If the mother bird wants to abandon a chick, it is out of the control of human. Thus, be definition, it is the course of Nature as far as human is concern. By the definitions of the Tao Te Ching, humans are the observer of Nature and learn to deal with Nature. Anything they do on earth will be effecting the Universe as a whole.

 

If a child is born into the world this is part of nature. As a child's mind develops this is part of nature. When the child becomes a teenager and becomes pregnant this is part of nature. If her developing mind makes a decision, is this not part of nature too?

 

The Tao treats us like straw dogs. This is not to say the Tao is intentionally unkind or ruthless, just that the rain falls equally upon everybody, regardless. I would never have had an abortion at my present state of evolution. But at 17 I thought it was my only decision because my fear of my father. that was my world at the time. If I stepped out of alignment of the Tao prior to having knowledge of the Tao, how does that fit in?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Well, about the whole of karmic cycle of the soul? What is the karmic of cycle of the soul of a fetus which was conceived against the will of the mother???

 

 

If there is any karma, it is to be inevitably incarnated as every victim you have ever created. period.

 

 

 

 

Were you Hitler?

 

You would have been every jew whom suffered that man too.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Humans do abide by a different set of standard. Human has to deal with Nature. All animals are part of Nature. Anything is not controllable by humans is considered to be the course of Nature. The concept of Wu Wei has no intent. Abortion has an intent to rid of a possible living being. Thus that is not Wu Wei.

 

If the mother bird wants to abandon a chick, it is out of the control of human. Thus, be definition, it is the course of Nature as far as human is concern. By the definitions of the Tao Te Ching, humans are the observer of Nature and learn to deal with Nature. Anything they do on earth will be effecting the Universe as a whole.

 

utter ridicule is warranted on account of your first sentence alone.

 

Duality found within nonduality is still not so black and white as to say humans are not natural beings! Citizens and Civilians are not natural beings, senators, officers, presidents, monarchs, and bankers, are not natural beings, but HUMANS, whom have the free will to walk any of those paths, are natural beings!

[ChiDragon]

Hi, all

I am straightly speaking from a philosophical view by the thoughts laid out in the Tao Te Ching. You see, Lao Tze had observed Nature and came up with the principles of the Universe. No one has his wisdom of thinking by trying to apply the universal principles to the human level. However, if some humans are not familiar with the principles of the Tao Te Ching will think otherwise.

[manitou]

Hi, all

 

I am straightly speaking from a philosophical view by the thoughts laid out in the Tao Te Ching. You see, Lao Tze had observed Nature and came up with the principles of the Universe. No one has his wisdom of thinking by trying to apply the universal principles to the human level. However, if some humans are not familiar with the principles of the Tao Te Ching will think otherwise.

 

 

I so agree that the world, in a state of perfect wu-wei, would be kind, gentle, loving. It would follow the beauty of nature to a tee. I do honestly think I have a grasp of the TTC, but I see the other side of it as well. I too am speaking from a philosophical view of the Tao.

 

Would you be kind enough to comment on the Straw Dog phenomenon, as it pertains to this conversation?

[Flolfolil]

I am straightly speaking from a philosophical view by the thoughts laid out in the Tao Te Ching. You see, Lao Tze had observed Nature and came up with the principles of the Universe. No one has his wisdom of thinking

They came up with their opinion. Not absolute fact.

[ChiDragon]

Okay, I have to take your word for it......

[Flolfolil]

Okay, I have to take your word for it......

You don't have to take my word for it. We can just agree to disagree

 

i am merely explaining my reasons why you aren't going to convince anyone of your way when they already feel the opposite way.

[ChiDragon]

I so agree that the world, in a state of perfect wu-wei, would be kind, gentle, loving. It would follow the beauty of nature to a tee. I do honestly think I have a grasp of the TTC, but I see the other side of it as well. I too am speaking from a philosophical view of the Tao.

 

Would you be kind enough to comment on the Straw Dog phenomenon, as it pertains to this conversation?

 

Yes, gladly...!!!

 

Chapter 5

01. Heaven and Earth have no mercy,

02. Treating all things as straw dogs.

03. Sages have no mercy,

04. Treating people as straw dogs.

05. In-between-Heaven-and-Earth

06. Is like a wind box,

07. Vacuous but inexhaustible,

08. When in motion, it produces more yet.

09. Excessive words accelerate failure.

10. Prefer to stay with vacuous quietness.

 

Annotation:

Line 1. No mercy implies "being impartial".

Line 2. Straw dog was used, in the ancient time, for ritual offering. It was significant, only, when it was placed at the altar. Otherwise, it may be placed in storage, tossed away, burnt, or stepped on. Thus Lao Tze used straw dog as a symbol of neutrality. Straw dog is not analogous to human rather it was used only to show impartiality. Impartiality is to have no mercy when a ruler has to make a judgement in a judicial matter. The metaphor here was to treat the people impartially with justice at all times.

Line 6. A Chinese "wind box" is similar to a bellows but much bigger and able to produce much more air going into a kiln.

 

Connotation:

Lao Tze said Heaven and Earth have no mercy by treating all things as straw dogs to indicate that Nature is impartial. Another words, when Nature strikes, lightning will strike any spot on Earth with no hesitation, flood will flush anything in its path. Nature will have no special favor for anything nor has feeling toward the good or the ugly. Hence, it was suggested that a ruler should follow the same principle in treating all the people equally as a government was concerned.

 

 

[manitou]

Your answer is wonderful - thank you!

 

I maintain that it doesn't just stop with what the rulers of old did, though. I think it pertains to the 'tao of human nature' as well. I think that MythMaker was onto something when he said there is no judgment, no right or wrong.

Edited April 7, 2013 by manitou

[3bob]

Chapter 5 is obviously only one of many, thus it's not the only modus-operandi pointed to in the TTC.

 

For instance at the end of chapter 13 we have:

 

"Hence, only he is willing to give his body for the sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.

Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being steward of the word."

 

I hear nothing in the words above that is aloof or indifferently impartial about such implications of following the Tao in what could be termed and judged as being right with the Tao... for when a steward acts with love they also have mercy that is beyond only the mechanical like or elementally impartial laws of things...

[manitou]

I hear nothing in the words above that is aloof or indifferently impartial about such implications of following the Tao in what could be termed and judged as being right with the Tao... for when a steward acts with love they also have mercy that is beyond only the mechanical like or elementally impartial laws of things...

 

 

3bob, could you expand a little on this statement? Not sure what you're saying...

[3bob]

Manitou, I'm not sure if I could be more straight-forward than that... ?

 

a tangent: the Tao (using the the sun analogy) may shine on both what could be called good and evil,

but "what is against the Tao will soon cease to be". (quote from chapter 30)

[ChiDragon]

Your answer is wonderful - thank you!

 

I maintain that it doesn't just stop with what the rulers of old did, though. I think it pertains to the 'tao of human nature' as well. I think that MythMaker was onto something when he said there is no judgment, no right or wrong.

 

I agree...!!! However, due to the limitation of words, only one principle can be placed per chapter. We wouldn't want to clutter all the thoughts in one place. Do we......???

 

 

PS....

Lao Tze had arranged only one thought per Chapter for easy understanding. This is why the Tao Te Ching has eighty-one simple chapters. Some chapters are interrelated. Some are independent but was referred by later Chapters.

Edited April 7, 2013 by ChiDragon

[manitou]

 

I agree...!!! However, due to the limitation of words, only one principle can be placed per chapter. We wouldn't want to clutter all the thoughts in one place. Do we......???

 

Only if we want to remove time....

 

 

3Bob - your sentence made my head explode. sorry.

Edited April 7, 2013 by manitou

[ChiDragon]

Only if we want to remove time....

 

How and what do you mean by that....??? I didn't see a time element which involved with that....!!!

[3bob]

why sorry and why exploding head?

[dawei]

The Straw Dogs are not so much about impartiality but about temporality and the eternal; thus the Whole. The bellows is empty, yet full; Dao is the empty mechanism which produces the ten thousand. Both sides are needed to understand the whole.

 

If one views the Straw dogs as impartial it is the same as viewing the bellows as empty; it misses the whole.

 

Huangdi was said to put Straw Dogs over the doors as effigies to ward off evil... If one focuses on Evil they only see half the picture; and they don't realize the temporality.

 

As to Dao and Abortion... I thought I just said it above. If one talks of impartiality then they miss the temporality; they miss the whole... Asking if Dao 'cares' is asking the wrong part of the whole which 'cares'. JMO.