Why matter holds its form.

[rene]

Ideas are surely perceived,...the Tao is impossible to perceive. All those who have truly realized the Tao, have gone beyond perception,...that is, beyond the 6 senses. It is 100% impossible to perceive the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

Buddha said, "the Tathagata does not come and go."

 

The 6 senses (perception) cannot perceive that which does not come and go,...perception can only perceive motion. All motion is illusion.

 

The Tao did not arise from a need to explain experiences,...nor did the Tathagata.

 

According to Avalokitesvara, and seconded by Sakyamuni,....hearing is the best way to uncover the Tao.

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara...Shurangama Sutra

 

Vmarco, hi, thanks for your reply (-:

 

If I may ask, all of the statements you posted, are they not all just someone's ideas?

 

Thanks!

[manitou]

The statement..."We are the movie projector projecting the movie"...can be confusing, and interpreted as ,..."We are the movie projector projecting the movie." This romantic notion that for duality to exist there must an individual observer, as if Bohr's Law implies that observers and the observed need a human connection,...that humans somehow effect things into perceived reality,..is insane.

 

 

It does sound insane to say that humans somehow effect things into perceived reality. But if one looks at it from the perspective of Oneness, it isn't. We are both the sensory organ for the One, and we are the mind of the One. The animating spirit within us is the spirit of creation, which is the Creator. We are measuring what we see through science; as though we are coming into awareness of Ourself, trying to define it, to describe it.

 

This is not to say that humans 'created' the universe per se. The spirit that dwells within us is the creator; that same spirit created the Oneness of the universe and our bodies; we are the reporters, the word-speakers, the idealizers. For some reason the Oneness that created all this wants it to evolve into something nice and apparently wants to describe it to itself.

 

Somehow the 'peeling the onion' phenomenon of uncovering one's own personality and getting down to the Loving Dweller Therein is tied in with the understanding of the perception of the universe. At first we are a pane of glass which needs cleaned; up to that point the light does not shine well through us. After the self-discovery process the light passes through us until finally it is brilliant.

 

As above, so below. the 'as above' part is this humongous structure of creation that we cannot see; the gravity, the timing; the vehicles that are used in the production of this marvel. The tendency toward Love is part of that structure we can't see. But it surely is there, and us humans can align ourselves perfectly with the loving part of the structure so as to stay in alignment with the natural way of things, or we can choose to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

 

Now, that truly is insanity.

Edited April 8, 2013 by manitou

[Vmarco]

Vmarco, hi, thanks for your reply (-:

 

If I may ask, all of the statements you posted, are they not all just someone's ideas?

 

Thanks!

 

No,...they are not someone's ideas. Ideas only arise from the 6 senses.

[Vmarco]

It does sound insane to say that humans somehow effect things into perceived reality. But if one looks at it from the perspective of Oneness, it isn't. We are both the sensory organ for the One, and we are the mind of the One. The animating spirit within us is the spirit of creation, which is the Creator. We are measuring what we see through science; as though we are coming into awareness of Ourself, trying to define it, to describe it.

 

This is not to say that humans 'created' the universe per se. The spirit that dwells within us is the creator; that same spirit created the Oneness of the universe and our bodies; we are the reporters, the word-speakers, the idealizers. For some reason the Oneness that created all this wants it to evolve into something nice and apparently wants to describe it to itself.

 

Somehow the 'peeling the onion' phenomenon of uncovering one's own personality and getting down to the Loving Dweller Therein is tied in with the understanding of the perception of the universe. At first we are a pane of glass which needs cleaned; up to that point the light does not shine well through us. After the self-discovery process the light passes through us until finally it is brilliant.

 

As above, so below. the 'as above' part is this humongous structure of creation that we cannot see; the gravity, the timing; the vehicles that are used in the production of this marvel. The tendency toward Love is part of that structure we can't see. But it surely is there, and us humans can align ourselves perfectly with the loving part of the structure so as to stay in alignment with the natural way of things, or we can choose to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

 

Now, that truly is insanity.

 

 

From the One, spirit (the in-breath/out-breath of perceived creation) arises. I don't view Spirit as Creator, but as a deCreating Force, that which shows us the way back to Source,...which Spirit is part of,...for neither the One, Spirit, nor Other (Yin-Yang) are part of Source, or the Tao.

 

No level of perception (that which arises from the 6 senses) can understand or observe the "way things are." Perception can only observe the world that surrounded us,...never, ever, the world that surrounds us

.

To better help this realization, love should be viewed relatively and absolutely,...absolute love is Unconditional,...thus, if there is any condition tagged with love, it is not absolute love. For example,...Spirit is a condition, and although Spirit may point to absolute love, Spirit is not absolute love.

 

"those desiring speedily to be

A refuge for themselves and other beings,

Should interchange the terms One and Other,

And thus embrace a sacred mystery."

[rene]

Vmarco, hi

No,...they are not someone's ideas. Ideas only arise from the 6 senses.

 

To clarify, (using two of your earlier examples)

 

 

...

 

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

Buddha said, "the Tathagata does not come and go."

 

...

 

- are you saying that Laozi and Buddha did not use their 6 senses to interpret what they realized resulting in those statements?

 

If the senses and their resulting 'ideas' are not in play here, then those two 'pieces of information' (for lack of a better term) from Laozi and Buddha must have just manifested as complete sentences and materialized like the commandments on the stone tablets!

 

Interesting idea.

 

I like that we each have our own Way. (-:

 

warm regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

I like that we each have our own Way. (-:

 

What a beautiful thought. It occurs to me that as we all discuss the minutia of how we get to that thing that none of us can describe anyway.....that it's so silly to expect that each and every one of us wouldn't have a slightly different way of looking at all this. There is no way in the world that you, I, or VMarco would describe it the same because we all have different histories. How can we possibly see this thing the same way?

 

What a mindblowing experience it is, having the honor of being in conversation, soul to soul, with people of your caliber. I suspect that what keeps us all coming back is that we are born seekers, and we have found others around the world who seek the same thing. I repeat this and I mean it from my heart. What an honor.

Edited April 8, 2013 by manitou

[rene]

manitou, hi, kind words, thanks (-:

 

It's a gift for all of us, imo, to engage in these kinds of sharings, heart to heart, and exchange of ideas. I'm grateful when those of other traditions reveal the same ideas at the core of their Ways; especially when they reflect what seems to be common to all as a shared and palpable (if not always understood or explainable!) experience.

 

I like the idea of Tao. Laozi's ideas are the simplest and come the closest to what I've always held and breathed; without the added baggage of doctrine that -isms bring to the mix.

 

Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.

For lack of a better word, I call it great.
Being great, it flows
I flows far away.
Having gone far, it returns.

 

What a wonderful idea. Works for me. (-:

 

warm regards