The Ultimate Tao, In One Simple Statement

[三江源]

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Edited April 15, 2015 by 三江源

[chenping]

Chenping.. I have seen you disrespect Shakespeare too, I think?

 

Uh-oh. Shakespeare is not a forum member. Does that count too?

 

I'd better get off.

[三江源]

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Edited April 15, 2015 by 三江源

[Apech]

Go read some Keats. Try not to defile it... except... its probably not possible to do so.. its beyond that, in and of itself.

 

 

 

'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all

Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

[Stosh]

There are no 'ultimate' anythings ! unless one introduces an arbitrary bias.

 

If one chooses to, one can say tao is fundamental, one can say it is ultimate,

one can say its ubiquitously integral, or omnipotent or indescribable..

but know it is a bias ,that as a human you can have and so -describe it so.

That which is IS .

 

So thats my ultimate Tao

That which is -is.

 

( whatever that is)

[Taomeow]

Tao fa ziran.

 

Tao patterns itself on itself.

[ChiDragon]

There are no 'ultimate' anythings ! unless one introduces an arbitrary bias.

 

If one chooses to, one can say tao is fundamental, one can say it is ultimate,

 

So, Lao Tze was the one who introduces an arbitrary bias about Tao....!?!?!?

[zerostao]

consider the video images and yet it does not quite approach the Great Tao

 

[Stosh]

 

So, Lao Tze was the one who introduces an arbitrary bias about Tao....!?!?!?

Absolutely !!! Obvious as all heck, since 'He' says so in the very first chapter.

as in

Any dao that can dao is not a constant dao

or similar phraseology

 

Laos dao is the TTC and its totally biased to yin as virtue

His Dao can only be used as a guide because it is biased

 

If he wrote a dao that anything goes , it wouldnt point anybody anywhere

 

Well , I cant say if he INTRODUCED it but he certainly employs it, I was reading" introduced" from the perspective that the TTC largely gives Taoism its current form.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Stosh

[Wu Ming Jen]

not yet born, before beginning began to begin,Empty yet not empty, the void of the beginning and end of all things. seems to exist yet does not exist, contains this and that, yin and yang but is not effected. Pure that can not be made more or less pure. Oh simple statement, Home Sweet Home

[chenping]

Laos dao is the TTC and its totally biased to yin as virtue

His Dao can only be used as a guide because it is biased

 

Any bias you detected comes from the English translation of the Tao Te Ching. Western renderings are biased.

 

If he wrote a dao that anything goes , it wouldnt point anybody anywhere

 

He wrote a Dao that nothing goes. But the westernized Dao is biased to an enabling yin because it is meant for a liberal readership. And because it is an enabler, it points everybody everywhere - anything goes - a bias of no biases.

Edited April 12, 2013 by chenping

[Stosh]

Regardless of the blatant ethnocentric westbashing Ill explain it further to you Cp,

because I still like you.

Tao has no bias , so there is no such thing as virtue to it.

Humans have the bias in that they-we want to live and do things

and so , though Tao sets the ground rules of what may be done

it is up to humans to choose which things we will do.

Lao wrote a pamphlet on virtue so he proposed that which he believed

made the soundest sense -for humans to adopt as preferred behavior.

The implied inverse ,,which finishes the scope of all that may be done..

is the NORMAL way that folks approach the world.

One only understands this if they are willing to both- test the veracity of

what Lao was saying , and give it a fair shake down.

When children are taught things by their elders , they dont do a very good job

at either of those things since they are either trying to suck-up or rebel.

Which is just part of why so many go so confused for so long.

Its really a shame.

You should help your people learn about their inheritance rather

than denounce the clearer understanding of foreign minds.

[Stosh]

not yet born, before beginning began to begin,Empty yet not empty, the void of the beginning and end of all things. seems to exist yet does not exist, contains this and that, yin and yang but is not effected. Pure that can not be made more or less pure. Oh simple statement, Home Sweet Home

All things are purely what ever they are.

The idea that homogenaity equals some completeness of virtue called purity

Is based on a bias that things 'should' be homogenous

which they never are .. remember? its yin and yang which complete a whole.

Unless you are just talking about everything , which has no bias, and therefore points no direction to virtue.

And in that case we have no disagreement

[chenping]

Regardless of the blatant ethnocentric westbashing Ill explain it further to you Cp,

because I still like you.

 

What west bashing? Philosophical Daoism of the west is a liberal arts subject that has a liberal bias. Yes or no?

 

Tao has no bias , so there is no such thing as virtue to it.

 

There is no Tao except the Tao that can be told and it has been told by Hendricks, Feng and others. This Tao has western liberal virtues like humility, equality and never put your best foot forward. Stuff like that.

 

Humans have the bias in that they-we want to live and do things

and so , though Tao sets the ground rules of what may be done

it is up to humans to choose which things we will do.

 

For God's sake, wake up! You can point to the Christians that they are worshipping a non-existent God, why can't you see that you are talking about a non-existent Tao? The ground rules of Tao are similar to the Commandments of God. Wake up!!

 

Lao wrote a pamphlet on virtue so he proposed that which he believed

made the soundest sense -for humans to adopt as preferred behavior.

The implied inverse ,,which finishes the scope of all that may be done..

is the NORMAL way that folks approach the world.

One only understands this if they are willing to both- test the veracity of

what Lao was saying , and give it a fair shake down.

 

Your Lao wrote a pamphlet. Pooh Bear Lao of the west, that is. Please don't infer that all this stuff you are saying (and it's quite alright for you to say them) are connected to the Chinese text of the Tao Te Ching which has no bias. Your brand of (western) Taoism is a sect not different from Wudang and other Taoist sects and each sect has its own respective bias. In that regard, you are correct. Western Taoism has a liberal bias.

 

When children are taught things by their elders , they dont do a very good job

at either of those things since they are either trying to suck-up or rebel.

Which is just part of why so many go so confused for so long.

Its really a shame.

 

I have been raised to respect my elders and do not share your western liberal disdain for tradition and authority. To look down on your elders is to have contempt for yourself. Such arrogance! And you would talk about humility.

 

You should help your people learn about their inheritance rather

than denounce the clearer understanding of foreign minds.

 

If your foreign mind have clearer understanding, why don't you stick with foreign thought like Christianity, psychology or Keats? Chinese thought of antiquity comes from an elitist, imperialistic culture of ancient China. People got their heads chopped off if they didn't bow to the Emperor. Everyone has his place. The Japanese and Koreans would understand this. You who would neither bow nor kneel could talk of humility? "White man speak with forked tongue", said the red man. Is that clear enough?

Edited April 12, 2013 by chenping

[zerostao]

clear is my favorite color

[Stosh]

1) dunno , I never looked into it , I also dont care what the tradition appears to be , since I can think for myself fine.

2)Though I have read Fengs translation and portions of Hendricks, I can think for myself just fine.

3) there is the manifest and the implied making the whole , that linguists concentrate on the lingo they have at hand isnt surprising , its just fine , they can choose or not choose to speculate about the implied.

4) Tao is a term already in use which I find accurate to define the situation any of us finds ourselves in , and as such, it clearly exists , and has little to do with imaginary parents.

The rules of Tao are nothing like the ten commandments because one cant break the rules of the Eternal Tao.

5) never read the Tao of pooh , so I dont want to comment on it , so you are making another straw man argument

 

6) Please describe the lack of bias of the TTC that you feel exists, this would be the one productive aspect of this interchange.

 

7) Did I talk of humility ? I may have ,but you'd have to find me the place where I did- so I can understand your context.

 

8) I listed two attitudes that children often have towards authority , not just rebellion.

 

9) There is nothing preventing me restricting me from investigating any tradition that I might choose to and I dont see race - ethnicity - or culture as a barrier that should not be crossed ,, in fact, yours regarding it ,is that type of thinking which I think should be exposed to the light of day (and then squashed for the harmony of everyone.)

Edited April 12, 2013 by Stosh

[chenping]

9) There is nothing preventing me restricting me from investigating any tradition that I might choose to and I dont see race - ethnicity - or culture as a barrier that should not be crossed ,, in fact, yours regarding it ,is that type of thinking which I think should be exposed to the light of day (and then squashed for the harmony of everyone.)

 

There is nothing wrong with crossing cultures as long as you respect the cultures you cross including avoid tearing down barriers that others erect to protect themselves from you. Even in America, a man has a right to shoot you down if you break into his home and force him to share his private life with you.

 

Wu wei of the Chinese Tao Te Ching that has no bias means to butt out. The world may not be pretty to you and you want to expose it to the light of day, eradicate cultural practises that divide, squash backward beliefs that destroy harmony. They are all wrong and you are right. In the end, we are all victims of those who think they are right. And this is your bias.

[Wu Ming Jen]

There is no direction with out a center which we could call a body or form or something seen with the eyes.

[Brian]

You are either cultivating life, or hastening death. Everything else is a distraction to obscure the one true reality.

 

Discuss as you see fit.

^^^ Why?

[Stosh]

There is nothing wrong with crossing cultures as long as you respect the cultures you cross including avoid tearing down barriers that others erect to protect themselves from you. Even in America, a man has a right to shoot you down if you break into his home and force him to share his private life with you.

 

Wu wei of the Chinese Tao Te Ching that has no bias means to butt out. The world may not be pretty to you and you want to expose it to the light of day, eradicate cultural practises that divide, squash backward beliefs that destroy harmony. They are all wrong and you are right. In the end, we are all victims of those who think they are right. And this is your bias.

Very good , yep it is. (Except for the part about wu wei , and disrespecting private lives) , but otherwise fairly sound!

[Formless Tao]

1) Its not daily increase but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials.

 

2) Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation.

 

3) Do not run away, let go. Do not seek, for it will come when least expected.

 

4) The art of life is simply to simplify.

 

5) Empty your cup so that it may be filled, become devoid to gain totality.

 

6) Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just a unch, a kick was just a kick. After I'd studied the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick was no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick.

 

7) Nothingness cannot be defined, the softest thing cannot be snapped.

 

All Bruce Lee

[Formless Tao]

"Empty your mind, be formless, shapless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend. "

 

 

Bruce Lee

[Formless Tao]

Is the glass half full or half empty?

[Formless Tao]

How many corners does a square room have?

[Stosh]

A room without walls is just open space

so the answer is eight , defined by the walls

-if the room is cubic- and not considered just an abstraction

there are no rooms that are squares

( which are two dimensional abstractions )