One Move

[thaddeus]

I learned the basic 5 elements of Xingyi years ago and recently have been trying to remember them. Been really experimenting with Santi posture and the movements between switching sides..for those familiar with xingyi, I'm doing a movement that resembles Pichuan but just getting into santi and staying there until i feel it's time to move. So then I start to think, "wow, I really like this, I need to get back into training..let me start to look up some xingyi teachers and systems"...but get this, there's lots of stories throughout martial arts history of people who become great repeating one stupid move over and over and over. There's a certain level of honesty and integrity in training like that. So I'm thinking, "what else is there to really learn?" Another form? Another movement? Everything is in this one move..how I get into it, how I change in it and how I get out.."

So my question is..what else is there to really learn? We just need to know one movement. The rest is really just academic.

T

[wenwu]

first all all well done on getting back into training

 

 

if you are taking from a fight perpestive then most good fighter and especially the great fighters of the past had one move that they used, i have asked myself te same question a few times

 

the truth is (at least for me) that the forms are mainly a system of movement they teach you how to use your body in a number of different ways to create power in all sorts of directions and situations, martial arts were not created for one person, or body type they were added to and taken away from by many people before we got what we have now. so within the forms we all have the one move that we like, but if we don't know the other moves we may not get a chance to use our favorite.

 

sorry i my post is meandering a little, i ahve had a valentines drink or 2 with my beautiful girlfriend

 

will post more later

[rex]

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

Bruce Lee

[Japhy Ryder]

 

there's lots of stories throughout martial arts history of people who become great repeating one stupid move over and over and over. There's a certain level of honesty and integrity in training like that. So I'm thinking, "what else is there to really learn?" Another form? Another movement? Everything is in this one move..how I get into it, how I change in it and how I get out.."

So my question is..what else is there to really learn? We just need to know one movement. The rest is really just academic.

T

 

In Master Lam Kam Chuen's book The Way of Energy, he tells the story of a student who wanted to learn from a master martial artist. Instead of launching the neophyte into punching and kicking, the master simply told the student to stand like a tree. The student was puzzled by this but did as the master told him, every day, simply standing while the other students practiced their fighting skills nearby.

 

Several months passed. Then one day, the master asked the student to spar with a much more experienced opponent. Even though he'd "only" stood and hadn't practiced any fighting skills, the student had no trouble controlling his opponent. He later became a master himself.

 

I wonder whether this story is an example of what neuroscientists call mirror neuron facilitation. Maybe the act of standing made the student's system receptive to learning the skills being practiced all around him--so receptive that he could learn and even demonstrate them unconsciously.

[Mal]

but get this, there's lots of stories throughout martial arts history of people who become great repeating one stupid move over and over and over. There's a certain level of honesty and integrity in training like that. So I'm thinking, "what else is there to really learn?"

 

It's a fair question, if you only want to defend yourself IMHO you don't really need more than one move that you KNOW WORKS if you have the ability to set the situation so that move is effective. I found that after 6mts of Tong Long training I was able to defend myself against 95% of people out there. Basically because 95% of the people out there only know a few moves, and don't practice every day And I wondered why I should I put in a lot of effort over the next 10 years to learn the other 9 forms in our system when I had basically everything I needed in the first form (6 techniques)

 

As far as defending yourself the problem is IF you come up against that remaining 5% of people out there that do practice and do know more than a few moves. Then the technical advantages of the more "advanced" forms in your system are usefull. But running into people like that who want to "pick a fight" is pretty rare.

 

So why did I keep practicing? I found that there was a lot more to martial arts than just being able to fight and I found it to be a great program of physical exercise and spiritual development that really helps me a lot as a person, so I would like to learn the entire art.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Mal

[Wayfarer64]

I think that for dangerous martial applications one move is not enough.

For practice fighting in a Dojo it may well be, for a little while.

 

I think that what one may use to subdue a fiesty (but not huge) drunk will just not work on sober and very large serious assailant(s). This is assuming one would want to do the least harm possible to control the situation in the first instance, and do the most damage as quickly as possible in the second.

 

A big smile may be enough to defuse some beligerants, BUT... give the first shot to another. The one best move is to get a good "take" on what/who you are up against... The brain is our greatest weapon...

 

Sizing up the situation is the only one move I can think of. If your stance is demonstrative of some knowledge and your eye is fierce and fearless that alone is often enough.

 

But I have found that the rather rudamentary Hung Gar's "Five Animal" form offers most of what anyone would need to get through a tough spot.

 

Be mindful & careful out there TaoBums! Some folks ain't playin'...

[thaddeus]

It's a fair question, if you only want to defend yourself IMHO you don't really need more than one move that you KNOW WORKS if you have the ability to set the situation so that move is effective. I found that after 6mts of Tong Long training I was able to defend myself against 95% of people out there. Basically because 95% of the people out there only know a few moves, and don't practice every day And I wondered why I should I put in a lot of effort over the next 10 years to learn the other 9 forms in our system when I had basically everything I needed in the first form (6 techniques)

 

Hi Mal, what you're describing is the hallmark (and the downfall) of external martial arts. i.e. this move does that and counters this, etc.

Internal martial arts are different. There are no 'moves'. And that's the beauty of studying the internal arts. Taichi is the most sophisticated in this sense and if you're lucky enough to find a teacher who can show you, you only need to study 'one move' for self defense. All one needs is physical contact with the opponent to know him. What's the 'one move'? It's relaxation.

Ok, now I'm giving all the secrets away...

T

[thaddeus]

Sizing up the situation is the only one move I can think of. If your stance is demonstrative of some knowledge and your eye is fierce and fearless that alone is often enough.

I defeated the biggest bully in junior high school like this. He was aware that I was into weird stuff (basically i was reading 'Ki in Daily Life' and bruce tegner's books), but he was a mean, nasty sob. We squared off and we were going to fight. I was scared, but I had a lot of heart. I don't even remember what the conflict was, but all i did was face him and move the angle of my forward foot to make a T stance. He looked down at my feet, looked at me with that 'what the hell am I in for look' turned around and walked away.

T

[Smile]

Internal martial arts are different. There are no 'moves'. And that's the beauty of studying the internal arts. Taichi is the most sophisticated in this sense and if you're lucky enough to find a teacher who can show you, you only need to study 'one move' for self defense. All one needs is physical contact with the opponent to know him.

Exactly. Some of the people I study with are puzzled when I tell them that I don't really care about all the other forms my taiji teacher will eventually teach me. One is enough. It will develop all the internal skills that can be applied to life in general or any physical contact with another being. If the movement becomes a moving meditation, then it doesn't really matter what you do. Like that guy standing for years to become a powerful MA or the guy that for years were trying to uproot a tree.

[mYTHmAKER]

It's relaxation.

 

It sure is - great post

[Mal]

[bronzebow]

[Mal]

Some of the people I study with are puzzled when I tell them that I don't really care about all the other forms my taiji teacher will eventually teach me. One is enough.

 

I read a quote from an old Tai Chi teacher many years ago, and they asked him if he could have his life over again would he do anything different?

 

His answer was. "Only learn one form"

[Wayfarer64]

It sure is - great post

 

I think there is a difference between relaxation and calm/limber.

 

When sprung upon . one may be able to relax in a drunk monkey sort of way to shed one's assailant. But to just relax seems a mis-nomer to me.

 

I don't mean to nit-pick the symantics here, but relaxation under attack is not always an apt response; while remaining calm is always a good place to come from...

 

I guess, as a rule to offer a discription, I am in a state of physical awareness that seems like shifting between that of a coiled spring and a swimmer shaking off water, back to tense and then into a middle state of flexibility, as I calm myself to assertain the situation at hand.

 

Getting aware of one's own body's current condition is a big part of sizing up the total situation. Once you get into your middle-aged years it is more important. At twenty I did not need to check my own physical readyness, at fifty it seems prudent.

 

I believe what we are going for is a state of acute awareness and readyness, not relaxation, so I will take the relax notion as not letting oneself get emotional or upset at the situation. Calm. but wary. Physicaly I want to feel a fluidity available to my movements...

 

Mastering the internal without the external has to only take one day longer than the day you are attacked to be useless. That is why I suggest learning hard external systems first and the more rewarding and internal forms afterwards, once you have the basic survival skills.

 

I have found going for the eyes with ones' four fingers in a claw and jabbing with gusto will stop almost anyone. Fighting blind (even though it is usually temporary) just takes the dander out of your general miscreant ...This is not a recomended move on someone with a gun tho-as they may just start shooting!

 

But having any given one move that you are sure of executing well, offers some of that inner calm... Be it a judo-flip, a karate kick, a wrist-lock or a wrestlers' take-down, a basic move that you know you can do well and with affect is a good place to start self-defence training.

[Spectrum]

Perhaps the Taoist sage would say the space between form and formlessness is the single perfect move; then he would fu out a lil bit, and you wouldn't be able to help yourself, you'd be doing fu together. It might appear fruity, but a nice kind of hawaiin fruit.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[wenwu]

yeah, extrenal styles go very much for the this attack = this counter, internal arts that i have studied spend a lot of time working on shen fa (body method) in this you are not so concerned with sticking your arms out but moving your body to project you arms, this way you don't lose so much of your natural movements.

 

one the topic of one move, when you get to an advance level of Taiji the whole form is just one movement

[thaddeus]

I don't mean to nit-pick the symantics here, but relaxation under attack is not always an apt response; while remaining calm is always a good place to come from...

Hi Wayfarer, I'm not sure if you studied taichichuan in depth? Relaxation means returning to the wuji state, a state of balance. When attacked, if you're following an internal system like taichichuan, it's the only response.

If you respond with an off balanced tactical method, that is what I'm saying is an external martial art response.

Which is perfectly ok, because it will probably save your life over an above an internal system. Internal systems aren't better, it's just a different approach to a situation.

Here's an example of the two strategies.

If I am grabbed, I am off balance now because the opponent is applying forces to me. My relaxation, is my return to a balanced state. The process of returning to the balance state, actually unbalances the opponent, because they are connected to me. This is not a repeatable 'technique'. In an external system, i am grabbed and based on how I am grabbed and what technigues I practice, I will respond. The bigger, faster, stronger I am the more luck I have.

External systems are the most practical and the easiest to learn. We can probably count on one the hand the effective internal stylists. There are thousands of bad ass externalists.

I'm just pointing out the differences and why, for me, it's more fun to study the internal stuff. But I'm not saying it's better or more effective by any means.

T

[Spectrum]

The permutations of TaiJiQuan postures is the manifestation of wuji between them. Is it called the space between the 13 original postures? and then I think Wang of the YiQuan lineage wrote somewhere that it started w/ 3 and that the 3 came from One. This is the same as I have learned through my mentors and individual research. The standing postures compliment moving, the moving compliment standing. Stillness in Motion, Motion in Stillness.

 

Regardless of the geometrical lineage of the evolution of human movement from primordial to infinate; the space between the lines seems to be the majority of the 'form'. The evolution is a given, and representive through wuji/yin/yang/taiji/iching, etc. The photos we have of Yang Cheng Fu etc are points in which proportional lines coincide, i.e. phi spirals through the "opponent" due to a postural faults in wuji. If both people move together nicely it doesn't much look like fighting, but the dance of blending is more important to me personally at this point then the "stops" that make up many other "forms" of movement.

 

I agree, Tai Chi Chuan executed correctly is one move, in sparring the point in which movement stops is usually judged as success or failure, depending on perspective. Once you always learn from both there's no stopping anyways. I've learned a lot from following this philosophy of embodiment.

 

Spectrum

Edited February 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[mYTHmAKER]

the space between the lines seems to be the majority of the 'form'.

 

otherwise known as the transitions between forms

[Spectrum]

otherwise known as the transitions between forms

 

From what I understand this is how wuji manifests between and in every posture. It's so beautiful. Another way to describe it might be how the axis stays center; the hips & shoulders, elbows and knees, hands and feet maintain their alignment and fluidity while constantly transitioning. WuJi in motion. The stillness of the diamond body in motion. This type of poetic order also suggests the blending of "moves" by guiding the practitioner into modes that at first pierce the layers between the orthodox movements, and eventually the layers between what is inside and what is outside.

 

I believe there are many layers to movement forms this way, and in my experience a certain deepening and rounding off of movements seem to take place during these times. Once the cross tension lines of force are established and understood the idea of "one move" doesn't seem so far fetched when you consider how many different directions you can actually enter into one single move. I think TaiJiQuan is a good example of this.

 

Spectrum

Edited February 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[Wayfarer64]

Hi all,

 

I find that the most interesting shift in my energy and qi comes durring the transitions between the actual moves in a form. That is where & when the power is developed to make the move a substantial one.

 

There is no cause for mentioning one system vs another here... They each have merit and everyone will need to find their own best system and teacher for their own purposes. But I thought the thead was about a self-defence move that will be worthwhile in a time of need.

 

The esoteric oneness of a form is pretty obvious when they are done well. The 5 Animal has a wonderful grace through-out the 40 odd postures that make up the whole form. It is the only form I have kept practiceing over the past 17 years as a constant practice.

 

I have no need, and hope noone else would need to be bad-assed, but only to protect who/whatever matters to me from those who would do harm...

 

I always thought I'd like to try Taichichuan, and have just put it off 'til I was older ... now that I am older it may be time to look into it some more.

 

I sort of got the relaxing thing but also thought it should be clarified to be of help to those who have no clue as to what the internal vs external means...Judo was the first martial art I studied when I was about 10 or so, and the balance thing is basic to wrestling as well. Always find a way to use your opponant's weight and effort to put them off-balance.

 

But even my Hung Gar teacher who was a Grand Master said if you can just leave then just leave...

[thelerner]

Wayfarer, which 5 Animal system do you use? I've got Winns and one day it would be great to compare it to other peoples beasts.

 

Michael

 

Its the one Chi Gung tape my kids will do

[Wayfarer64]

Wayfarer, which 5 Animal system do you use? I've got Winns and one day it would be great to compare it to other peoples beasts.

 

Michael

 

Its the one Chi Gung tape my kids will do

 

Hi Michael-

 

I thought I wrote that it is the basic form of Hung Gar Shaolin somewhere on this thread/site...

I must admit that some of these threads have run together in my mind and I am not always sure where I wrote something...

There are about 40 movements to the form.

 

For those who may wonder - Basically, a form is a series of connected movements that create a fluid "dance" of the body/mind/spirit in unison, with concentration and control and awareness of oneself in space and time...

 

There are many in every system I know of -'cept Taichichuan just has the one ? Is that correct or are there other forms to learn than the basic one seen in parks every morning throughout Asia and any China-town...?!

 

I didn't mean to bring the thread back to the basic "what is it?" level. but it seems apt discussing the one move notion...

[mYTHmAKER]

I always thought I'd like to try Taichichuan, and have just put it off 'til I was older ... now that I am older it may be time to look into it some more.

 

Yes many people think tai chi is for old people. Even in China they say it is for old people.

It makes sense in a way as one usually sees old people in the park playing the form.

What is overlooked is that they are old and able to play the form because they started

when they were young. Those that didn't are not out there because they are either infirm

or no longer with us.

[Neijia]

What is overlooked is that they are old and able to play the form because they started

when they were young.

 

The demands of real Taiji are best met in youth (despite what Park Districts and those fucking Celebrex commercials might have you think). That's not to say that old people can't learn to play Taij - but they often have a much harder time learning due to accumulated mental and emotional patterns, and pure physical limitation. Inflexibility of both sorts being gifts of age.

 

In my opinion, yes, external is a fast way to learning some self-defense, but internal is a much better investment.