Eating Meat for Noble Purposes vs Eating Meat for Pleasures

[eat meat gross]

http://www.kagyuoffice.org/#VVI2013-10

Gyalwang Karmapa explained two key reasons that he personally does not eat meat. The first reason is the intense suffering that the animals who are killed go through. Every single day millions of animals are killed to feed us, and many are subjected to terrible conditions to provide us with food. Just a few days previously the Gyalwang Karmapa had shared a story of how, as a child in Tibet, when animals were killed for his family's food he felt unbearable, pure compassion for them.

The second reason he doesn't eat meat, the Gyalwang Karmapa continued, is because of his Mahayana training in seeing all sentient beings as his mothers. "We say I am going to do everything I can to free sentient beings from suffering. We say I am going to do this. We make the commitment. We take the vow. Once we have taken this vow, if then, without thinking anything about it, we just go ahead and eat meat, then that is not okay. It is something that we need to think about very carefully."

The Gyalwang Karmapa revealed that meat can only be consumed when an ill person needs to eat meat in order to strengthen his body. Even then, there are three conditions which the ill meat eater must abide by when eating meat.

1) we must not have seen, heard, or thought that the animal was killed particularly for us to eat it.

2) meditate on compassion for one session—compassion for all sentient beings in general, but especially for this particular animal whose flesh is in front of you. Then you should recite the mantras of the Buddha's name, as well as mantras that can help purify misdeeds. Only then should you start eating the meat.

3) When you start eating the meat you have to think about it in a particular way. You should think of it as being the meat of your mother or your father or your child. You should think of eating it in that way, and so it's when you think of it as being your mother's or your child's meat, then that is when you can eat it.

We must also have a pure motivation when we eat the meat, the Gyalwang Karmapa continued. "We should not eat the meat in order to enjoy it, because it is delicious. We should not eat it because we want to enjoy the great flavor and savor what we are eating. Instead we should eat the meat only in order to keep ourselves alive."

Edited April 8, 2013 by eat meat gross

[eat meat gross]

On the sixth day of his Spring Teachings the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje, cut straight to the core of an issue that is vital not only for the sustainability of our contemporary world, but also within our individual lives as Buddhist practitioners. Exploring the topic from many different angles, the Gyalwang Karmapa discussed his views on whether Buddhist practitioners should eat meat or not, and if so, when and how it may be acceptable to do so.

"A few years ago at one of the Kagyu Monlams I spoke about the topic of vegetarianism, giving up eating meat. You could say it was an announcement, but it was really like making a suggestion. Since then many years have passed, and over the years I've heard people say various things. Some people have even said, 'Oh, Ogyen Trinley Dorje says that if you don't give up eating meat then you're not a Kagyupa.' Now, it actually wasn't me who said that. It was the 8th Karmapa Mikyo Dorje who said that. So it wasn't my idea, and it's not like I said you better give up meat or else you're not a Kagyupa."

In fact, there are different ways we can interpret the 8th Karmapa's advice, the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa continued. If we take a looser interpretation of Mikyo Dorje's words, then by eating meat you can say that you're not a truly pure Kagyu practitioner. "There are many great Kagyu masters who have eaten meat, so it is very difficult to merely say that eating meat means that you have faults. But eating meat is something that all of us who practice the dharma need to think about very carefully."

The Gyalwang Karmapa, himself a pure vegetarian, then turned to his own life as an example. "When I spoke about this, I was primarily thinking about the way I lead my own life. I can't really do anything about how other people lead their lives, but in terms of thinking about myself there are some reasons for this." He then explained two key reasons that he personally does not eat meat. The first reason is the intense suffering that the animals who are killed go through. Every single day millions of animals are killed to feed us, and many are subjected to terrible conditions to provide us with food. Just a few days previously the Gyalwang Karmapa had shared a story of how, as a child in Tibet, when animals were killed for his family's food he felt unbearable, pure compassion for them.

The second reason he doesn't eat meat, the Gyalwang Karmapa continued, is because of his Mahayana training in seeing all sentient beings as his mothers. "We say I am going to do everything I can to free sentient beings from suffering. We say I am going to do this. We make the commitment. We take the vow. Once we have taken this vow, if then, without thinking anything about it, we just go ahead and eat meat, then that is not okay. It is something that we need to think about very carefully."

The Gyalwang Karmapa then acknowledged that there are some circumstances in which eating meat is allowed, or even necessary. He explained that within the Buddhist Vinaya, or rules for monks and nuns, eating meat is allowed mainly when one is ill, but only if three conditions are met: we must not have seen, heard, or thought that the animal was killed particularly for us to eat it. Meat is allowed when a person is sick, the Gyalwang Karmapa clarified, or for those people who need more nourishment and have great difficulty nourishing themselves without it.

"But when you eat meat in these situations you should not just eat it in an ordinary sort of way," he continued. "You first need to meditate on compassion for one session—compassion for all sentient beings in general, but especially for this particular animal whose flesh is in front of you. Then you should recite the mantras of the Buddha's name, as well as mantras that can help purify misdeeds. Only then should you start eating the meat."

Yet his guidance did not stop there. Returning to the Mahayana training of seeing all sentient beings as mothers, the Gyalwang Karmapa explained further. "When you start eating the meat you have to think about it in a particular way. You should think of it as being the meat of your mother or your father or your child. You should think of eating it in that way, and so it's when you think of it as being your mother's or your child's meat, then that is when you can eat it."

We must also have a pure motivation when we eat the meat, the Gyalwang Karmapa continued. "We should not eat the meat in order to enjoy it, because it is delicious. We should not eat it because we want to enjoy the great flavor and savor what we are eating. Instead we should eat the meat only in order to keep ourselves alive."

To avoid any misunderstanding, the Gyalwang Karmapa repeated the need for each individual to reflect deeply on the issue: "Now, I did not say that we need to immediately give up eating meat. I understand that it's difficult to give up eating meat. But I did say that we need to think about it carefully. When we eat meat, if we are someone who has entered the path of the Mahayana, someone who has begun to think of all sentient beings as their father, their mother, or their child, in terms of someone who practices in this way it's really something that we need to consider very carefully."

[eat meat gross]

Most people eat meat because they enjoy eating meat and they can't destroy their desires and attachments to eating meat even though their bodies are obese and their health would increase by leaps and bounds if they turn to a purely vegetarian diet.

Most people are not old, sickly people like the dalai lama who have to eat meat for medical purposes yet the same "meat-eaters" dare to criticize the dalai lama for eating meat and thus claim that since the dalai lama, the most compassionate person on the planet is eating meat, why can't the rest of the common citizens do the same?

I would like to see every meat-eater see every piece of meat as meat belonging to their mother, father or child and consume every mouthful of meat imagining that the same piece of meat is flesh from their own mother, father or child.

Then i like to see the same meat-eaters think about the enjoyment of the taste of eating meat from their own mother, father and child and then we see if such acts still change their way of thinking about meat-eating in general.

Most meat-eaters would never dare to think of the meat which they are putting in their mouths as meat from their mother, father or child because how can anyone enjoy the taste of meat if they know that it is meat from their own parents or children's bodies?

Rather, they want to ignore the fact that the very same animals which they are eating could very well be their own parents or children in previous life-times so they can enjoy the great fantastic sauces and seasoning being spread on their meats.

 

Most meat-eaters eat meat for pleasure but the dalai lama eat meat for medical purposes as he is old and ill and to save the souls of the dead animals. This is the main difference between most meat-eaters the the dalai lama!

[Flolfolil]

Can you destroy your desire and attachment to the feeling of superiority being a vegetarian/vegan brings? The day i might quit meat might just be the day vegetarians stop trying to act like they are better than me.

 

Don't try to tell me not to enjoy my food.

[Protector]

I'm suddenly reminded of a Family Guy episode that was rerun a billion times on tv about the grandpa thinking that pooping is evil

 

Now... the noble poop... I wonder what that is...

[RongzomFan]

Different lamas have different takes.

[Protector]

Different lamas have different takes.

 

Don't you mean... tastes?

 

[Vmarco]

Eating meat manifests heart attacks,...not heart consciousness

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51459488/ns/health-heart_health/

[thelerner]

Hey I'm generally on the side of vegetarians but your writing style and arguments not going to convince anyone, the arrogant tone is just going to harden positions. 'You may be eating your grandparents', not only won't that argument fly in Western society its going to have the opposite effect.

 

Keep it simple, know your audience. Can we agree its better to go through life creating the least amount of unnecessarily pain? Vegetarianism tends to be better for our environment, and better for our health. Its that simple. Particularly in the West, factory farming is often disgraceful. The animals we eat do not have a good quality of life, quite the opposite and we the consumers bare a measure of responsibility for that. And we're hurting our quality of health by over indulging in meat.

 

I eat meat, but recognize its not a good thing. So I use it more as a condiment. Little bit of meat, lots of veggies.

Edited April 8, 2013 by thelerner

[Vmarco]

Vegetarianism tends to be better for our environment, and better for our health. Its that simple. Particularly in the West, factory farming is often disgraceful. The animals we eat do not have a good quality of life, quite the opposite and we the consumers bare a measure of responsibility for that. And we're hurting our quality of health by over indulging in meat.

 

I eat meat, but recognize its not a good thing. So I use it more as a condiment. Little bit of meat, lots of veggies.

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10786-cows-pigs-and-sheep-environments-greatest-threats.html

[Birch]

Style, patterns, arguments, underlining.

 

Not entirely sure, but pretty sure.

 

 

[de_paradise]

When dealing with meat eaters, perhaps one should use grunts and simple gesticulations, it may work better. Or not. Anyway, chicken nuggets are 1/2 off in McDonalds in China now due to the flu outbreak.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I eat vegetarian about 97% of the time, however, I find it difficult to get enough protein when skipping meals. I wonder how monks manage to fast regularly, eat basically vegan, do demanding stuff like violent exorcisms and daily mountain climbing, and still feel their getting enough protein. I suppose the meditation and lifestyle have something to do with it, but not everyone can maintain this lifestyle outside of monastery life.

[C T]

Different lamas have different takes.

 

Tsem Tulku, himself a vegetarian, once said that people misunderstand that going vege means no more karmic accruements in relation to food consumption. There are consequences, just not as heavy.

 

The key is abstinence and mindfulness. Vegetarians can be desirous, selfish gluttons too. Its the intent, the thoughts, that count in the end.

 

Most vegetarians dont do so well in the work place. They are usually the first ones to catch whatever bug is present, and go on sick leave, for longer than most others. Shouldn't they be the healthier group?

[johndoe2012]

Tulku?

[JohnC]

Eat meat good. I love meat.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

While I am a lover of Bacon, Venison, Buffalo, and Sausages; I am also a lover of the animals themselves and feel no lack of guilt in their slaughter or pain at the conditions of their lives.

If I had a chance to eat dog, cat, bat, or any other mammal, i wouldnt necessarily shy away from the invitation, however, i would not be without grief for the life it cost.




Why stagnate on an obstacle when you can just walk side by side with it like a brother?

[niveQ]

I am a vegetarian. I rarely eat dairy. Sometimes I fall into the trap of taste and make a homemade pizza.

I eat nuts and seeds fairly often, as well as oats and quinoa. I eat a lot of fruits and veggies, drink water and have a kombuchu a day.

 

I do not struggle being active and oddly even have more energy when I have eaten hardly anything. I tend to be the most energetic of any group i am in. I tend to only be brought down by authority.

 

I almost NEVER get sick. The last time I was sick, it was food poisoning from over eating a chocolate moose cake. This was the only time I have been noticeably sick in almost two years.

I do not eat meat because:

 

A. I had an epiphany about 3 years ago that brought be terrible guilt and lead me to go on and off of vegetarianism for about a year and then become a full time vegetarian about two years ago.

 

and

 

B. Health concerns. Being in middle America, I see too many people have high blood pressure problems, cholesterol problems and obesity problems.

 

I know a couple people who only eat grass fed stuff from health stores. They live active lives, eat in moderation and still are having problems with fatigue, cholesterol and weight loss.

 

Like many things, the meat industry is a huge money making machine. The main difference is this machine is lubricated with the blood of the enslaved and tortured animals and leads to death among the many addicts it consumes.

 

I don't judge people who eat meat. I don't think I am better than them. If they had experienced my life, they would have ended up where I am and if I had experienced theirs, I would have ended up where they are.

 

I go with my gut. If a person goes with their gut and has no qualms about eating meat, I can't for the life of me understand it, but if it feels right, I can only let them know what I think and let them do what they feel.

 

 

Who knows? As I grow, I become more fiery. I slowly am becoming more outspoken about this subject. I kind of oscillate. Sometimes, I let people stick to their devices, other times I let my disagreement be known. I think a person has to arrive to a place on their own.

Edited April 8, 2013 by niveQ

[Stosh]

A dichotomy has been set up

Nobility versus pleasures

 

Sacrifice yourself for nobility

by self deprivation if you want.

My cat wouldnt do such an unnatural thing.

[niveQ]

A dichotomy has been set up

Nobility versus pleasures

 

Sacrifice yourself for nobility

by self deprivation if you want.

My cat wouldnt do such an unnatural thing.

 

Our cats don't do it, but maybe some humans find nobility in not sacrificing themselves for nobility. Maybe part of their motivation to eat meat is to counteract the other side of this dichotomy which they feel is unnaturally seeking nobility and/or spiritual superiority.

 

But, it isn't always about nobility.

 

EDIT: And it's a good thing our cats would not do that. Their bodies don't produce the proper enzymes to survive on a vegetarian diet.

Edited April 8, 2013 by niveQ

[niveQ]

Also, I don't know any vegetarians that view themselves as better people. I only hear non-vegetarians talk about this subject. It is their perception.

[liminal_luke]

Along with just about everybody I know, I used to think vegtables were healthy. Turns out I was wrong. Vegtables are, at best, neutral from a good-for-you perspective. Sure if you switch from eating sugary soft drinks and boxed macaroni and cheese to a diet of salads and such things will improve. Still, the fact is that a purely vegetarian diet is not optimal for health. For optimal health you really have to eat some animal products. If you have the taste for them, adding a few veggies and fruits in with the meat won't hurt but it doesn't help much either.

 

Before all the veg-heads attack with horror stories about suffering and slaughter in factore farms let me just say this: I totally agree with you. Factory farming is gross. If a person decided not to eat factory-farmed meat, well, I could totally get behind the ethics of that. But truly grass-fed cows? Wild salmon? Those are different beasts altogether.

 

And if the goal is not to kill sentient beings, do you really think no animals died so you could eat your broccoli? If your eating the products of modern agriculture that simply isn't true.

Edited April 8, 2013 by liminal_luke

[niveQ]

You do not need any animal product for optimal health.

[liminal_luke]

You do not need any animal product for optimal health.

 

Ummm, sure ya do. We should probably both cite scientific sources rather than just making off-the-cuff comments. That way our claims would have more meat to them. I didn't because (1) I'm lazy, (2) nutritional geekiness isn't really my thing, and mostly because (3) most people aren't going to do the work to think critically about the science anyways, no matter what I post. I'll tell ya what though--I'll show ya mine, if you show me yours.

 

One caveat: no epidemological studies please.

[C T]

Along with just about everybody I know, I used to think vegtables were healthy. Turns out I was wrong. Vegtables are, at best, neutral from a good-for-you perspective. Sure if you switch from eating sugary soft drinks and boxed macaroni and cheese to a diet of salads and such things will improve. Still, the fact is that a purely vegetarian diet is not optimal for health. For optimal health you really have to eat some animal products. If you have the taste for them, adding a few veggies and fruits in with the meat won't hurt but it doesn't help much either.

 

Before all the veg-heads attack with horror stories about suffering and slaughter in factore farms let me just say this: I totally agree with you. Factory farming is gross. If a person decided not to eat factory-farmed meat, well, I could totally get behind the ethics of that. But truly grass-fed cows? Wild salmon? Those are different beasts altogether.

 

And if the goal is not to kill sentient beings, do you really think no animals died so you could eat your broccoli? If your eating the products of modern agriculture that simply isn't true.

I agree. Especially the last paragraph.