The real meaning of Jing

[Ryan McCoole]

Hello all,

 

About three months ago you helped me in answering some Zhan Zhaung questions and about Jing in general. Every day, come hell or highwater, I do about 15 minutes of Standing like a tree basic qi-gong, with a couple more positions thrown in. Qi-gong truly is the best teacher abotu life, yourself, and your spirit. I had a few questions I’d like to pose.

 

One.) Jing energy loss: sometime I go weeks, and sometimes I can only go days without releasing my Jing via orgasm. Not sure why its so hard and yet other times manageable. Any advice on how you control it and bring it into your Dan Tien every day? From all I’ve read, it is one of the main cornerstones of Qi-gong..and I have felt it.

 

Two.) I started and still use The Way of Energy by Master Lam Kam Chuen for the past two years. How come Master Chuen doesn’t mention anything at all about Jing, or energy loss via orgasm in this book? How come other Taoist authors, like Dr. Yang, Jwing, Ming, end their qi-gong books with “One Hundred questions” adding their speculations as to how Jing really works, how it is lost, etc. Any thoughts from the Tao Bums as to the nature of Jing?

 

Thanks a lot for your time,

 

-Ryan McCoole-

 

Tao Bum

Edited February 15, 2007 by Ryan McCoole

[Taomeow]

One of my favorite subjects, jing is, so I'll jump right in...

 

The opinion that jing is lost through sexual orgasm is one of those generalizations that are somewhat true some of the time for some of the people. Jing is not limited in any way to "sexual energy," contrary to popular belief. Jing is our cosmic memory. As opposed to our personal memory, which is more accessible to some of us some of the time. The healthier the shens, the more complete the personal memory. The healthier the jing, the more complete the cosmic memory. Far as human jing is concerned, its main function is to remember how to be fully human. As one of the holy sages put it, "To be fully human is this: to stand like a human, to sit like a human, to walk like a human, and to lie down like a human." Anyone whose bodymind "remembers" how to do these things as a human being will suffer no abnormal loss of jing through any human activities. Anyone who doesn't will keep losing it through ANY activities, not just sexual intercourse.

 

Human sex, like all other human activities, has parameters of "normality" and "balance" that are determined correctly by an overall-balanced system, and incorrectly by an imbalanced one. Modern people are conceived, born, and raised in all manner of unnatural/unbalanced/abnormal ways, so they lose rather than gain some jing right at conception, and more while they are growing, and more as they proceed to live a subsequent life already predicated on distorted development and growth processes. Addressing this problem via sexual or asexual practices is about as useful as addressing the ocean with a teaspoon.

 

So... basically, I wouldn't bother. If one is engaged in too much sex, the problem is not sex, the problem is the distorted pathways (lost memory!) that cause one to mistakenly process needs, feelings and drives not sexual in their origin via sexual release. (E.g., anger. Forbid the physical expression of anger to a small child and the release will be sought later by other means. Or love. Deprive a small child of normal everyday physical contact expressing closeness, acceptance, love, and safety -- and the fulfillment of an unfulfilled need will be sought via sexual touch later, and misunderstood for sexual needs and feelings.) If one is engaged in too little, chances are it's a symptom of a weak jing to begin with, not of a particularly enlightened state... but how much is too much and how little is too little is quite individual.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Taomeow

[seadog]

Great post Taomeow.Thankyou

[Ryan McCoole]

*nods* thank you Taomeow, that was really helpful! So, being a human, remmebering that we all come from the stars so to speak, naturally strengthens the Jing and Shen, and therefore you are ,more apt to conserve energy than loose it through a scattered spirit.

[spyrelx]

As poetic and eloquent as that post was, I think meow is very very very mistaken. I have read, studied and practice this stuff a fair amount and I have never encountered any traditional taoist or TCM teaching that would charactarize jing like that, not by a long shot.

 

Jing is not memory. It is not some jungian concept. Jing is energy, pure and simple. Though it is probably a misnomer to call jing "sexual energy", it is axiomatic in TCM that jing is connected and the source of your sexual energy and also that it can be lost, at least for men, through careless sexual practice.

 

Any male who has practiced daoism and watched their own body knows this to be true. Indeed, meow's post was so willfully ignorant of this fact that I suspect meow to be female (who, in TCM view, generally might or might not loose jing during sex so, like she said, it'd be "true some of the time for some people").

 

Of course one can argue -- from a TCM theoretical standpoint -- that a man can reach a level where ejaculation will have a negligible effect on his jing. But it is highligh unlikely anyone on this board has reached that level, and certainly not Ryan, the guy who asked the initial question.

 

TCM would say you've got a limited amount of jing, so don't waste it. Though some schools have detailed and rigorous practices to increase your jing (while other schools would argue it's impossible), NO ONE would be so flippant as to propose that by "just remembering we're from stars" our jing will be flowing and abundant.

 

Ryan, regarding your specific question about Master Chuen, I don't know, but that book (which is one of my favorites) is meant very much for a mass audience of westerners and is teaching a very specific practice. It may be that he didn't think it relevant to his audience given the limited nature of what he was teaching.

 

Regarding why sometimes you can hold off and sometimes you can't, there are countless reasons, many of which I am aware of and many of which I'm sure I am ignorant of. I do know that the more you practice and get familiar with and listen to your own body, the more you should have control. Regarding specific methods, if you've never tried anything than Chia's methods are as good a place to start (I'm one of the few defenders here of the MultiOrgasmic Man book). There are other hawkers of seminal retention methods. If you're like most you need to go through a number of them before settling on a coctail of practices that work for you.

[Trunk]

...

I always appreciate that you're so good at starkly disagreeing without hostility, you're honest, stand your ground, express your views clearly.

[sunshine]

Why in heaven Spyrelx do you assume TCM to be true? Modern TCM is not Classiacal Chinese insight and sure not very daoist in content... the question one might want to ask is if the "jing" we lose as a usual person is the "jing" we lose as a practitioner... indicating the difference in its actual state of being...

[Taomeow]

Jing is not memory. It is not some jungian concept. Jing is energy, pure and simple.

 

Just a quickie for now, perhaps more later:

 

jing IS memory;

memory IS energy -- ordered energy as opposed to chaotic energy;

Jung and his concepts have nothing whatsoever to do with anything I was talking about. (I don't think much of him anyway, and if anyone says "Freud" on top of that, so help me, I'm gonna scream!)

 

I am a traditionalist by design, I don't care much for anything "new and improved," anything at all. I have two taoist teachers of unbroken lineage going nineteen generations back in the case of one and more than that in the case of the other. While I read enough to assert I'm familiar with most "taoist literature that has been translated into English and Russian" (and am learning Chinese in order to be eventually able to do better than that), much of what I know (not much, really, but more than enough for most taoist discussions that might ever take place in the 21st century...) is not from books. Of course when I say something that seems to contradict what you know you are welcome to take it or leave it depending on whether what I say resonates with what you perceive. However, in case it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm "very very very wrong" -- it might simply mean I'm "very very very differently cultivated."

 

By the way, I do practice female sexual alchemy, but I don't see how I could benefit from it if I didn't know that jing is memory and memory is ordered energy. What would be the use of cultivating something I don't understand (and I don't if I don't remember what it is -- I mean, in my every cell, not in my head!) that comes from I don't know where (and I don't if I don't remember -- I don't mean as a "concept," I mean just as pragmatically, doably, bodily, as you remember what moves to make in order to get your car keys -- and exactly your car keys, not someone else's car keys or some random piece of metal or wood or sh..t or 'pure energy' -- when you intend to take a ride...)?..

 

"The pattern of tao is motion, and the pattern of this motion is return." If you don't remember where your car keys are, moreover, if you don't remember you NEED a key to start a car, moreover, if you don't remember what a key IS, moreover, if you don't remember how to hold objects in your hand, moreover, if you don't remember you have a hand... and so on... then of course you can fully believe in your head that you're going on a journey when you sit behind the wheel and imagine stuff going by... only problem is, the car won't really start. Jing is your ability to start it... fully dependent on your ability to remember how. (Again, not in the head, and not as a "concept," whether Jungian or anyone else's, but as your own cellular memory attached to that of all life that went before -- in your body, and beyond and before your body... Jing ain't no chopped liver, you can't slap a label on it -- "energy, pure and simple" -- and have it pinned down. Nooooo waaaaay... Pure and simple energy is... what? What IS pure and simple energy?.. )

[xenolith]

I recognize much truth in meow's comments. Tao is all that is. All that is is connected to all that has been. We are part of all that is and all that has been. Experiencing one's self and experiencing all that is are the same experience. It's the experience of your self in context (the lonely belonging). Within this experience is the experience of all that has been. Memory. Cellular. Jing. Cellular memory = Jing...in the words of Spectrum...vewy intewesting! Given that I use Jing to facilitate experience of self (in the context of Tao) and my self is but the expression of an atomic fission chain that has propogated from the Tao, that chain is embedded in my self. Cellular. And is the tool to access that self. Memory. And the Tao. Yep. Jing.

 

Thank you for this contribution Taomeow. I've not understood much of your comments on this and related subjects, notably your "reptilian" association with CCO, which I expect to never understand, but were it not for my ignorance what would I have to look forward to? I respectfully ask that you continue to present us with illumination of such.

 

Love.

 

xeno

Edited February 16, 2007 by xenolith

[spyrelx]

A car starts because there is gasoline in it. With gasoline, it can run. Without it, it can't. That's why a car starts.

 

Write all the poetry you want. Believe what comforts you as you wither.

 

You want to know about jing, look to gasoline.

 

Thanks Trunk.

 

Sunshine, everything I said was pure taoist cannon. On this subject there is little disagreement between TCM and virtually all schools of taoist teaching.

 

Ryan, I gave you my best advice, I've no more to say in this thread.

[Trunk]

jing IS memory;

memory IS energy -- ordered energy as opposed to chaotic energy;

I'm curious as to how you experience that...

Do experience past events as you do your jing refinement?

... as the jing becomes more subtle and luminous, do the stored traces of past events reveal?

[Spectrum]

Rickson doesn't have sex b4 a fight...

 

Shamans have you fast from things, including sex, before visionquests...

 

Moses couldn't bust one out 3 days before he went up the mountain...(;o))

 

Taoist monks need juice to do fu; to prove it just excert yourself physically right after having sex; women are more definately wired different then men. In my experience once a certain "level" i.e. simply not getting in the way of their bodies natural cycles, i.e. observation and stillness; is attained it doesn't matter to much, chi gung for creating heat/etc, still works, cycling the loads seem to be the key for constant progress, it seems like the tan tien charge takes 3 days normal breath, less w/ chi gung breathing.

 

I think it's not so important that you think about "losing" anything; rather invest yourself wisely. Those gold coins are gonna get strung.

 

Spectrum

Edited February 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[sunshine]

Sunshine, everything I said was pure taoist cannon. On this subject there is little disagreement between TCM and virtually all schools of taoist teaching.

 

It might be the same words they use... but do they have the same meaning?

[Taomeow]

Seadog, Ryan, Sunshine, Xeno,

 

thanks for your generous words and your thoughts!

 

Trunk,

 

I'll have to dedicate a separate post to answering your question... maybe more than one, memory is looooong and vita brevis

 

Spyrelx,

 

jing is not "gas," if you follow the "taoist canon" (which is what exactly in you opinion, by the way? All major sects have their own, which other sects may or may not accept. The things they ALL accept, the common basics which I like to refer to every chance I get, are Hetu, Luoshu, I Ching, yin-yang, qi, ganying... and that's that. The rest is... one sect's canon and another sect's herecy. Go figure. There's taoists who believe Laozi was his own mother, I can give you the references. Is this canonical? Yes, believe it or not. There's others who accept him as a deity. Is this kosher? Absolutely. And still others don't think he ever lived to begin with. Is this the traditional view? Yes, every bit of it. Anyone who's after taoist wisdom better get ready to process more than one paradox! )

 

As I was saying, "gas" is not built into the very structure of the car, "gas" you can, and have to, keep replenishing. That's your metaphor for "postnatal qi," or just qi for short. The ignition, however, and the key that gets it to "come alive" (provided there's gas in the tank of course), IS the built-in structure... and that's your jing, or just "prenatal qi" for long. Now you want to replenish it instead of losing it -- sheesh, I wish it was as easy as replenishing "gas" in your car! but no... you have to know the overall maintenance of the overall car in order to begin to control your jing, there's no magic fluid you can put in (unlike the situation with gas) to "replenish" a busted ignition, a fried transmission... OK, I'm about to run out of car metaphors, I am fairly technophobic and utterly car-clueless, to tell you the truth... my son had to explain to me why I need a "tune up" for my car by resorting to the TCM metaphors I could understand ("it's like prevention, you know, it's like what you do for your body..." )

 

As for "withering away," that's the farthest thing from my personal intentions. I humbly but rather stubbornly follow the classic pursuit of the Three Treasures -- perfection, nondecay, immortality. To venture once again into the car metaphor, I make sure there's gas, I make sure I change the oil, I make sure I rotate the tires... and I make sure I remember where I put my car keys... ...without which all of the other steps would be useless hassle, don't you think?..

Edited February 16, 2007 by Taomeow

[Ian]

If one is engaged in too much sex, the problem is not sex, the problem is the distorted pathways (lost memory!) that cause one to mistakenly process needs, feelings and drives not sexual in their origin via sexual release. (E.g., anger. Forbid the physical expression of anger to a small child and the release will be sought later by other means. Or love. Deprive a small child of normal everyday physical contact expressing closeness, acceptance, love, and safety -- and the fulfillment of an unfulfilled need will be sought via sexual touch later, and misunderstood for sexual needs and feelings.)

 

Thank you. This really resonates. I wouldn't put it exactly this way just now, but nonetheless, I recognise something very true in that.

 

I have definitely been touch deficient at various stages. A few days after meeting my first girlfriend I started getting touch-echoes, replays in her absence of the sensation of being touched. It was freaky.

[riverheron]

 

I think it's not so important that you think about "losing" anything; rather invest yourself wisely. Those gold coins are gonna get strung.

 

Spectrum

 

I think these words are wise . . . Zhongxian Wu expressed to us in a retreat that he feels that there is too much emphasis put on the daoist sexual practices and loss of Jing in the teachings available to westerners. Basically, if you are worried about loosing Jing, then you may have a problem. Much has to do with your consciousness around your sexual energy . . . no worry = no problem. This resonates with me, because we are beings of consciousness. When we are in right relationship with life, then everything becomes our medicine. When we are out of alignment, all is poison.

 

Thanks all for the great thread!

[Spectrum]

Glad to see ya over here Blueheron.

[seadog]

Recently I viewed T.V. programme about cloning. What I found most fascinating was after those wacky scientists had finished their alchemy.They had to charge their little frankenstiens in tube with an electric shock to kick start the whole process.

Once I tried to start my chainsaw without a spark plug and even though it was full of petrol it just wouldn't start.

[Neijia]

Jing is not memory. It is not some jungian concept. Jing is energy, pure and simple. Though it is probably a misnomer to call jing "sexual energy", it is axiomatic in TCM that jing is connected and the source of your sexual energy and also that it can be lost, at least for men, through careless sexual practice.

 

I agree with that.

 

Also -

There seems to be some confusion about jing, chi, and shen.

 

Anyway... (Funny enough that you mention Lam Kam Chuen) I've been taught that there ARE ways to increase your jing. Various forms of chikung, standing and moving I Ch'uan, herbs and diet. And of course, sexual practice.

[xenolith]

meow, how 'bout adressing the "reptilian" thing...? Couldn't hurt, could only help is my thought. Either way, keep being you.

 

Love.

 

xeno

[soaring crane]

what a wonderful thread, thank you all for such wise insights!

 

Taomeow's words ring true to me and are similar to what my own teacher has expressed in his more candid moments.

 

The gas in the car image comes up often but I see it as inaccurate, regarding Jing or Qi. A car drives with the same power whether the tank is full or empty. This doesn't fit the lifeforce model where the power slowly recedes and then peters out. What's the difference between a car and a human? Shen.

 

I was taught to recognize Jing and Qi by their functions and to avoid trying to define them as entities unto themselves. So, the function of Jing is vey similar to the function of what western scientists call hormones and also dna. Ho hum. Are all the memories of the universe stored in our dna? Well, maybe. I think so, yes. And the dna spiral looks suspiciously like the spirals of qi that formed it...

[mbanu]

People will believe what they want to believe. The five colors blind the eye, after all.

 

The anology I've used for the jing/qi/shen thing is that it's like a candle.

 

Postnatal jing is like the wax, prenatal jing is like the wick, qi is like the flame, shen is like the smoke.

[Ryan McCoole]

[Spectrum]

I wish dynamic image tags were allowed. Iron Buffalo Attached.

[Ryan McCoole]

I wish dynamic image tags were allowed. Iron Buffalo Attached.

 

 

Spectrum, I love the 'gold coin quote', thank you again for your wisdom...I am the kind of guy who never gives up. I may stray off the path, but I see every hardship as a lesson to the Dao, and appreciate your words.

 

Nice picture, I tried searching for the Iron buffolo but nothing is coming up...could you exaplin this a little, I'd definitely be interested.

 

In the Dao,

 

 

 

-Ryan McCoole-