"The Secret" hits it bigtime!

[cloud recluse]

[quote name='freeform' date='Feb 27 2007, 03:13 AM' post='26476' Manifestation happens on the middle dan tien level - with upper and lower dan tiens providing the inspiration and the grounding necessary for it to 'happen'. But the western constitution is very much top heavy, with much of the energy stuck in the head - manifesting from this state brings about more illusion and more detachment from 'reality'.

 

 

Freeform,I really like your take on manifestation here ( By the way,I still stand by my own criticisms of The Secret in that original thread 8 months or so ago,though with less angry language ).I was wondering if you could expand on your point here a bit

 

Regards,Cloud

 

 

 

b. Does concentrating oneself on the fulfillment of material desire make one more prone to desire?

 

c. If so, is desire empowering or limiting?

 

Now THESE are some pertinent questions !!!

 

Try googling "Shaking Riches Out of the Cosmos" for an intersting article of the behind the scene politics of the movie

Edited March 12, 2007 by cloud recluse

[thaddeus]

I don't know much about this Secret, but I have a few questions for those who do.

 

1. Is it possible to manifest via the law of attraction without the power of concentration?

 

a. If so, is it possible to concentrate when one has many desires?

 

b. Does concentrating oneself on the fulfillment of material desire make one more prone to desire?

 

c. If so, is desire empowering or limiting?

I don't think manifesting via the law of attraction requires special powers of concentration. It's whatever you usually think about or naturally believe about reality that comes to you. It's something that's going on now.

I think fulfilling desire can be one way of eventually getting bored with it and moving on to other experiences.

T

[Yoda]

I don't know much about this Secret, but I have a few questions for those who do.

 

1. Is it possible to manifest via the law of attraction without the power of concentration?

 

a. If so, is it possible to concentrate when one has many desires?

 

b. Does concentrating oneself on the fulfillment of material desire make one more prone to desire?

 

c. If so, is desire empowering or limiting?

 

 

Per the theory, there are two components to the law of attraction. The first is "ask" which is what the above questions are focusing on and the second is "and ye shall receive". Most of us in the modern, westernized world we have got the ask part down cold--with plenty of concentration and focus. It's the yin/receiving side that is the issue. Our desires are allowed in by our beliefs that allow ourselves to feel good about our desires.

 

So if you desire a glass of water and feel good about it, a glass of water will manifest.

 

The problem with desiring a glass of water is that it isn't that much fun.

 

On the other extreme, a desire is too far out to be engaging at all... "I'd love to dance naked on the moon." Not much fun there either.

 

It's the territory between these examples that makes life fun and challenging where you don't believe that something is entirely possible but you want it anyways... That's where both the ask and receive elements come into play. If the high drive of the ask is balanced with the fun and bliss of allowing then you will have the fun you desire.

 

Here's an account of this by Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, when asked if he and Bill Gates reminisce about the days when they were hoping to have more than just a few employees (their goal was 35 full time employees):

 

"Yes, we always have a laugh because it's hard to explain the incredible level of fun we had. We talk about how Bill would sleep on the carpet at the office. The secretary would come in and see Bill's feet sticking out of the door. We were very hard-core. Our only recreational activity was going to the movies. And then we would program until two, three, or four in the morning and then we'd get up fairly late, go back, and do it again. We just loved it. We had a great time."

 

One thing to keep in mind, is that the real manifestation of consequence is the emotional flow, not the end goal.

 

To the extent that I have integrated this perspective, I have benefited by it. This perspective isn't vital, but the fun definitely is.

 

Yoda

[forestofsouls]

I don't think manifesting via the law of attraction requires special powers of concentration. It's whatever you usually think about or naturally believe about reality that comes to you. It's something that's going on now.

I think fulfilling desire can be one way of eventually getting bored with it and moving on to other experiences.

T

 

The reason I bring this up is because most of the manifesting I'm familiar with requires one to build up a certain emotional energy, focus clearly on the object, and then release. However, this method requires a certain amount of concentration. As such, it was not generally available to the public.

 

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"? I would add "Only if one is attentive."

[thaddeus]

The reason I bring this up is because most of the manifesting I'm familiar with requires one to build up a certain emotional energy, focus clearly on the object, and then release. However, this method requires a certain amount of concentration. As such, it was not generally available to the public.

 

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"? I would add "Only if one is attentive."

ahh, ok, you're looking at it from a technique perspective. I dunno, I don't think that technique works very well. You can concentrate all you want, and nothing is going to happen, but what you expect to happen what you fear and what you *feel* you deserve (as Yoda is alluding to) is usually what ends up happening imo from observing what's going on around me. I think people usually start with the technique you mention and then when it doesn't work, dig deeper to learn the real art of manifesting. I personally feel it's like the ocean, you may feel like you're navigating it, but its also controlling you at the same time. I think that is a fair analogy.

T

[forestofsouls]

 

One thing to keep in mind, is that the real manifestation of consequence is the emotional flow, not the end goal.

 

Yoda

 

I see, being open and receptive is the second part.

 

What do you mean by the emotional flow part?

[VCraigP]

I see, being open and receptive is the second part.

 

What do you mean by the emotional flow part?

 

Ah...there it is. I sat by the sidelines long enough til this question was asked.

 

Yoda. the formula is ASK...BELIEVE...RECEIVE.

 

Yang Yuan Yin

 

Active phase of desiring, getting clear on the desire and then asking.

 

Neutral phase of believing. This is where the emotional flow part comes in. You must set the feeling tone. Use the emotional set point to assess what your emotional state is. Where is your emotional state with regards to your desire. When you focus on the desire are you aware only of your excitement about the subject? If you dig deeper do you perhaps encounter some resistance? This is the step where you need to make your subconscious beliefs reveal themselves. If there is resistance you need to reveal it and release it or transform it. Perhaps there are other techniques which could be expanded upon in this area, but I believe that is the essence of it.

 

This is why the power of positive thinking is often just a veneer of ineffective mental energy set on top of a pile of undealt with psychic crud. Guess what, you still have to do the work to transform yourself and uncover your resistance, ie deal with your crud.

 

Finally the passive phase - Receive.

Let it happen. Maintain the emotional flow. Let your emotional set point reveal how in alignment you are.

 

My main point once again resonates with the comment that western people tend to be top heavy mentally driven types. If you are not experiencing your emotions and are shut off there I believe you may not have the guidance system to show you the way to manifest that which you desire you will be missing the middle step of the process.

 

So the real valuable characteristic is Emotional Intelligence. The question was asked "do you need to have developed powers of concentration?" I think you need to have developed powers of self inspection and emotional perception.

 

Craig

[Yoda]

This is why the power of positive thinking is often just a veneer of ineffective mental energy set on top of a pile of undealt with psychic crud.

 

Well put. I find that I often think that I'm excited about a particular desire and I pump myself up about it, etc but really I'm adding more nervous, edgy excitement rather than positive feeling excitement. Some degree of calmness and peace needs to be present, at least for me. So simply meditating more often is what helps the most for me.

[forestofsouls]

Even so, something sits very uneasily with me about the Secret. I think its the way it seems to spiritualize lust and greed, to make them seem almost healthy to want more wealth, sex, etc. for oneself.

 

Of course, the techniques themselves seem not too far afield from the classics. But I wonder what the price is for applying these toward spiritual, self-fulfilling ends.

[thaddeus]

Even so, something sits very uneasily with me about the Secret. I think its the way it seems to spiritualize lust and greed, to make them seem almost healthy to want more wealth, sex, etc. for oneself.

 

Of course, the techniques themselves seem not too far afield from the classics. But I wonder what the price is for applying these toward spiritual, self-fulfilling ends.

agreed...you might enjoy reading up on kabbalah if you haven't already. a big part of it is about receiving in order to share, not for the self alone. pretty enlightening..

T

[Yoda]

Even so, something sits very uneasily with me about the Secret. I think its the way it seems to spiritualize lust and greed, to make them seem almost healthy to want more wealth, sex, etc. for oneself.

 

Of course, the techniques themselves seem not too far afield from the classics. But I wonder what the price is for applying these toward spiritual, self-fulfilling ends.

 

 

I agree that the Secret stays at a very superficial level of intention, but that's the level where most people are interested in its application at the present time. In the future, that will change. I believe that the material will always remain within a selfishness based paradigm, as that is a key part of the message.

 

Imo, the problem with having an altruism based map is that it doesn't fit the terrain very well. It seems to me that every biologically based entity down to their very organs, cells, and mitochondria is selfish and if you don't honor that perspective you start floating around feeling bad about not being very selfless and moral and will be too easily influenced by authority figures. Honoring selfishness allows you to accept and honor the workings of the world around you and gives you traction to deal with the reality of the now and to slowly mold those habits of feelings in a more compassionate direction for the selfish purpose of feeling better, spreading joy, etc.

 

The selfishness perspective relies on one's feelings, vs an altruistic system often relies on authority figures and only honors nice, heart-based feelings and leaves most emotions from the kidneys and so forth outside the system. The secret behind the secret is to value all of one's feelings above other people's opinions.

 

Honor your kidneys before your mother and father and you are on the right track.

 

Jmo,

 

Yoda

[Ian]

 

Imo, the problem with having an altruism based map is that it doesn't fit the terrain very well. It seems to me that every biologically based entity down to their very organs, cells, and mitochondria is selfish and if you don't honor that perspective you start floating around feeling bad about not being very selfless and moral and will be too easily influenced by authority figures. Honoring selfishness allows you to accept and honor the workings of the world around you and gives you traction to deal with the reality of the now and to slowly mold those habits of feelings in a more compassionate direction for the selfish purpose of feeling better, spreading joy, etc.

 

The selfishness perspective relies on one's feelings, vs an altruistic system often relies on authority figures and only honors nice, heart-based feelings and leaves most emotions from the kidneys and so forth outside the system. The secret behind the secret is to value all of one's feelings above other people's opinions.

 

 

Thank you. I really like this.

 

I also really like the idea that you need a happy relaxed, embodied state to do the manifesting, as I reckon that in such a state you won't want much and what you do want will be pretty reasonable.

 

For me the biq question about this sort of thing is "What has to happen for it to work?" For example, suppose I want a pack of 1970s Top Trumps Cards, Military Planes. I get all relaxed and happy and picture how nice it would be to hold them in my hot little hand. And such is my relaxation that a powerful message flashes to cosmic central.

 

BUT, the only remaining pack belongs to a family in New Zealand. And for it to come to me can only be arranged by a series of awful disasters befalling a whole chain of people. I find the pack in front of my house a few days later, and none the wiser, think "Goodness this manifesting is a jolly wheeze. Now for those missing Pete Loveday comics." But unbeknownst to me I've saddled myself with the karmic payload of having maimed and killed a whole bunch of former Top Trumps owners.

 

Silly example, obviously. But I hope it illustrates the point that one should be very careful about "asking for" anything which doesn't have an unobstructed chain of supply. Because the responsibility is no-one else's.

 

Eldritch organ music please, as the man said.

[Yoda]

Ian,

 

Per the theory, your awareness of the scarcity of the commodity would probably crimp locking on to the signal in the first place... how excited can you be that the hope diamond will show up on your doorstep? But the emotional state that the manifestation will create is available to you and if you start to abide in that state, external manifestations that will be even more pleasing to you would show up. Per the theory, expecting even more happiness and love is the ultimate payoff.

 

This is most often asked in the context where one is in love with another who is already taken. The answer is often to fantasize the state where he/she/it is yours and there you are. Shortly thereafter, one who exactly matches your new vibration will show up.

 

Even occasionally, the spouse or comic book owner will die and you'll score exactly what you are looking for.

 

Per the theory, this is fine too as death is a natural, positive, and even enjoyable aspect of life. Nobody can harm anyone else in this worldview--it's their own karmic impulses that line them up with their own manifestations and the whole birth, dying and comic book distribution process between beings takes place without a hitch...

 

In kidney-speak, it's "Kill them all and let God sort it out," but Krishna's exact message was that you aren't really killing them--it's their own karma and they don't die anyways plus it all works out fine in the end... so fuck em up.

 

Who was Arjuna's counterpart on the other side? I forget his name. Radheya? I cried when Arjuna killed him. But Krishna was right, it did turn out alright in the end.

 

Yoda

 

PS perhaps the best example of manifesting external objects are the things that you almost don't even know you want... maybe a corner piece of a bulletin board that has occurred to you a few times would be nice to have back... you don't feel any lack by its absence, and you are able to tune into how nice it would be to have it back, and then it just shows up a few days later. Or that you would like to be in a nicer mood over the next few minutes and you are able to pull it off or that you desire to feel even better tomorrow... applications like that is really what it's all about. Lot's of people want to test it out on the subjects that they have the most desire and negativity tied into it--I want to triple my income this year, eradicate my allergies, make my kid brilliant in math, feel twice as good tomorrow, etc. Short of dying, it's nearly impossible to change your vibration that quickly on any particular subject. Best to start more modestly and know that there is a compounding effect throughout eternity that is one your side... maybe you'll be born into the comic book family next time around and all the other collectors will be praying for your early demise? By then ebay will have upon demise type auctions so you can really torture them!!

[thaddeus]

Per the theory, your awareness of the scarcity of the commodity would probably crimp locking on to the signal in the first place...

spot on!

[freeform]

Freeform,I really like your take on manifestation here ( By the way,I still stand by my own criticisms of The Secret in that original thread 8 months or so ago,though with less angry language laugh.gif ).I was wondering if you could expand on your point here a bit smile.gif

 

Regards,Cloud smile.gif

 

 

sorry for getting back to you so late - i've been away with no internet access.

 

what I mean by 'manifestation happens on the heart level' is actually tied to what VCraigP said in his last post. I'll explain how in a bit. The whole abundance mentality is 'heart based' - there is more than enough love for everyone - translate 'love' into whatever resource you want (may I suggest Top Trump cards as a starting point )

 

craig said - ASK...BELIEVE...RECEIVE. - Yang Yuan Yin...

 

for me ask= head.... believe = heart.... and recieve = belly.

 

ask by using sensory representations in your head (imagination) - believe by noticing emotional responses to what you asked - (most of the work is done at this level). and recieve involves being present and intuitive to allow your body to be in the correct space/time to recieve.

 

actually at the same time there is a mirror process that goes on - receive, belly - believe, heart and ask - head. this is hard to explain in words, but you can feel it... it rests on the principle that everything is perfect the way it is -

 

it involves being centred in the belly while visualising having what you want... being connected to everyone else while using your emotions from the heart... and being sensoraly aware from the mind when recieving.

 

if you try to manifest only from one centre - (from the mind for most of us) then you will inveriably create more illusion. It's quite simple - if you want to be rich there is a simple, repeatable n.l.p. based process that you can do to feel fantastically rich in minutes - but once you settle down you'll realise it's all in the head.

 

so if you notice that if you do the normal ask, believe, recieve process and notice the reverse/ mirror process the heart/believe align - the surface role of the heart is about emotion in the moment, the deeper role of the heart is connection to all of humanity... manifesting with both of these roles present makes for the most successful (ecological) results.

 

 

the yin/recieve phase is also an important and much overlooked part... once you've had your emotion/'connection to humanity' give energy to your desire, you need to get into a receptive, yin state. this is hard when you feel strong emotion about your desire.

 

the key is to release all desire and expectation... I do it like this - first think about having what you desire, fully associate with it... then think about not having what you desire, fully associate that... then again think about having... then switch to not having... speed up and keep going back and forth having -> not hvaing -> having -> not hvaing etc... after a while it will feel exactly the same when you think about having as when you think about not having... at this point you can just relax into your belly and smile... then it's about following your intuition (noticing where your belly 'moves' you).

 

 

Ian - "What has to happen for it to work?"

 

well that's a very mental question and your imagined result is also a rather mental experiment. Manifestation can never really happen when you do it from the head. the head sees limits, while the heart is unlimited and the belly is everything... Cause and effect is a very mental phenomenon - what if all your beliefs about cause and effect were wrong? - what if everything happened spontaniously, without something causing it to happen... that's how it all works if you're aware from the heart and belly and it's no more right or wrong than the cause and effect model created by the mind.

 

whatever happens as a result of your manifestation is exactly the most perfect outcome - it cant be any other way... with manifestation you always get exactly what you need... and it's always exactly the perfect experience for your spiritual growth...

[Yoda]

Freeform,

 

Very interesting angle... thanks!

 

Yoda

[forestofsouls]

 

For me the biq question about this sort of thing is "What has to happen for it to work?" For example, suppose I want a pack of 1970s Top Trumps Cards, Military Planes. I get all relaxed and happy and picture how nice it would be to hold them in my hot little hand. And such is my relaxation that a powerful message flashes to cosmic central.

 

It's been suggested that the first victims of our actions are ourselves.

 

My experience with this has been like so: I want something. It churns and churns inside. I get it. Temporary bliss. Then I want something else. There's that wanting again. Repeat. Every time I give into that wanting, it grows little stronger by force of habit. Just like rubbing on stone: one rub doesn't do much, but a lot of rubbing and you have a groove. It may become such a habit, like driving to work, that I don't even need to pay attention to it. My mind can wander and dream about all the things it wants while my body chases after them.

 

Not a good thing, imo.

[Yoda]

Forestofsouls,

 

I might be misunderstanding your vibe, but fighting desire is like fighting the force of gravity, don't you think?

 

Yoda

[forestofsouls]

Forestofsouls,

 

I might be misunderstanding your vibe, but fighting desire is like fighting the force of gravity, don't you think?

 

Yoda

 

 

If you fight it dead on, then yes. I like Vivekananda's description of the mind: he says its like a monkey, which is inherently jumpy and restless. But this monkey happened to get drunk off wine. Then he was stung by a scorpion, so he's poisoned. To make matters worse, a demon has entered and possessed the monkey's body. *

 

Now you can't just sit the monkey down and expect him to stay. But do you really want to give him some more wine?

 

I'm not saying we should go head to head with desire straight on. But I don't think we should just give into it either. I DO believe that the mind is like a tree, a muscle, or an animal is that it grows slowly, over time, according to the conditions around it. If you have a flabby muscle, you can't just lift weights for three days straight and have muscle. But you can develop it, over time, through the use of resistance.

 

So with desire, I wouldn't suggest, for myself or others, to quit everything cold turkey. But I am apt to do things that turn down the flames, such as concentrating on the present moment and following a simple moral code. Or to watch my desires as they develop, grow, and dissipate, so that I may understand them more.

 

I just see things like the Secret throwing more fuel into the fire, that's all.

 

 

 

 

 

* The analogy being for Vivekandanda, the wine represents desire, the poison jealousy, and the demon, pride.

[Leidee]

I think a lot is made of how society has become more materialistic but, if you scratch beneath the surface a little bit, the question becomes: how much of this "materialism" is driven more by the concept of scarcity?

 

If you don't think there is enough to go around, you are going to grab everything you can. You aren't going to question it too deeply because you are concerned just to get "it" before "it" is all gone!

 

So whilst I agree that The Secret does on a surface level seem to mostly deal with the material, I think it does something far more important: it says there is ENOUGH. Whatever you want, there is enough of. If there is enough, then what is the panic? Once you remove the panic then people have room to breath, to think, to meditate, to consider and to grow.

 

Maybe I have a naive belief in people, but I feel that once people realise that there is ENOUGH and that they don't have to be a part of the rat race trying to get "it" before "it" goes, then people will consider things on other levels, including accessing the law of attraction to not only help themselves but to assist other people

[Ian]

I'm not saying we should go head to head with desire straight on.

 

You can't fight it, but you can starve it.

[Yoda]

I think Leidee's point is excellent and maybe it also addresses the desire angle... if there's no scarcity and everything is cool, and one begins to believe that at a very basic level, then there's no need to cling to desires and their fruitions and one's whole energy flow works more effectively due to the naturally arising detachment spoken of by the great masters like Vivekananda.

 

I think the traditional way that the masters used to teach was to load up their disciples with the hardcore disciplines... the hairshirt route... and then bring in the grooviness of energy practice and meditation and then they sorted everything out on an intellectual level at that point. Discipline, samadhi, then prajna.

 

I think the new way is to expose people to as much grooviness through uplifting paradigms and meditation then allow the discipline to come up naturally when as one attains enough samadhi and prajna. (Using the language from the excellent Bodri article I just found in the other thread.)

 

I'm sure many of us have impaled ourselves on the discipline path more than once to know that there may be some merit to approaching the challenge from other angles.

[Peregrino]

[VCraigP]

[forestofsouls]

I think Leidee's point is excellent and maybe it also addresses the desire angle... if there's no scarcity and everything is cool, and one begins to believe that at a very basic level, then there's no need to cling to desires and their fruitions and one's whole energy flow works more effectively due to the naturally arising detachment spoken of by the great masters like Vivekananda.

 

There is still scarcity. All the money and power in the world won't add a second onto your life. Even chi kung and tai chi masters die of degenerative diseases. This goes to the core of the whole Buddha myth: he had everything he wanted materially, but he still could not escape sickness, old age, and death. They not only come for us, but they come for those around us. Whether we like them or not.

 

Also, I wonder if there is enough to go around. We may live in rich countries, but look at the impoverishment of so much of the world that makes that possible.