Looking for tips on how to stop looking for tips

[miltownkid]

Hey all,

 

Looks like I'm forced to post here before posting anywhere else. So I've been a "Daoist" for quite a bit of time. For me that essentially means I have been somewhat "religiously" drawing insight from the DDJ and merging it with experience from life and taichi practice.

 

It seems to have "taken me far" in the 20 some odd years of keeping it up. The most recent "daoist wall" I've run into (I've run into many) has turned me to Buddhism (something I never paid much attention to). I think something about the structure is alluring in compared to the practically structure-less practice I've engaged in for so long.

 

I've been "aware" of the "comedy of reality" for a long while, but wasn't sure what to do with it, so opted to do nothing and get caught up in the currents. Seems as though a "white watery" section of life has come to a calm allowing me to once again reflect. During this past stage of life I was somewhat obsessed with the idea of creating a system for making and completing goals (funny work for a daoist but... is there any other kind?) My somewhat obsessive nature led to setting all kinds of goals and doing all kinds of crazy things... good times.

 

I got an "epiphany" once getting into calmer waters. I had a flashback to a time when my life was in "external" turmoil, but I was "internally" serenely enjoying the "work" I was engaged in. Seeing that slice in time led me to REALLY understanding a quote I thought I already understood (like so many things I've thought I've understood in the past and will continue to think I understand going into the future):

 

Life is the journey, not the destination.

 

I already intuitively knew this to be true, but the illusion of life would get me sucked into chasing proverbial carrots and missing the roses. I started to see that the goal was to enjoy NOW (as much as now can be enjoyed) on the way to an "illusionary" goal which could never be attained (yes, in common communication things can be gotten, but they're INSTANTLY replaced with new goals once gone, the process is never ending).

 

This created a shift in how I started approaching the goals I had and eventually led me back to a goal I abandoned long ago... "enlightenment." (Note: The reason I abandoned enlightenment was more practical as my understanding of it at the time, lets say, got me into trouble.)

 

Seriously revisiting enlightenment after having spent so many years reflecting on the DJJ (and of course other supplementary works) has been quite refreshing. My mind has been well trained in the art of thinking in paradox, so much of what I would have been confused with in the past is kind of like "Yep."

 

I'm kind of back where I started in that I'm looking for a "vehicle for enlightenment." I kind of fell into (Theravada) Buddhism and have been happy with the basic practices and reading thus far. I'm dabbling with the idea of "no-self" (actually, it makes clear sense to me) and want to exercise it further.

 

In one of the books on Theravada Buddhism I picked up I ran into this line:

 

"We only lose sight of unity, it never leaves us."

 

It had a pretty profound effect on me (although with the words that proceeded it. ) "Seeing" this unity also seems to be where we see that we aren't...

 

All this being said, I don't think I'm looking for any particular insights or answers right now. I do have a question though. What do you think is good work for cultivating "the state"? I try to avoid using words like good and bad, but there certainly seems to be "skillful" and "not-skillful" work for working on this stuff, especially at the beginning stages.

 

I feel like the work should fall into one of two categories:

1. Effortless (at least that's how it feels)

2. Simple (Requires no thoughts, just doing, like sweeping)

 

This is all because I've been recently trying my hand as a freelance writer and have articles I should be working on. Came here and posted this instead.

 

Perhaps freelancing writing is OK and I just need to listen to my nature about this particular job... lol Living and learning...

[Spotless]

This is an extraordinary space that you have reached and the very way you carry the day is of the utmost importance - yet nothing supports the delicate balance except your stillness.

 

How to be still without the objective of stillness?

 

This is a time when your story drops away - whole chunks of you fade - you have not let go - you have not released them - they just are no more.

 

I have found mechanical means very effective at this time - Fasting, Qi Gong, Breathing, Movies (yes - I said that), wordless music.

 

How you go to sleep is important to look at -- go to sleep well - the last hour entering your mind should be of a high alchemy.

What you take in prior to sleep will be with you for the night. This may seem small - but at this time it is Very important - you are looking for a sustained and authentic stillness - well started sleep is like adding 1/3 of your day to practice with no effort at all.

 

If you have not done any Qi Gong I suggest you take it up - at this leg it is phenomenally useful - and you do not need to read one page of information - just do the basic exercises pretty much without knowing anything, the effects will take place very quickly. (I say this because while I have a Shaolin master teaching me - he does not speak a word of English and for the first 6 months I just followed his movements. I did come equipped with quite a bit of awareness so I could see the energy and feel it - but it sounds like you are probably there as well - at least in spirit).

 

All the very best!

Edited April 13, 2013 by Spotless

[Wu Ming Jen]

You sound very balanced to me,practical, taking care of what needs to be done at the time. I have been enjoying Turning the Light around for practice. Just bringing the awareness inside, no effort, all things empty of attachment and having a good sound feeling, then I get back to my very busy and full of responsibility position. At this time the method helps me keep my mind still in a busy environment and I tend to make good decisions which shows up financially.

[lienshan]

Looking for tips on how to stop looking for tips

 

Don't offer tips is my tip

[Samurai Mountain man]

I'm kind of back where I started in that I'm looking for a "vehicle for enlightenment." I kind of fell into (Theravada) Buddhism and have been happy with the basic practices and reading thus far. I'm dabbling with the idea of "no-self" (actually, it makes clear sense to me) and want to exercise it further.

 

Dude, there's so much buzz going on around your post, you're trying and trying. Why not stop that? try no more,stop filling your cup. ya dig? it's spilling all over your lap.

 

It's like, you know all this stuff and you've read this much and you're practicing all of this Taichi. Why? The harder you look for enlightment the harder it'll come.

 

when was the last time you contemplated your breath? like the important shit behind it: oxygen gets in - Carbon dioxide gets out that's what's real, that's what's important. Ever heard the saying: Waste not, want not? Well it's actually the other way arround.

[miltownkid]

Dude, there's so much buzz going on around your post, you're trying and trying. Why not stop that? try no more,stop filling your cup. ya dig? it's spilling all over your lap.

 

It's like, you know all this stuff and you've read this much and you're practicing all of this Taichi. Why? The harder you look for enlightment the harder it'll come.

 

when was the last time you contemplated your breath? like the important shit behind it: oxygen gets in - Carbon dioxide gets out that's what's real, that's what's important. Ever heard the saying: Waste not, want not? Well it's actually the other way arround.

 

I've kind of taken "not trying" to it's limit (for me for now) and throwing things in reverse, won't be surprised if I end up back there (I suppose I'm trying to not try, but to be "skillful" about it this time around). I just like taichi and martial arts, I was into that stuff before the enlightenment stuff. When I sit ("meditating") I'm usually contemplating the breath.

 

I think when I stopped looking for enlightenment it was because of how hard I was looking for it. Now I'm seeing it as being something a lot more effortless than I previously thought (like it's available right here and now). That said, there still seems to be work that needs to be done to get me to see that there's no work that needs to be done.

 

Don't offer tips is my tip

 

That's a solid tip! lol

 

You sound very balanced to me,practical, taking care of what needs to be done at the time. I have been enjoying Turning the Light around for practice. Just bringing the awareness inside, no effort, all things empty of attachment and having a good sound feeling, then I get back to my very busy and full of responsibility position. At this time the method helps me keep my mind still in a busy environment and I tend to make good decisions which shows up financially.

 

Thanks for the comment on being balanced. Practicality and responsibility are new additions to my "art of living." I think I used to use (my perceived) inherent "emptiness" of things as an excuse to kind of "do whatever" (within "reason"). Now I see that I was approaching "spiritual things" no different than the material things I've been so averse to. Was doing work to get something. Something recently changed making me want to be a "functioning member of society." It's probably just the realization that this is the reality of my situation... lol No point in daydreaming about being a hermit. I live in a city and have to do city things with city people.

 

Is "turning the light around" a particular meditation technique, or just chilling in stillness?

 

This is an extraordinary space that you have reached and the very way you carry the day is of the utmost importance - yet nothing supports the delicate balance except your stillness.

 

How to be still without the objective of stillness?

 

This is a time when your story drops away - whole chunks of you fade - you have not let go - you have not released them - they just are no more.

 

I have found mechanical means very effective at this time - Fasting, Qi Gong, Breathing, Movies (yes - I said that), wordless music.

 

How you go to sleep is important to look at -- go to sleep well - the last hour entering your mind should be of a high alchemy.

What you take in prior to sleep will be with you for the night. This may seem small - but at this time it is Very important - you are looking for a sustained and authentic stillness - well started sleep is like adding 1/3 of your day to practice with no effort at all.

 

If you have not done any Qi Gong I suggest you take it up - at this leg it is phenomenally useful - and you do not need to read one page of information - just do the basic exercises pretty much without knowing anything, the effects will take place very quickly. (I say this because while I have a Shaolin master teaching me - he does not speak a word of English and for the first 6 months I just followed his movements. I did come equipped with quite a bit of awareness so I could see the energy and feel it - but it sounds like you are probably there as well - at least in spirit).

 

All the very best!

 

Thanks for your reply. I do know a qigong set and I should add it to my daily practice. Definitely couldn't hurt. Could you expand on the sleep part a bit more? Are you saying that I should be sure to "shut down" before sleeping as to take practice with me in my slumber (shut down is in quotes, I mean... try not to watch a slasher movie or something before bed. )

 

How do you utilize fasting?

 

Thanks everybody!

[lienshan]

That's a solid tip! lol

 

Yeah - that's the way of no doing (wu wei in the taoist terminology)

 

The practice of no offering tips gives rise to a no looking for tips behavior.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Looking for tips on how to stop looking for tips

 

Good advice already here, to which I'll add:

 

Just say "I don't know" and be okay with that, without making a new tip out of it.

 

Wu wei is mostly to do with ordering things, imo. These tips order your way of thinking about or doing things. We can't order everything, so best to learn how to be okay with that. This takes humility too, to accept that we are not in control. It can also take quite a bit of courage to have humility, strange as that sounds..

Edited April 14, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Samurai Mountain man]

That said, there still seems to be work that needs to be done to get me to see that there's no work that needs to be done.

 

Yes, yes yes. lol isn't wonderful? You'll get the hang of it when you get the hang of it, and you're no longer hanging to it! haha!

[miltownkid]

Thanks for all the feedback bros (girls aren't int Daoism right? lol) While I initially saw a bunch of the parallels between Daoism and Buddhism (any variety) I think my brain was working out of the "rough spots" in the background. Feels like all the snags have been processed and I'm looking forward to my new life as a Daoist-Buddhist.

 

I've gotten pretty good about (daoist) not caring about things (and not caring if I care ). This Buddhist stuff seems to be giving me new angles to process (with or without my "daoist glasses" on).

 

Now I'm back to my happy Daoist self of not caring about enlightenment while I'll walk Buddha's path to getting "(t)here" (precepts, 8 fold path, meditation, etc.) If asked why, I could counter "why not?" But instead I'll say I feel as though it's good training for "skillful living" (which is what I feel Daoism, at it's core, is pretty much all about).

 

Thanks again for the tip-less tips.

[Stosh]

Its also about avoiding artiface , isnt it?

[thelerner]

I feel like the work should fall into one of two categories:

1. Effortless (at least that's how it feels)

2. Simple (Requires no thoughts, just doing, like sweeping)

 

This is all because I've been recently trying my hand as a freelance writer and have articles I should be working on. Came here and posted this instead.

 

Perhaps freelancing writing is OK and I just need to listen to my nature about this particular job... lol Living and learning...

Welcome to the board. I think your experience echoes many here. Looking at 'systems' and ending up with simplicity.

One of our old members became a free lance writer. She's written some good articles on the trials and tribulations of it. She hasn't posted here lately, but here is her blog: http://yaelwrites.com/

Edited April 22, 2013 by thelerner

[miltownkid]

Its also about avoiding artiface , isnt it?

 

Which "it"? Before you clarify, I'll go ahead and assume you mean "being a daoist sage"?

 

I remember spending much time reflecting on cleverness. One must be careful with translations of the ddj and one must apply what one interprets to life and see the results what are produced for oneself. That said, the passages that allude toward something of an "unskillfulness" about being clever really seem to be pointing toward the intent behind the cleverness more than the cleverness itself. And this isn't about "good" clever vs. "bad" clever. I'd look at it more like "natural" clever (which attempts, without attempting, to follow the way) vs clever intent on doing something (instead of being intent on doing nothing. )

 

If you look to nature you'll see all kinds of clever. I think that natural cleverness from nature isn't the clever which was being discussed in the ddj (when referred to in a more "negative" light). I think the same can be said of the natural cleverness of the human mind being used in a "skillful" manner (a manner aspiring to sagacity). This can be a slippery slope as the mind is pretty clever at getting one to think one is whatever one needs to be to start being clever again. Perhaps it's good to experience a period of time totally void of cleverness for training... I don't know.

 

Here's Chapter 45 from Red Pine (I like his translation):

 

The greatest thing seems incomplete yet it never wears out

the fullest thing seems empty yet it never runs dry

the straightest thing seems crooked

 

the cleverest thing seems clumsy

the richest thing seems poor

 

activity overcomes cold

stillness overcomes heat

who can be perfectly still is able to govern the world

 

Much of my interpretation of Daoism alludes to hiding skill and clanking like rocks. I went through a period of time when I thought the much of what the ddj was trying to convey could be totally put on it's head dependent on the state of the world. I also wouldn't mind taking a glance at the Chinese to work on my "own" interpretation from that (Red Pine's translation has Chinese with it, just don't have the physical copy with me at the moment).

 

All I know is I've done a good job of cultivating that clumsy clever flavor. And I should be doing a good job of exuding it here as well. What's more clumsy to a daoist than someone who's visibly clever. lol

[Samurai Mountain man]

All I know is I've done a good job of cultivating that clumsy clever flavor. And I should be doing a good job of exuding it here as well. What's more clumsy to a daoist than someone who's visibly clever. lol

 

Well I am not a very clever man, I don't see myself being very clever anyways. And this is not some weird form of ego-stroking faux humility; I honestly wish I was a little sharper. But oh well, I am a yang to a Yin and a Yin to a Yang.

 

So every day I have to stop myself from trying to be clever, Im a pretty blunt tool and that doesn't go away by forcing myself into being sharp. Kinda like wanting to cut down a tree with a maul. Maybe and after many days of hard labour you can crush it's trunk untill the bastard falls down but you still haven't "cut it down".

 

See what I mean? Im thinking "well that's a pretty clever example" but it's so elaborated, it reeks of trying-too-hard. Same lesson applies to every little thing you do in life. It's not about giving up and not giving your best into changing something, it's a whole different thing, a different approach at the "changing" bit, a meaning you understand or you dont.

 

And so it is the Tao, the harder you try to understand it the more indecipherable it becomes. then understanding (as microscopic as it might be) begins by accepting things as they are and as they might be; then you begin to peel away the layers of judgement and the terms of your acceptance thus making things clearer and clearer.

 

When you no longer accept through your terms, you no longer see with your own eyes, thus you are accepting as it really is...

[miltownkid]

When you no longer accept through your terms, you no longer see with your own eyes, thus you are accepting as it really is...

 

I am what I am and that's all that I am. I think Popeye had it all sorted.

 

I used to wish I wasn't so clever. Just seems to get me in trouble (like times in the past spent thinking about elaborate conspiracy theories because the mind liked them and thought it was clever).

 

I've always looked at the "Dao" somewhat like I look at taichi. It's not really something you understand as much as you do. Doing it more leads to a deeper understanding, but you don't get that understanding from talking or thinking about it, you get it from practice. That said, I'm a lot more comfortable telling people how to do taichi than I am telling them how to "Dao" (unless it because the next dance craze).

[Stosh]

^{Unlike many I would say cleverness is a natural trait for some folks , and it can be an expedient tool for all sorts of purposes.}

^{But the downside is when ones mental convolutions end up being actually a detriment , as in, when someone puts on a persona that they are not.}

^{Because if one's persona is liked , one doent know if thier genuine self is liked or whether its just the persona, the same goes for dislike.}

 

^{As far as Sageliness , again I am not traditional , I consider the Sage to be a literary device devised to demonstrate the validity of principals taken to an extreme, (and the prinicipals are just as valid in the implied reverse logic ,, so there are times when a persona is certainly the advantageous thing to present and the same goes for effort investment etc etc )}

^{If I find out what I want to know it really isnt important whether I am percieved as clever or clumsy.}

 

^{As far as the stillness overcoming heat , the reverse is just as valid ,}

^{the point is- that the things have a relationship which can be contrary to normal expectation.}

^{But thats just my opinion- not the concensus's.}

Edited April 23, 2013 by Stosh

[Samurai Mountain man]

I agree with Stosh.

 

It's like bringing a sword to a gun fight. There's a time and a place for everything, learning to adapt oneself through resolve and flexiblity is better than to master a single thing and then be left clueless when we're facing a situation not suited for our rigid school of thought.

 

So knowing is not enough, we must apply at all times. Take a second to think about what you have to do and check that big book of ours called brain, asking: "What do I know that I can apply?" the esscence of which is then to become fuel for doing, and later for non-doing. This is more useful when we're facing the tough times and the hard choises, when things are looking grim or way too much to handle that's where all the sage quotes really come into play when you apply them and you understand them on a whole new level -the practical one- and as you do this, they become part of you, this wisdom is absorbed and it fills the voids left by your ego and empties the fullness of your ego.

 

Understanding the ego is a mental construct and a coping mechanism that must be kept in check, you hack it away until all that remains of it is the useful bits.

 

Take whatever wisdom you can use from anywhere you can find it, wisdom is not heavy, it does not occupy spaces and it will not drag you down. Take as much as you like, it is an infinite well that does not dry up, share it as you can, there's plenty for all. Just like Tao.

[miltownkid]

"Figured out" Daoist Immortality (like, I'm immortal now style).

 

This book put the finishing touches on all the work I've done with Daoism, Taichi, Science, Math and Buddhism (plus a ton of other "random" things):

http://www.amazon.com/No-Boundary-Eastern-Approaches-Personal/dp/1570627436

 

Here are two recent blog posts from my perspective (well at those "times").

 

http://caseyabbottpayne.blogspot.tw/

 

http://mentalhealthprotocol.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/the-ill-mind-of-miltown/

 

Thanks for all the help. I won't be coming back, but I'm easy to find if anyone ever wanted to.

 

peace love one

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

So... my question is which Milwaukee are you from? "Mine" is the one by Clackamas

[Stosh]

I guess he found out how to stop looking for tips.

[miltownkidZEE]

Told you I wasn't coming back! lol

 

I think I'll have to visit all of the Milwaukee's of the world to make me completely from Milwaukee. This is the next one on the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukie,_Oregon

 

@Stosh, you are correct sir. I did.

 

peace love one and have fun

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

HAW! where you from, really? if not Oregon, then damn! lol

[miltownkidZEE]

HAW! where you from, really? if not Oregon, then damn! lol

 

This I isn't from anywhere. Casey/miltownkid/miltownkidZEE are/were from Milwaukee, WI.

 

Born and raised until 21, then raised in Taiwan until 27, then raised some more in Milwaukee until 33, then freedom mode unlocked in the Philippines: http://miltownkid.com/2013/04/25/born-in-the-philippines/

 

Didn't fully wake up from the freedom mode until I was back in Taiwan though... Go figure. (Physical body mode is in Taiwan as he types this.)

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

oh yes, lots of fun!