eternal Tao? No way!

[lienshan]

The last two charaters of the first line are 恆道 traditionally translated as "eternal Tao".

 

恆 means "eternal" in modern chinese but it had another meaning in Pre-Qin time.

The change of meaning can be dated to Qin or very early Han time this way:

 

恆 is the name of hexagram 32 in the Book of Changes (I Ching).

恆我 "I/us" was the name of hexagram 32 in the exavacated Mawangdui version.

 

Both "eternal I" and "eternal us" are pure nonsense.

"independent I" and "independent us" make sense and match the chapter 25 endlines:

 

man is ruled by earth

earth is ruled by heaven

heaven is ruled by Tao

Tao is ruled by self-igniting

 

自燃 (zi ran) translated as "self-igniting" explained grammatically:

自 meant "self" and preceeded in pre-Qin chinese always a verb.

燃 meant as a verb "to burn/to ignite".

 

Yeah ... I know that grammar is booooooring to most of you

[三江源]

what is the difference between self igniting, and eternal?

[lienshan]

self-igniting is an answer to how? and eternal is an answer to when?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

自燃 (zi ran) translated as "self-igniting" explained grammatically:

 

自 meant "self" and preceeded in pre-Qin chinese always a verb.

燃 meant as a verb "to burn/to ignite".

 

Yeah ... I know that grammar is booooooring to most of you

 

Ancient Chinese grammar is sometimes fascinating to me, but we are certainly among the few here, understandably..

 

Where are you getting 燃 for zi ran? From what I see, even the Guodian slips had just 然.

[lienshan]

I found the character in the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary defining 然.

 

燒也從火肰聲臣鉉等曰今俗別作燃蓋後人增加 (the sixth character from behind)

 

自燃 was probably the usual way to say "self-igniting" when referring to the physical process?

自然. was if so a way so say "self-igniting" indicating, that it must be read not litterally but as a metaphor!

Edited April 14, 2013 by lienshan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It may help to look at more uses of 然 for example:

 

當然 = to be as + ran = only natural; as it should be; certainly; of course; without doubt

突然 = sudden + ran = suddenly

 

It appears after a word to mean "in the way of" the word preceding it.

 

So 自然 would appear "just as itself."

 

 

The etymology of English words are similarly revealing of their implications, as is the case with Classical Chinese, at least to get a sense of the direction. I think "self-igniting" shows some of this direction as would taking "然 right/correct" to mean "self-permitting/self-correcting" though, again, this is just a direction of the meaning rather than literal meaning.

[三江源]

self-igniting is an answer to how? and eternal is an answer to when?

Self igniting is also the answer to when.

 

not just 'self igniting on tuesdays.'

 

PS. never mind.

Edited April 15, 2013 by cat

[ChiDragon]

It may help to look at more uses of 然 for example:

 

當然 = to be as + ran = only natural; as it should be; certainly; of course; without doubt

突然 = sudden + ran = suddenly

 

It appears after a word to mean "in the way of" the word preceding it.

 

So 自然 would appear "just as itself."

 

 

The etymology of English words are similarly revealing of their implications, as is the case with Classical Chinese, at least to get a sense of the direction. I think "self-igniting" shows some of this direction as would taking "然 right/correct" to mean "self-permitting/self-correcting" though, again, this is just a direction of the meaning rather than literal meaning.

 

ME....

 

I am glad that you are making progress in your study. It seems to me you are getting a grasp on the compound characters....

 

自然 means natural; automatically as is by itself(like you have it in the above post).

 

I think lienshan was confused with the phonetics. He thought that 燃 is 然.

Edited April 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Here's my reading of the five passages where zi ran occurs in Tao Te Ching:

 

The Guodian chapter 17

When job's done people say: "Our self-igniting".

 

The Mawangdui chapter 23

The self-igniting of a hopeful prayer: "A whirlwind doesn't last a whole morning".

 

The Guodian chapter 25

Tao is ruled by self-igniting.

 

The Guodian chapter 64

A talent helps the self-igniting of everything like the acting of no courage.

 

The Mawangdui chapter 51

Honoring Tao and prizing Te. A man cannot command them. Hence independent self-igniting.

 

The last passage containing both Tao and Te together with heng and zi ran is most important.

Tao and Te are both self-igniting but independent in my understanding of the exavacated text.

 

Self igniting is also the answer to when.

 

not just self igniting on tuesdays.

 

But eternal is not the answer to how?

Edited April 14, 2013 by lienshan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

ME....

 

I am glad that you are making progress in your study. It seems to me you are getting a grasp on the compound characters....

 

Thanks CD , though, it's just a start .

[lienshan]

So 自然 would appear "just as itself."

 

自 was always followed by a verb, according to Pulleyblank, so 然 is a verb.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

The etymology of English words are similarly revealing of their implications, as is the case with Classical Chinese, at least to get a sense of the direction. I think "self-igniting" shows some of this direction as would taking "然 right/correct" to mean "self-permitting/self-correcting" though, again, this is just a direction of the meaning rather than literal meaning.

 

I thought this seemed more to the style of the language in the Dao De Jing and so translated it as such (in my translation) anyways...

 

 

自 was always followed by a verb, according to Pulleyblank, so 然 is a verb.

 

interesting! I've just been reading a preview of Pulleyblank, but didn't see that. Thanks..

[lienshan]

I think "self-igniting" shows some of this direction as would taking "然 right/correct" to mean "self-permitting/self-correcting" though, again, this is just a direction of the meaning rather than literal meaning.

 

An english word that matches all five uses of zi ran in the exavacated Tao Te Ching is self-fulfilling

 

The Guodian chapter 17

When job's successfully done people say: "Our self-fulfilling".

 

The Mawangdui B chapter 23

The self-fulfilling of prophecies: "A whirlwind doesn't last a whole morning".

 

The Guodian chapter 25

Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling.

 

The Guodian chapter 64

A talent helps the self-fulfilling of everyone like the acting of no courage.

 

The Mawangdui B chapter 51

When a man cannot order them is Your Te, when honoring Tao, your independent self-fulfilling.

Edited April 15, 2013 by lienshan

[TheInkSpot]

Nice.

 

Maybe more work on the last one?

 

 

Dot

Edited April 15, 2013 by TheInkSpot

[lienshan]

Maybe more work on the last one?

 

When a man cannot order them are honoring Tao and prizing Te your independent self-fulfillings.

 

道之尊也 德之貴也 夫莫之爵也 而恆自然也

 

The two first 也 characters mark the two subject clauses (honoring Tao and prizing Te)

The third 也 character marks a subordinate clause (a man cannot order them)

The fourth 也 character marks an object clause (your independent self-fulfillings)

[dawei]

The last two charaters of the first line are 恆道 traditionally translated as "eternal Tao".

 

恆 means "eternal" in modern chinese but it had another meaning in Pre-Qin time.

The change of meaning can be dated to Qin or very early Han time this way:

 

恆 is the name of hexagram 32 in the Book of Changes (I Ching).

恆我 "I/us" was the name of hexagram 32 in the exavacated Mawangdui version.

 

Both "eternal I" and "eternal us" are pure nonsense.

 

I think your spot on about 'eternal' being wrong... but I planned to share my ideas on Heng separately. In a nutshell: the original meaning and use of Heng was for divination and cosmology.

 

The closest meaning is a cross between Wu (無) and Ji (極). BTW: Ji was a natural replacement for Heng but at some point, people mucked up the meaning of Heng and Chang (常) became it's 'common' replacement.

[dawei]

I found the character in the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary defining 然.

 

燒也從火肰聲臣鉉等曰今俗別作燃蓋後人增加 (the sixth character from behind)

 

自燃 was probably the usual way to say "self-igniting" when referring to the physical process?

自然. was if so a way so say "self-igniting" indicating, that it must be read not litterally but as a metaphor!

 

Ok, so I see where you going with this. I do agree that metaphor is often a good avenue to explore but you went with a literal definition in the end with 'self-ignite'. Self-fulfilling seems closer.

 

Here are various ancient uses:

自備, 自得, 自極, 自正, 自定, 自名, 自極, 自化

 

What Laozi did was come up with a more singular way of metaphorically meaning any of the above, in 自然. This idea to condense many Ways into one is a hallmark of the Laozi. Look at the cosmology alone: It is the shortest path despite there are ancient versions with much more detail.

 

I think the key is to see that 自然 is simply the flip [positive] side of the [negative] Wu Wei 無為 (also Wu shi 無事).

[三江源]

self ignition means self renewing, which means eternal.

[TheInkSpot]

When a man cannot order them are honoring Tao and prizing Te your independent self-fulfillings.

 

道之尊也 德之貴也 夫莫之爵也 而恆自然也

 

The two first 也 characters mark the two subject clauses (honoring Tao and prizing Te)

The third 也 character marks a subordinate clause (a man cannot order them)

The fourth 也 character marks an object clause (your independent self-fulfillings)

Getting better. It is still a tongue twister for an English speaking person.

 

Can this be justified?: A man cannot order them, therefore he honors Tao and prizes Te (and this leads to) [or] (which becomes) independent self-fulfilling.

[lienshan]

It is still a tongue twister for an English speaking person.

 

Honoring Tao and esteeming Te, a man cannot order them, and always self-fulfilling.

 

The character 恆 is in this reading of the sentence, due to grammar, an adverb.

Independently looks in the context wrong to me, so I try the traditional always.

Edited April 15, 2013 by lienshan

[lienshan]

self ignition means self renewing, which means eternal.

 

A definition of eternal is existing outside of time

 

You're right if self-igniting isn't an answer to when?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here are various ancient uses:

自備, 自得, 自極, 自正, 自定, 自名, 自極, 自化

 

What Laozi did was come up with a more singular way of metaphorically meaning any of the above, in 自然.

 

Thanks for this. I see then, that translating 自然 as "self-correcting/self-permitting" does make sense, if it summarizes:

 

自備, self-perfecting

自得, self-attaining

自極, self-ultimate

自正, self-correcting

自定, self-fixing

自名, self-naming

自化, self-converting

[TheInkSpot]

Honoring Tao and prizing Te, a man cannot order them, is always self-fulfilling.

 

The character 恆 is in this reading of the sentence, due to grammar, an adverb.

Independently looks in the context wrong to me, so I try the traditional always.

Yes, "independently" is a word that perhaps is improper. Perhaps back to "spontaneously" self-fulfilling"?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I thought it seemed more to the style of the language in the Dao De Jing and so translated it as such (in my translation) anyways...

 

Correction, it was in commentary that I translated it as that.

 

For chapter 25 I translated it "Dao is regulated by its perfect completion" since it's nature was described at the beginning of chapter25 as "混 成 random and chaotic, yet perfect and complete."

[dawei]

Honoring Tao and esteeming Te, a man cannot order them, and always self-fulfilling.

 

The character 恆 is in this reading of the sentence, due to grammar, an adverb.

Independently looks in the context wrong to me, so I try the traditional always.

 

IMO, you just made the mistake of letting Chang creep into the substitution for Heng... This should always be avoided if we want an original meaning of Heng.

 

Let Chang be what it is: Ordinary, common, standard, constant... Chang was first a measure of unit for cloth; so think a standard measurement

 

If you stick to thinking about how Heng is closer to Ji, then you'll get words like: Ultimate, Absolute, Order... and any synonyms.