eternal Tao? No way!

[ChiDragon]

自備, self-providing or preparing

自得, self-attaining or obtaining

自極, self-ultimate..........................???

自正, self-correcting

自定, self-determinate

自名, self-naming

自化, self-influence or digest



自極 has multi-meaning

Edited April 16, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

道之尊也 德之貴也 夫莫之爵也 而恆自然也

 

The two first 也 characters mark the two subject clauses (honoring Tao and prizing Te)

The third 也 character marks a subordinate clause (a man cannot order them)

The fourth 也 character marks an object clause (your independent self-fulfillings)

 

The character 而 was used grammatically to mark a series of verbs: 尊 and 貴 and 自然

 

Because a man cannot ennoble them, are the dignifying of Tao and the elevating of Te independently self-fulfilling.

 

That'll say the dignifying of Tao results in the ennobling of Tao like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That'll say the elevating of Te results in the ennobling of Te like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

If one read 恆 as always instead of independently then due to grammar / context:

 

Because a man cannot ennoble it, is the dignifying of Tao, the high-ranking Te, always self-fulfilling.

Edited April 16, 2013 by lienshan

[TheInkSpot]

Yes, "always" would be hard to justify in the "real" world. We all hit the bumps in the road. However, I think that it can fairly be said that Tao and Te are always self-fulfilling. Man? Different question.

[三江源]

A definition of eternal is

 

You're right if self-igniting isn't an answer to when?

not subject to the law of change nor decay means existing outside of time

hence self igniting means eternal.

[lienshan]

Maybe more work on the last one?

 

The sentence is much longer than I thought ... all in all 35 characters

 

道之尊 也 德之貴 也 夫莫之爵 也 而恆自然 也 道生之畜之長之育之亭之毒之養之覆之

 

The first 也 character marks a subject clause (The dignifying of Tao)

The three other 也 characters mark three subordinate clauses.

 

The dignifying of Tao

(the high-ranking Te)

(a man cannot ennoble it)

(thus independently self-fulfilling)

is Tao made giving birth, made breeding, made elevated, made produced,

made erected, made poisoned, made raised, made returned.

 

之 after a verb means "made" creating an adverbial phrase according to Pulleyblank.

The last four lines of the chapter describe the opposite of "the high-ranking Te":

 

Giving birth yet no existence.

Acting yet no dependence.

Elevated yet no dominance.

This is called the profound Te.

Edited April 16, 2013 by lienshan

[TheInkSpot]

Thanks for working on that with me. My main interests here are two-fold: that the English translation you end up with is smooth and grammatically correct and most important, the significance of Ziran (Tzu-jan) as you have translated it to "Self-fulfilling".

 

(Sorry Cat, "self-igniting" just doesn't seem adequately descriptive.)

[lienshan]

My main interests here are two-fold: that the English translation you end up with is smooth and grammatically correct and most important, the significance of Ziran (Tzu-jan) as you have translated it to "Self-fulfilling".

 

(Sorry Cat, "self-igniting" just doesn't seem adequately descriptive.)

 

I'm not producing an English translation! I read the exavacated Tao Te Ching versions in the original language

training my brain in the same way as others practize "material arts" training their bodies.

 

Chapter 23 is about what's today is called "self-fulfilling prophecies" ( hopeful sayings zi ran)

 

I like Cat's point of view. Self-igniting and self-fulfilling are related terms, and what is the definition of "eternal"?

I know the modern definition, but how did the chinese define "eternal" around 350 BC?

Edited April 16, 2013 by lienshan

[dawei]

I like Cat's point of view. Self-igniting and self-fulfilling are related terms, and what is the definition of "eternal"?

I know the modern definition, but how did the chinese define "eternal" around 350 BC?

 

Part of the problem may be that we are trying to find a western linear concept of time in an otherwise cyclic, never-ending (never-beginning) eastern point of view.

 

I think that is why you don't really see the idea of eternalness in the ancient cosmologies. It is more often spoken in terms of Absolute, Ultimate, Nothingness, Primordial, Spaceless, Boundless Void, etc... They are describing the "Absolute-state-of-before-ness". This is how HENG was used too in cosmologies; a description of the prior-state. This is why it was substituted with Ji (Ultimate, Absolute Expanse); it was not a time-reference.

 

The more likely word for eternal is Yong, 永... but I personally think that this plays little to no role as the cosmologies portray boundless, endless cycles of transformation of states.

[lienshan]

I think that is why you don't really see the idea of eternalness in the ancient cosmologies.

It is more often spoken in terms of Absolute, Ultimate, Nothingness, Primordial, Spaceless, Boundless Void, etc...

They are describing the "Absolute-state-of-before-ness".

 

A (prior to Laozi) taoist cosmology was TaiYiShengShui "The Great One gave birth to Water".

Emptiness may be synonymous with The Great One?

Laozi dealt with this taoist cosmology in the Guodian chapter 25 this way:

 

字之曰道

吾強為之名曰大

大曰潰

潰曰轉

轉曰返

........

道法自然

 

The character is called Tao.

I stengthen it by calling it Great.

Great is called a dam failure.

A dam failure is called Large.

Large is called a fanqie.

......

Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling.

 

A fanqie: Early dictionaries such as the Erya (3rd century BC) indicated the pronunciation of a character

by the method of dú ruò (讀若, "read as"), giving another character with the same pronunciation.

 

 

My own take on the character 恆 heng is that the character is a picture of the pulsation.

A boat between two shores and a heart radical. The pulsation is both durating and independent of our will.

Edited April 17, 2013 by lienshan

[dawei]

A (prior to Laozi) taoist cosmology was TaiYiShengShui "The Great One gave birth to Water".

Emptiness may be synonymous with The Great One?

 

I like that you look at contemporary texts to draw an understanding... I do the same. The problem is that you overlook the obvious here: GREAT is synonymous for The Great One.

 

Maybe you didn't know: Great (DA - 大) is the original Character for Tai Yi Sheng Shui... It was first: DA Yi Sheng Shui !

 

Later editors like to spice things up by replacing DA with TAI... they did that with the Yijing too... no harm, no foul.

 

Laozi dealt with this taoist cosmology in the Guodian chapter 25 this way:

 

字之曰道

吾強為之名曰大

大曰潰

潰曰轉

轉曰返

........

道法自然

 

The character is called Tao.

I stengthen it by calling it Great.

Great is called a dam failure.

A dam failure is called Large.

Large is called a fanqie.

......

Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling.

 

A fanqie: Early dictionaries such as the Erya (3rd century BC) indicated the pronunciation of a character

by the method of dú ruò (讀若, "read as"), giving another character with the same pronunciation.

 

 

My own take on the character 恆 heng is that the character is a picture of the pulsation.

A boat between two shores and a heart radical. The pulsation is both durating and independent of our will.

 

The problem with translating as Large and Fanqie is that these words are really saying the same thing as the DA Yi Sheng Shui you were appealing to.. Compare:

 

DDJ25:

潰曰轉

轉曰返

DYSS:

水反輔

---

As to HENG... the boat and heart radical are not till hundreds of years after the Guodian... added by the northern elite after unification and burning of books and creation of dictionaries with some glosses which are silly at times...

The Guodian Heng is really simple:

Two lines: Heaven and Earth

Left side: Moon (or twilight)

Right side: Divination (卜)

Are you telling me your feeling a pulsation from this?

Put on your Shaman hat and then tell me what you feel...

[lienshan]

You are right. The heart radical was added to heng when changing to seal script,

and the divination radical was added to heng when changing from oraclebone script.

 

As to HENG... the boat and heart radical are not till hundreds of years after the Guodian... added by the northern elite after unification and burning of books and creation of dictionaries with some glosses which are silly at times...

Edited April 17, 2013 by lienshan

[Wu Ming Jen]

What is constant and eternal is change, Harmonious change makes "self ignition" possible yin and yang one turning into the other begins this eternal movement the pulse maybe. The one primordial gave birth to two,

 

This seems like a crazy text and translation The one gave birth to water??? Is that not fragmental and absolute? it separates and singles out one element from all the others, How can one element be completed and set into motion continuous with no friction to slow it down or stop it? Just saying

[lienshan]

What is constant and eternal is change

 

 

This seems like a crazy text and translation The one gave birth to water???

 

I've found the definition of heng 恆 when reading a Confucius quote in the annalects. Put in short:

An one-armed man is heng one-armed that'll say one-armed all the time, day in and day out.

A good man isn't heng good that'll say not good all the time, day in and day out.

 

The Great One gives birth to water

and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven

and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth.

The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit.

The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang.

The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons ... etc. etc.

 

The text is a part of the Guodian Tao Te Ching and the author is in my opinion Laozi.

What he deals with is a contemporary taoist cosmology and he starts with quoting it.

Edited April 19, 2013 by lienshan

[dawei]

I've found the definition of heng 恆 when reading a Confucius quote in the annalects. Put in short:

An one-armed man is heng one-armed that'll say one-armed all the time, day in and day out.

A good man isn't heng good that'll say not good all the time, day in and day out.

 

I think you will find the Confucians tend to follow the idea of Heng as permanent and eternal; this seems to stem from a famous passage in the Classic of Poetry where the moon moves to fullness and 'never waning'... and applies that to the longevity of success.

 

The Great One gives birth to water

and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven

and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth.

The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit.

The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang.

The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons ... etc. etc.

 

The text is a part of the Guodian Tao Te Ching and the author is in my opinion Laozi.

What he deals with is a contemporary taoist cosmology and he starts with quoting it.

 

Sarah Allen in her study in TYSS said:

The Shui di 水地 chapter of the Guanzi 管子 is the only pre-Han text in the received tradition that discusses water as a first principle in an explicit manner. The origin and date of that chapter are difficult to determine, but it probably belongs to the late Warring States Period. It states that the earth is fundamentally water, as are all the myriad things that live upon it; and as a result several scholars have attempted to relate it to the Da Yi sheng shui.20 Not only is the Shui di similar to the Da Yi sheng shui cosmogony in giving priority to water, but it seems possible that it was originally a part of a larger work in which water was taken as the source of the sky as well as the earth, which would indeed agree with the Guodian text.

 

If we compare the ancient cosmologies, only a few are condensed as One to Two (and explicitly state that as Heaven and Earth). Those that have a little more detail reflect something else inbetween Nothingness and Heaven and Earth.

[lienshan]

 

I think you will find the Confucians tend to follow the idea of Heng as permanent and eternal; this seems to stem from a famous passage in the Classic of Poetry where the moon moves to fullness and 'never waning'... and applies that to the longevity of success.

 

 

Those that have a little more detail reflect something else inbetween Nothingness and Heaven and Earth.

 

I try to put the confucian all the time Eternity into the Mawangdui formula one:

 

 

If it's Tao possible Tao, then it isn't the eternal Tao.

If it's a name possible to name, then it isn't the Eternity named.

The beginning of everything was not named.

The Mother of everything is a name.

Consequently:

The Eternity was not desired, considering its singleness.

The Eternity is a desire, considering her offsprings.

It's a pair of the same origin, different words with the same meaning.

They are the swing gates of the profound mystery and the oneness of the multitude.

 

 

all the time Eternity is like eternal Tao what's called: a redundancy/pleonasm/tautology

Put in short: saying the same thing twice

 

The character meaning the swing gates is visualizing what a redundancy means.

 

Edited April 21, 2013 by lienshan