Do we/can we choose our thoughts?

[Birch]

The above has been claimed by a variety of people. Having some amount of meditation/mindfulness experience I disagree. My experience has been that I become aware of a thought, then 'decide' whether that thought is 'acceptable' or not, then attempt (and can succeed at this quite well sometimes but not always) to add another thought that would be more appropriate or pleasant after the first one.

[idiot_stimpy]

Depending on your past actions and thoughts.

 

Mental conditioning carries on until you make a change.

 

Making a change means to stop paying attention to certain ideas or not believing in them.

[thetaoiseasy]

...

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Birch]

Ok, I got it up until "the mind is a thief and you must guard yourself until you see that you are the thief, and eventually, that there was never any thief to begin with".

[Birch]

Depending on your past actions and thoughts.

 

Mental conditioning carries on until you make a change.

 

Making a change means to stop paying attention to certain ideas or not believing in them.

 

The choice in the above is? Not the thought itself?

[skydog]

To some extent...yes..To some extent...no..

 

I believe in law of attraction/"new age thinking", love etc etc

 

I also think that quieting the mind, neutrality is powerful.

 

They say "Love and Light"

 

Awareness does not solve everything, people can say oh im aware so I can do and think what I want and there is no good or bad.

 

But the heart opens or closes with different thoughts, feelings and behaviour patterns, and the heart is very powerful.

[Protector]

Beware your thoughts they will become your words

Beware your words they will become your actions

Beware your actions they will become your habits

Beware your habits they will seal your fate

[Birch]

So this is a belief? Or is it the case that some people can while others cannot? An ideal that should be striven for but that we know is very difficult to accomplish?

[joeblast]

this is a manifestation of habit-energy

[ChiDragon]

So this is a belief? Or is it the case that some people can while others cannot? An ideal that should be striven for but that we know is very difficult to accomplish?

 

I think it is a matter of the open-mind-ness of a person. It is the case that some people can while others cannot. If you assumed it is difficult to accomplish, then it is. Your action will tend to follow your own thoughts per Protector's quote above.

[Birch]

No assumptions (I think;-)) here. I'm speaking from where my practice is at.

[Birch]

this is a manifestation of habit-energy

 

Could you explain what that is JB?

[Jetsun]

I think we can choose new thoughts, but most of the time I think our thoughts are just mechanically or habitually reacting to outer impressions or inner memories.

[thelerner]

It takes work and discipline but yes, you can.

Hmnn like mental shampooing.

Quiet, rinse,

control, discipline,

rinse again

let loose.

[Birch]

I think we can choose new thoughts, but most of the time I think our thoughts are just mechanically or habitually reacting to outer impressions or inner memories.

That's where I'd say I'm around at at this point. In other words the 'next' thought that follows a thought of which I become aware can be 'chosen' as a reaction (hmmm...) to the first thought.

 

Edit: further, I question what's 'wrong' with the first that I should then wish to choose a different one?

And further, if I react to one thought by imposing/'choosing' its reverse, doesn't sound like more than yet another reaction to me.

[oildrops]

I have no idea, but I like to believe we "guide" our thoughts.

[Birch]

I have no idea, but I like to believe we "guide" our thoughts.

How so Oildrops? I think I 'like' that idea better than the 'micromanagement' of my current 'mindfulness' practice (it used to be 'worse' than this, much more suppressive:-)) If anything, mindfulness has shown me very specifically that I'm not very often choosing my thoughts. To the contrary, I'm simply watching them, most of the time in fact.

 

At this point, I don't get what this idea of choosing one's thoughts is supposed to be doing. I can't do this thing but other people can? Or that I might be able to in the future? What about the people that say I should because they can? Do they really do it? Or is it just a nice idea to tell other people to do? Why?

 

Does it mean there's a developmental process at work of some kind which will take me from a place of not being able to do it very well to being able to? Are there any costs involved? On what basis should I make a choice of thought? Something pops up and I don't like it, is that enough to say 'ah, better immediately think something else'? Reminds me of some game of Whack-a-mole:-)

[thetaoiseasy]

..

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[thelerner]

K, I wrote a 10 solid paragraphs responding directly to your question, but I deleted them. I think it's more effective if I answer indirectly, briefly and abstractly.

 

1. we were originally beings of light energy. from the sky, we came down to earth and merged with the heavier earth energy, and became humans.

2. the mind is a blend of heavy and light energy. the interaction between our spirit and physical body. you can say that as long as we are on earth our reality is created by the mind.

3. the mind has a natural tendency to follow the instinctive guidance of light energy, because of our ancestral roots and connection to the light energy. meaning, in a choice between heavy and light energy, we will always choose the virtuous way. this is our conscience.

4. unnatural circumstances and over-development of the mind, coupled with the increased heavy energy amongst us, has blocked the natural guidance from the light. we become conditioned by difficult circumstances to not see the light.

..

 

I was considering writing something skeptical to this. Something along the lines of 'How do you really know that..' but I'm working through Rawn Clarks Archaeous and the practice is about being aware of the different levels of the body, ie physical, mental, astral. I'm not really sure how literal to take it.

 

So I guess I'd better keep my mouth shut, practice and see where it leads.

Edited April 15, 2013 by thelerner

[Birch]

K, I wrote a 10 paragraph response directly to your question, but I deleted it. I think it's more effective if I answer indirectly, briefly and abstractly.

 

1. we were originally beings of light energy. from the sky, we came down to earth and merged with the heavier earth energy, and became humans.

2. the mind is a blend of heavy and light energy. the interaction between our spirit and physical body. you can say that as long as we are on earth our reality is created by the mind.

3. the mind has a natural tendency to follow the instinctive guidance of light energy, because of our ancestral roots and connection to the light energy. meaning, in a choice between heavy and light energy, we will always choose the virtuous way. this is our conscience.

4. unnatural circumstances and over-development of the mind, coupled with the increased heavy energy amongst us, has blocked the natural guidance from the light. we become conditioned by difficult circumstances to not see the light.

5. cultivation is not a matter of reprogramming the mind, so to speak. its a matter of rediscovering the natural function of the balanced mind that follows the light.

6. this discovery process often creates a conflict, between pre-heaven protocol of following the light and the years of haphazard conditioned mind protocol based on experience.

7. in this conflict, you begin to feel that one type of energy is "better" than the other. the light energy is free and buoyant and non-conceptual. the heavy energy is always accompanied by pain and misery and conflict. and so you begin to question many of your previous ideas about self and others. you realize the light is independent of external circumstances, while the heavier energy is always dependent on circumstance.

8. you choose the light energy because it feels natural, instinctive, and good. but the visible and invisible forces of societal conditioning is strong. yet you persevere. having experienced the light, you will naturally want to uncover more of it. so you follow the dim light in the distance, and as you follow it, it becomes bright and brighter.

9. an important realization is that heavy energy is in fact fuel for your spiritual energy.

10. the conflicted mind gradually takes the backseat, as you begin to use the darkness within to support the light. the polarities between good and evil is dissolved, and the spiritual energy takes the front seat. the thief is gone. the mind's natural functioning of following one's spiritual nature resumes. our natural virtue is restored.

 

 

That's a shame you deleted your 10 paragraph post!

 

I'll dip into a few of your points, if I may:-)

 

1. we were originally beings of light energy. from the sky, we came down to earth and merged with the heavier earth energy, and became humans. - This to me is a story. I have no way of checking the facts of it. What it sounds like: 'The Fall of Man'. I'm unaware of a universal human story, but of lots of variants.

 

2. the mind is a blend of heavy and light energy. the interaction between our spirit and physical body. you can say that as long as we are on earth our reality is created by the mind. - The 'blend' is interesting. Again, I take this as a story, not the reality of it since I have no history of anywhere else. I guess I could take your word for it:-) Should I?

 

3. the mind has a natural tendency to follow the instinctive guidance of light energy, because of our ancestral roots and connection to the light energy. meaning, in a choice between heavy and light energy, we will always choose the virtuous way. this is our conscience. - I see counterexamples to this suggested 'natural' tendency pretty much everywhere. I see this also as 'natural' (unfortunately). So it's a nice thing to suggest to people as an ideal, but I don't consider it to be the case.

 

4. unnatural circumstances and over-development of the mind, coupled with the increased heavy energy amongst us, has blocked the natural guidance from the light. we become conditioned by difficult circumstances to not see the light.

What circumstances are unnatural? I agree that left-brained verbal language makes it too easy to confound and lie to others and ourselves about pretty much anything. What increased 'heavy' energy?

 

5. cultivation is not a matter of reprogramming the mind, so to speak. its a matter of rediscovering the natural function of the balanced mind that follows the light. Balanced, yes. How about SOUND as the missing direction, not light? (Although at some point they end up being the same whatever, but still:-))

 

6. this discovery process often creates a conflict, between pre-heaven protocol of following the light and the years of haphazard conditioned mind protocol based on experience. My personal understanding of conflict is when people invent linguistic narratives to influence others away from what is otherwise well understood as real.

 

7. in this conflict, you begin to feel that one type of energy is "better" than the other. the light energy is free and buoyant and non-conceptual. the heavy energy is always accompanied by pain and misery and conflict. and so you begin to question many of your previous ideas about self and others. you realize the light is independent of external circumstances, while the heavier energy is always dependent on circumstance. The use of 'you' as a case in point to my example above:-) Certainly some energies are more pleasant than others, but the full spectrum of them includes all of them AFAIK. One's attempts to not experience some of the less pleasant ones may lead to wrong decisions (amongst othe roads to hell paved with good intentions).

 

8. you choose the light energy because it feels natural, instinctive, and good. but the visible and invisible forces of societal conditioning is strong. yet you persevere. having experienced the light, you will naturally want to uncover more of it. so you follow the dim light in the distance, and as you follow it, it becomes bright and brighter. Hasn't been my personal experience so far but I'll leave you with yours on this:-) I was very personally coerced into accepting some concepts and not others. I should apologize in advance for not wishing to take on any additional ones without having the opportunity to roadtest them.

 

9. an important realization is that heavy energy is in fact fuel for your spiritual energy. I have feet in the world, yes:-) And an objective to bring whatever 'spiritual' energy is available to me to put it back into the world for the benefit of all.

 

10. the conflicted mind gradually takes the backseat, as you begin to use the darkness within to support the light. the polarities between good and evil is dissolved, and the spiritual energy takes the front seat. the thief is gone. the mind's natural functioning of following one's spiritual nature resumes. our natural virtue is restored. I can't say anything much about this:-)

 

Thanks for your post:-)

[thetaoiseasy]

...

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

becoming one with all and witnessing all becoming one together. An amalgamation amassing awareness, awaiting ascension.

Ascension > (Con)Census

Awaiting > Doing[Enacting]

Awareness > Ignorance

Amassing > Dissecting

Amalgmation > Contestation

Edited April 15, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[oildrops]

How so Oildrops? I think I 'like' that idea better than the 'micromanagement' of my current 'mindfulness' practice (it used to be 'worse' than this, much more suppressive:-)) If anything, mindfulness has shown me very specifically that I'm not very often choosing my thoughts. To the contrary, I'm simply watching them, most of the time in fact.

 

I have found that controlling a thought gives it power and will make it stronger or force it into something unhealthy. What I have been taught is to acknowledge thoughts and let them pass. I try to treat my brain like an unruly child or a bully. It wants my attention, but when I put my attention somewhere else it has no power over me. It doesn't always work, and depends on how much energy my thoughts have.

 

I have a difficult time with absolutes in any sense, so the idea of being able to control something doesn't ring true for me. I want to think about a blue jar, and I do, but what made me want to think about that blue jar? Was is a preexisting circumstance, or did my thought originate at the blue jar? And without my intention the blue jar starts to vibrate and then shatters which bothers me and makes me desire more control over the state of this thought. The nature of a thought is a reflection of my nature, so how would I guide myself? I might give love to the thought and the blue jar and might cooperate with my desire and remain intact.

 

I had an experience during meditation last week that was very strange, part of my mind separated from myself, it was the most dualistic thought I have ever had. It didn't seem like it was me, but something outside of my mind. What it said was: "You need to listen to me and I will guide you. You have not listened to me in the past and you have created problems for yourself because of it. It's time to start following my direction and not letting your thoughts stop the correct actions I intend for you."

 

Now if I could learn to tune into that when I need it, I would like to experiment with that inner voice.

 

At this point, I don't get what this idea of choosing one's thoughts is supposed to be doing. I can't do this thing but other people can? Or that I might be able to in the future? What about the people that say I should because they can? Do they really do it? Or is it just a nice idea to tell other people to do? Why?

 

I sometimes think this with overly idealized meditation techniques. Our brains have developed to process large amounts of information, and our thoughts are largely survival and reproductions mechanisms. We are constantly aware of food, mates, and threats. I think to turn this off completely is unnatural.

 

Does it mean there's a developmental process at work of some kind which will take me from a place of not being able to do it very well to being able to? Are there any costs involved? On what basis should I make a choice of thought? Something pops up and I don't like it, is that enough to say 'ah, better immediately think something else'? Reminds me of some game of Whack-a-mole:-)

 

Haha yes, I sometimes play Whack-a-mole with my thoughts, and sometimes I can't have a thought if I try.

[C T]

A wise farmer does not spend all his time watching every single sheep or farm animal he owns.

 

All he or she needs to do is to ensure there are a couple of good sheep dogs around.

[Birch]

Another wise person asks for nebulously constructed abstractions to be explained by the farmer:-) Whaddya mean Mr Cow?