Do we/can we choose our thoughts?

[Dzogchen]

After reading some of your other posts in this thread it is clear that what you are referring to has to do with what is called quantum causality.

 

http://medienportal.univie.ac.at/presse/aktuelle-pressemeldungen/detailansicht/artikel/quantum-causal-relations-a-causes-b-causes-a/

 

That with a little research on parallel universes and you should have a better answer.

[Birch]

But you KNOW I don't understand quantum physics:-)

 

...so cruel...

[C T]

Another wise person asks for nebulously constructed abstractions to be explained by the farmer:-) Whaddya mean Mr Cow?

The analogy is plainly direct, Miss K.

 

Sheep = thoughts.

 

Sheep dog = mindful awareness.

 

When this (mindful awareness) is fully functioning, there is no need to watch/discriminate thoughts. They simply come and go at their own leisure. Give them (thoughts) enough space, like the sheep grazing the fields. One cannot afford to waste precious energy watching arisings/subsidings. This is quite a futile attempt to train the mind. A more viable, helpful alternative is to investigate the empty nature of the mind, to see for oneself if this is indeed what the mind is. Disenfranchisement is the result of people attempting to hem in and control thoughts, under the false notion that this is the means to overcome whatever they think needs overcoming.

 

Spaciousness is the key, not choosing what to think, and what to discard. Whatever is discarded is never really gone.

[cheya]

Hello, thetaoiseasy,
Your saying "heavy energy is in fact fuel for your spiritual energy" reminds me of TTC Chapter 28, (at least Wayson Liao's translation of it), which has always held a fascination for me.
I'd love for you to expand on how the heavy energy is fuel for your spiritual energy, and how/if one can encourage that "fueling". Is there a "doing" involved in this process?

I don't know if this is related, but years ago, one of my teachers said he could "burn" habits that he wanted to get rid of, using the energy to power his teachings, or maybe he meant energy/spritual transmissions. Or, he said, he could sacrifice some aspect of himself (personality) to use as fuel. It came in a very dense teaching, and only stood out enough for me to be curious some time after he passed.

Any comments or clarification would be very much appreciated!



 

9. along the way, you begin to realize that heavy energy is in fact fuel for your spiritual energy. with this realization, the conflicted mind between two polarities of "good and evil" dissolve, as you use the darkness within to support the light, understanding that yin can be yang. 

[Dzogchen]

But you KNOW I don't understand quantum physics:-) ...so cruel...

 

That's all part of the "fun" (many physicists have driven themselves mad trying to solve these types of answers). There is a very deep correlation between physics, philosophy, consciousness, ect.

 

Learn, come to your own opinion, learn more, think more, experience more, adapt beliefs and come to another opinion then keep that pattern going. Ironically this is the only way you may ever truly "know" the answer to the question that was proposed, is it a bit of a paradox? Are there multiple different answers that could equally be as satisfying?

 

Another though experiment that I have been using to come to my own opinion has really given me great insight on something relate to this. Now we know that everything in the universe is made up of atoms, and atoms are made of sub atomic particles, then strings perhaps. Your body, but most importantly your brain is just a 3 dimensional configuration of particles aligned in a specific pattern. Now if there were a machine that were able to perfectly duplicate you down to the exact position of every last particle in your body at a given moment, and that machine made a perfect replica of you at that certain moment, what would happen?

[Jetsun]

Aren't things like aspirational prayers and practices like generating compassion a form of choosing new thoughts? Your new thoughts create better pathways for your thoughts to flow down which create a better result or effect which leads your mind into more agreeable and workable realms. A lot of Buddhist practice has both sides, you are mindful of your thoughts so they don't dominate you plus you create new thoughts which leads to better rebirth in this life or the next.

[hydrogen]

K. Allow me to explain the idea in a way that I tried to explain to a person who has no knowledge of meditation or religion. Please don't hesitate to ask any questions. It's a very difficult point to understand. Your question will help me refine my model and my own understandings as well.

 

Do you know Pavlov's dog experiment and classical conditioning?

 

In 1927, Ivan Pavlov experimented with his dog on the subject of psychological training--specifically conditional stimuli and response. He found that when he rang a bell each time before he fed his dog, the dog no longer salivated in response to the food, but to the bell.

 

Now, Let me get to the point directly. Our current thought is the saliva. We're trained to salivate when hearing bell. We forgot the original condition was food.

 

If you expand the idea futher, it can be frightening. Our current thought is conditioned. Our logic to judge the thought is conditioned. Our knowledge base is conditioned. Our very language to think is conditioned. What the heck is not conditioned? I don't know.

 

The first step is to realize that we're not what we "think" we are. Because the very "thinking" can not be trusted. I think most posters on this forum are in this stage.

 

How to get out of this chain of conditioning? That's what I'm working on.

 

First, I'd like to stop or reduce more conditionings. I refuse to vote on any issue. I try not to judge.

 

Second, destroy some conditionings, alter some conditionings and build some new conditionings. I try to do something different to change the pattern.

 

I try to reverse my step to trace back those conditionings. It's actually a figurative speech. The conditionings are layered like a big onion. I don't think I have time to peel each layer. I want to go to the core directly. From what I heard that the core is "good" and "love".

[三江源]

 

1. we were originally beings of light energy. from the sky, we came down to earth and merged with the heavier earth energy, and became humans.

2. the mind is a blend of heavy and light energy. the interaction between our spirit and physical body. you can say that as long as we are on earth our reality is created by the mind.

3. the mind has a natural tendency to follow the instinctive guidance of light energy, because of our ancestral roots and connection to the light energy. meaning, in a choice between heavy and light energy, we will always choose the virtuous way. this is our conscience.

4. unnatural circumstances and over-development of the mind, coupled with the increased heavy energy amongst us, has blocked the natural guidance from the light. we become conditioned by difficult circumstances to not see the light.

5. cultivation is not a matter of reprogramming the mind, so to speak. its a matter of rediscovering the natural function of the balanced mind that follows the light.

6. this discovery process often creates a conflict, between pre-heaven protocol of following the light and the years of haphazard conditioned mind protocol based on experience.

7. in this conflict, you begin to feel that one type of energy is "better" than the other. the light energy is free and buoyant and non-conceptual. the heavy energy is always accompanied by pain and misery and conflict and has no benefit. and so you begin to question many of your previous ideas about self and others. you realize the light is independent of external circumstances, while the heavier energy is always dependent on circumstance. you will never regret doing the right thing, but always regret doing the wrong thing.

8. you choose the light energy because it feels natural, instinctive, and good. sometimes it may feel like you are faking it, but when does faking it feel so natural? and yet the visible and invisible forces of societal conditioning is strong. the heavier energy sometimes asserts itself, but you reject it. and you persevere. having experienced the beautiful light, you naturally want to uncover more of it. so you follow the dim light in the distance, and as you follow it, the light becomes bright and brighter.

9. along the way, you begin to realize that heavy energy is in fact fuel for your spiritual energy. with this realization, the conflicted mind between two polarities of "good and evil" dissolve, as you use the darkness within to support the light, understanding that yin can be yang. the spiritual energy takes the front seat as the driver, while the physical body is the car. now you can go somewhere. the mind's natural functioning of following one's spiritual nature resumes. our natural virtue is restored. the thief is effectively gone. when you have reached your destination of spiritual achievement, you get off the car that is battered and worn out. dissolve the tai chi, as the yin black energy that is your body is dispersed into the earth, and you become an empty circle that can fly to infinity. a being of pure light.

 

 

WOW! beautifully expressed, thankyou for your clarity and for sharing this wisdom.

Edited April 15, 2013 by cat

[idiot_stimpy]

Who you think 'you are' is just mental conditioning.

[Birch]

WOW! beautifully expressed, thankyou for your clarity and for sharing this wisdom.

Except it was Taoiseasy's expression. I disagreed politely with several points he suggested. Would you edit the quote label:-) ?

[Birch]

Who you think 'you are' is just mental conditioning.

Well, not really. As far as I'm concerned. I'd say I'm around that point Hydrogen mentioned. Onions and whatnot:-)

 

And as I was reading up on quantum physics this morning (sigh, this site leads to such strange places;-)) seems this 'particle' business should also be thrown out. That's old school. It's also why you can't explain quantum physics with references to particles.

[Birch]

The analogy is plainly direct, Miss K.

 

Sheep = thoughts.

 

Sheep dog = mindful awareness.

 

When this (mindful awareness) is fully functioning, there is no need to watch/discriminate thoughts. They simply come and go at their own leisure. Give them (thoughts) enough space, like the sheep grazing the fields. One cannot afford to waste precious energy watching arisings/subsidings. This is quite a futile attempt to train the mind. A more viable, helpful alternative is to investigate the empty nature of the mind, to see for oneself if this is indeed what the mind is. Disenfranchisement is the result of people attempting to hem in and control thoughts, under the false notion that this is the means to overcome whatever they think needs overcoming.

 

Spaciousness is the key, not choosing what to think, and what to discard. Whatever is discarded is never really gone.

 

Thank you Mr Cow. I am a poor sheepdog therefore. I think I should give up on meditation:-)

[Jeff]

Thank you Mr Cow. I am a poor sheepdog therefore. I think I should give up on meditation:-)

 

Hi K,

 

Sorry to intrude, but rather than meditation, have you ever tried to just keep all of your attention in the present moment? If you stay in the present, the sheep don't need a dog.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[Stosh]

^{You have some control, of some of your thoughts, some of the time ,.}

^{conditioning by the external circumstances is however very potent stuff}

^{Can you dwell on a thing until you are angrier ? can you remind yourself}

^{to chill out because you are dealing with a delicate matter?}

^{I think anyone does this stuff automatically.}

^{But to what extent one does this -short of self hypnosis,, I dont know,}

^{but I imagine it hard to teach oneself the beauty of a smell you dont like .}

^{, and dont think if I want to entirely abandon what is clearly adaptive learning}

^{Wanting to override it ?,, one should consider why they want to.}

 

^{Whether the center of ones soul is love and good .. I suspect that to be}

^{biased view along the lines of neo-daoism , that is to say buddhist influence .}

^{since good is a subjective notion and loving requires some dichotomies of thought}

^{but I cant really discount hydrogens assessment on it}

Edited April 15, 2013 by Stosh

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Birch]

Hi K,

 

Sorry to intrude, but rather than meditation, have you ever tried to just keep all of your attention in the present moment? If you stay in the present, the sheep don't need a dog.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

Thank you Jeff:-) Not at all intruding:-)

[Birch]

^{You have some control, of some of your thoughts, some of the time ,.}

^{conditioning by the external circumstances is however very potent stuff}

^{Can you dwell on a thing until you are angrier ? can you remind yourself}

^{to chill out because you are dealing with a delicate matter?}

^{I think anyone does this stuff automatically.}

^{But to what extent one does this -short of self hypnosis,, I dont know,}

^{but I imagine it hard to teach oneself the beauty of a smell you dont like .}

^{, and dont think if I want to entirely abandon what is clearly adaptive learning}

^{Wanting to override it ?,, one should consider why they want to.}

 

^{Whether the center of ones soul is love and good .. I suspect that to be}

^{biased view along the lines of neo-daoism , that is to say buddhist influence .}

^{since good is a subjective notion and loving requires some dichotomies of thought}

^{but I cant really discount hydrogens assessment on it}

I noted I have 'control' (at this point) over the one 'after' the one I realised I didn't have control over!

[Birch]

Thank you Taoiseasy - not at all derailing:-)

[DragonsNectar69k]

I believe one can have control of their thoughts. It is merely a practice of discipline and will. One can even defeat inner-demons by choosing "Right thinking". Choosing one's thoughts can get easier if one can learn to be emotionally self-sufficient and not be influenced by emotion itself. Usually people can get sweeped away in lust, hate, anger, frustration, confusion, etc.

 

Emotion is the biggest key concerning thoughts in my opinion. Emotions can be described as adding fuel to the fire. Mastering one's emotions, through intelligence, I think, is a bit harder. Practicing a meditation known as 'nothing-ness' can help. Just google it.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Blah bleh blah de blibidety bladedah per physics que studio beliefs de deedily dude deedy dumb de blah doo philosophy seven 7 & ampersands of time... whoa a long blank space, and then the narration of a conscious thought, how redundant! yet i could not describe the pause, so you just have to time it at about 20 seconds or so.


Okay i think i can post the thought farm.

[Protector]

Our thoughts words and so on are based on what we let into our heads and what we don't.

And by "what we don't" I mean DON'T THINK OF AN ELEPHANT

It's easy to understand the word elephant by itself but not together with the word don't and so, since an elephant is smaller then don't elephant, it gets into our minds easier

The herd of elephants is hard to see until it's in the open and we see the results of what we learned

How we act like people around us and talk with their accents, and how we think what is right or wrong

After growing we decide what to keep and what to throw away

It's not bad, we just take everything we can as kids then as adults decide what to keep based on what is appropriate

Because you know, "empty your cup"

[joeblast]

Could you explain what that is JB?

basically,

 

Beware your thoughts they will become your words

Beware your words they will become your actions

Beware your actions they will become your habits

Beware your habits they will seal your fate

but I'll also bring out my favorite quote from Austin's Zen and the Brain,

 

"the brain builds its neural networks based upon habit and experience."

 

ergo, being mindful of one's thoughts has an impact on the probability of a given thought manifesting in the future.

 

After reading some of your other posts in this thread it is clear that what you are referring to has to do with what is called quantum causality.

 

http://medienportal.univie.ac.at/presse/aktuelle-pressemeldungen/detailansicht/artikel/quantum-causal-relations-a-causes-b-causes-a/

 

That with a little research on parallel universes and you should have a better answer.

consciousness is definitely a quantum mechanical phenomenon - and given how these other observations fits into probabilities and quantum wave functions, that is how we only set the stage - alter the probability - for something to manifest.

 

that's why a simple notation and dropping of a thought if far preferable to beating oneself up over having thought it, because there is reinforcement there, even if in the negative I dont want to think this sort of fashion - it is still some sort of notation. which is not the same as terminating the thoughtform - so that's why sometimes mantras are a good tool to use, but basically the root of the idea is not giving any angular momentum to the thoughtform in question and diverting the thought-stream-energy to reinforce something else instead.

 

so one has a vehicle to eliminate a given thought-form-habit-energy by first denying as much energetic potential to the thoughtform, which diminishes the habit-energy, until there is no habit-energy left and the attachment to the particular thoughtform is replaced with a new habit-energy. (you just have to overcome the amplitude of the old habit-energy in order to begin diminishing it, with less amplitude, easier to overcome.)

 

[Birch]

Thank you JB, I thought (sic) it was something like that :-)

I also want to suggest with some amount of dispute to the people suggesting it's 'easy' (which is what it looks like is being suggested with this 'merely' idea above - and this has also been suggested to me by non-meditators of a more New Age ilk:-)) that it's NOT easy, at least not IME easy. And I am swearing internally as I write:-)

 

Hasn't been (unless you count the month or so of the discovery of 'meditation' at the start) and at this moment still isn't 'easy'. And it also looks like I have a 'thing' about the suggestion it is easy. Like I have a 'thing' about the 'positive thinking' movement:-) Or this notion that we choose our thoughts - for would that be entirely true without some amount of hard work (apparently) - What are so many of us taking years to accomplish (who said it may take lifetimes?!) ?

Anyway, if this choice off the bat were the case, what do you (no 'you' in particular) think I'd choose off the bat?

I'm assuming I'd choose 'nice' and 'helpful' things. So why is that not the case to begin with?

 

I've been at this thing for a few years and it has been quite the difficult, painful (literally, but trying to explain how friction from thoughts is physically painful, well I'll leave that one for another day:-))

 

Now on the interaction with emotions. I agree totally that they do add fuel of sorts - in some cases this is generated intentionally (as in some practices), in many cases it is not. The neuroscience folks are getting around to discussing the interactions and I posted some stuff on polyvagal theory down in the OT.

 

Anyway, my point on the 'mind only' part of this is that I don't think it tells the full story:-)

 

--somewhat of a rant, not apologizing for it--

[thetaoiseasy]

...

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Birch]

k, just a short note that i agree with your sentiments and "rant" completely. it's not easy. it's easy in theory, much harder in practice. typing "positive thinking" takes 2 seconds on the keyboard, but truthfully, any aspect of cultivation is many times harder than anything i've ever done -- including years of being screamed at in my medical training. over the 20 years, there has been emotional pain like a knife sitting an inch from my heart. there has been physical pain like pulling teeth when the pressure of qi is cracking through the skull. there has been spiritual pain when I felt like there was nowhere to go anymore. but at the same time, my experience is the only thing i've ever felt I've done for myself. for having seen "this," i can't be "there" anymore. yet the ultimate goal is still make all things "there"..."here." in other words, i believe you are completely justified in you post, not that you need justification!

 

Thank you for your heartfelt post!