Do we/can we choose our thoughts?

[JustBHappy]

We choose our future thoughts through are present thought, speech and actions. Not in any exact way, but rather we create the causes and conditions for thoughts to arise.

In the present moment, thoughts will always arise from past seeds that have been planted and watered. We don't choose them, they simply sprout up. Nobody knows what their next thought will be. When thoughts arise we can then choose whether to follow them and feed them so they grow, or simply watch them pass away and replaced by another thought (ripening of our Karma).

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[JustBHappy]

Exactly. Why do people fail to see this? Start acting now or your stream of consciousness led by our own karma will flow for eternity in circles, like a merry-go-round powered by an endless battery (karma itself). There will be lots of lights (you'll be thinking wow, my life is amazing, I am so happy) and periods of darkness (life is miserable, I wish I were dead) powered by your ego-mind, which ultimately is illusory.

 

Work hard now because physical death is always around the corner. At least you'll be setting up the conditions for a better rebirth.

 

 

I think many people do fail to see this, but for me it's more than that.

 

I can see it, I can have an intellectual understanding, but that doesn't necessarily protect me from habitually reacting and continuing the cycle. knowing and understanding takes time to become habituated, to become the normal method of operation. We have unconsciously followed our thoughts for so long that it takes time to stop that momentum. Even just becoming aware of our thoughts is a huge step. Then once we start seeing the thoughts, we can start to not get so caught up in their content.

 

We are all going to fall back into habit despite any high and lofty philosophical understanding. Slowly slowly, we make progress. Hopefully we can look back and see that we react much less than we did 5 years ago. If it took us one week to stop replaying and feeding some negative thought patterns, maybe it only takes us a few days now. Then a few hours, then a few minutes. One day we will have become so habituated to allowing thoughts to come and go that nothing will stick unless we want it to and we will only act, not react and thus break the cycle. This will then become the new habit and will be natural and effortless at that point.

 

It's not easy, in the heat of the moment we experience physical sensations going along with highly emotionally charged thoughts and often other people around us feed the illusion. It's one thing to sit quietly in meditation, it's quite another to always remain in that awareness and equanimity in post meditation. Ironically we often feed/water the thoughts we should let go of, and let go of the thoughts we should feed/water.

 

[Rara]

Oh my. Check out "Sam Harris on Free Will", Youtube. This is a right mind bender!

[Stosh]

Im thinking I 'get' the rant, frustration at not being able to get a staight- honest seeming answers would do it for me.

But you didnt lose your mind over it , and so you were already exercising some control over your emotions..letting a little out and holding a little back.

That your doings dont fall into the nice category all the time says you match the rest of humanity.

I like emotional honesty , but some folks prefer not to be made aware of strong emotions ( probably because they are too wrapped up squashing in their own)

So theres an example of the subjective nature of niceness.

Internal divisions of the mind are unpleasant , and feeling unified , feeling one is wholly involved is not. again you are not alone in thinking so.

As for taking lifetimes ,, well , each lifetime will just have to make the progress it can, who is keeping track ?

 

In this thread it looks like you are getting a consistent reply , but if it aint exactly what you are wanting to know .. you might specify even further and-or divide into multiple threads ( your attendance to this thread helps keep it on line --so its a good one)

[Birch]

Thanks Stosh:-)

 

It is a good thread, isn't it? Actually, I'm looking for a definitive answer so I can stick it to some New Age bullies offline (the 'back story' on this story as I am presently struggling quite some with it and it is also causing me physical and emotional hurt, since it seems some people would rather tell someone who is expressing hurt that they can choose not to be hurt (rather than perhaps say, 'I really want you to not show hurt'), so that's like a double kick in the guts because as a relatively consistent meditator, I feel I AM doing what I can on this whole thing.

 

Anyway, I did lose it the other day (offline) and I haven't entirely calmed down since. Maybe the sexy Sam Harris will help. I also picked up a few book titles on 'choice' and another one on 'gratitude' (more of the things that were shoved at me by these people).

 

[Birch]

Oh my. Check out "Sam Harris on Free Will", Youtube. This is a right mind bender!

 

Could you post the link?

 

Thank you:-)

[Stosh]

Thanks Stosh:-) It is a good thread, isn't it? Actually, I'm looking for a definitive answer so I can stick it to some New Age bullies offline (the 'back story' on this story as I am presently struggling quite some with it and it is also causing me physical and emotional hurt, since it seems some people would rather tell someone who is expressing hurt that they can choose not to be hurt (rather than perhaps say, 'I really want you to not show hurt'), so that's like a double kick in the guts because as a relatively consistent meditator, I feel I AM doing what I can on this whole thing. Anyway, I did lose it the other day (offline) and I haven't entirely calmed down since. Maybe the sexy Sam Harris will help. I also picked up a few book titles on 'choice' and another one on 'gratitude' (more of the things that were shoved at me by these people).

I wish I knew what "new age" means

Have you considered leaving them to wallow in their ignorance

The search for new philosophy ends really only when one becomes satisfied with the understanding they have.

I suppose you know Its likely that they wont accept a rightened view regardless of the best argument you can make.

But I encourage you to kick their arses with cool and style. (figuratively of course)

As I have mentioned a long time ago , as someone told me, (and I find it to be true) it takes a full three days to get over being good and ticked off.( metabolic byproducts I guess)

 

[hydrogen]

 

 

I can see it, I can have an intellectual understanding, but that doesn't necessarily protect me from habitually reacting and continuing the cycle. knowing and understanding takes time to become habituated, to become the normal method of operation. We have unconsciously followed our thoughts for so long that it takes time to stop that momentum.

 

 

Yes, the scientists have proven that the habitual thinking physically create grooves and channels in our brain over years. The law of least resistance state that the energy will flow in the easiest way. Initally I have to watch the negative flow of my thinking and powerless to change them. But it's OK. I've done worse things before and I got pardoned by "God".

 

Instead trying to erase the grooves and channels in my brain, I try to resue them for different purpose. Basically I try to modify my old engines from runing on anger and fear to running on love and compassion. I haven't figured out exactly how yet. I just don't want to destroy something that has been conditioned for over fourty years.

 

I'm not the "kill ego or cut root of ego" crowds. It seems to me they are building more powrful weapons for world peace. Who knows. It might work for some people. I prefer recycle and reuse over demolish and rebuild.

Edited April 16, 2013 by hydrogen

[hydrogen]

Thanks Stosh:-) It is a good thread, isn't it? Actually, I'm looking for a definitive answer so I can stick it to some New Age bullies offline

 

Some bullies are just insecure crying babies looking for approval from you. They don't have enough conviction/energy to build their world. They need to convince others to agree on their world view so they can be sure of theirselves.

 

It's not easy to deal with any people. Even some sages have to avoid outside influence initally to build up themselves first for a few years.

[joeblast]

Thank you JB, I thought (sic) it was something like that :-)

 

I also want to suggest with some amount of dispute to the people suggesting it's 'easy' (which is what it looks like is being suggested with this 'merely' idea above - and this has also been suggested to me by non-meditators of a more New Age ilk:-)) that it's NOT easy, at least not IME easy. And I am swearing internally as I write:-)

 

Hasn't been (unless you count the month or so of the discovery of 'meditation' at the start) and at this moment still isn't 'easy'. And it also looks like I have a 'thing' about the suggestion it is easy. Like I have a 'thing' about the 'positive thinking' movement:-) Or this notion that we choose our thoughts - for would that be entirely true without some amount of hard work (apparently) - What are so many of us taking years to accomplish (who said it may take lifetimes?!) ?

 

Anyway, if this choice off the bat were the case, what do you (no 'you' in particular) think I'd choose off the bat?

I'm assuming I'd choose 'nice' and 'helpful' things. So why is that not the case to begin with?

 

I've been at this thing for a few years and it has been quite the difficult, painful (literally, but trying to explain how friction from thoughts is physically painful, well I'll leave that one for another day:-))

 

Now on the interaction with emotions. I agree totally that they do add fuel of sorts - in some cases this is generated intentionally (as in some practices), in many cases it is not. The neuroscience folks are getting around to discussing the interactions and I posted some stuff on polyvagal theory down in the OT.

 

Anyway, my point on the 'mind only' part of this is that I don't think it tells the full story:-)

 

--somewhat of a rant, not apologizing for it--

heh, I dont think I recall anyone saying it was easy....I think that's just people having conflated simple with easy!

 

think of the idea of non discriminating view - neither attaching positively nor negatively - that is a good way to start out on conditioning one's thoughts and habits. so just the idea of "dammit I keep thinking this" is an attaching view, albeit a negative one. neural impulses generally last 30 seconds, a minute, a minute fifteen perhaps...outside of that - any furtherance of the thoughtform is because you furthered it. that is where something like mantra meditation is very effective because as I said in my previous post, what that is doing is immediately directing the thought-stream-energy somewhere else that is not related - so you are ceasing the discriminating view - which will ultimately lead to the incorrect view not having sufficient energetic potential to manifest in the thought-stream-energy.

 

so it is the redirection that is important - what about bob, think baby steps - so take the first step of choosing the direction your thoughtstreamenergy will manifest! (sure the old forms will also manifest, but when they do, simply reinforce the other thoughtform, the constructive one. your mind may not want to let you and may keep popping up....but it is no different than taming the thoughts by watching the breath, when you find you are thinking, just return to the breath. when you find you are on that old thoughtformpattern again, simply redirect to the new thoughtform pattern as unperturbed as possible, as many times as necessary.)

[Jetsun]

It might just be the ego talking when you are of the view that you should choose new thoughts, or create new thoughtforms which are somehow better than the other ones

[Birch]

I wish I knew what "new age" means

Have you considered leaving them to wallow in their ignorance

The search for new philosophy ends really only when one becomes satisfied with the understanding they have.

I suppose you know Its likely that they wont accept a rightened view regardless of the best argument you can make.

But I encourage you to kick their arses with cool and style. (figuratively of course)

As I have mentioned a long time ago , as someone told me, (and I find it to be true) it takes a full three days to get over being good and ticked off.( metabolic byproducts I guess)

 

'New Age' of the type I'm referring to (and the bully-sorts I'm referring to) to me is well described in a link that I'd share if I weren't so concerned about it inflaming some other TTB's who I consider to be of the 'New Age' sort and who don't engage with me on that level. So while that might sound 'passive aggressive' - my intent in not sharing it is to avoid conflict with fellow members on a forum I generally appreciate being on:-) If you're interested, I can PM it.

 

The offline ones are (soon to become a 'were' perhaps?) unfortunately quite close friends but the more recent thing has caused me to question whether it was really very friendly and to what extent I will be able to enjoy their company in the future. Perhaps on a very superficial level. I'm going to wait until those 'metabolic byproducts' disperse :-) I think I know what you're referring to, I call it the 'been dragged backwards through a hedge' feeling. It's linked to the adrenals from what I can figure of it.

 

:-)

[Birch]

Some bullies are just insecure crying babies looking for approval from you. They don't have enough conviction/energy to build their world. They need to convince others to agree on their world view so they can be sure of theirselves.

 

It's not easy to deal with any people. Even some sages have to avoid outside influence initally to build up themselves first for a few years.

Those are some interesting points Hydrogen. I agree that happens a lot. I didn't get the sense this time that they were insecure in their conviction though. They seemed pretty convinced to me. It reminded me of some kind of fundamentalism.

[Birch]

heh, I dont think I recall anyone saying it was easy....I think that's just people having conflated simple with easy!

 

think of the idea of non discriminating view - neither attaching positively nor negatively - that is a good way to start out on conditioning one's thoughts and habits. so just the idea of "dammit I keep thinking this" is an attaching view, albeit a negative one. neural impulses generally last 30 seconds, a minute, a minute fifteen perhaps...outside of that - any furtherance of the thoughtform is because you furthered it. that is where something like mantra meditation is very effective because as I said in my previous post, what that is doing is immediately directing the thought-stream-energy somewhere else that is not related - so you are ceasing the discriminating view - which will ultimately lead to the incorrect view not having sufficient energetic potential to manifest in the thought-stream-energy.

 

so it is the redirection that is important - what about bob, think baby steps - so take the first step of choosing the direction your thoughtstreamenergy will manifest! (sure the old forms will also manifest, but when they do, simply reinforce the other thoughtform, the constructive one. your mind may not want to let you and may keep popping up....but it is no different than taming the thoughts by watching the breath, when you find you are thinking, just return to the breath. when you find you are on that old thoughtformpattern again, simply redirect to the new thoughtform pattern as unperturbed as possible, as many times as necessary.)

Thanks JB.

[Birch]

It might just be the ego talking when you are of the view that you should choose new thoughts, or create new thoughtforms which are somehow better than the other ones

I think you might be on to something Jetsun. What I've also noticed is that I meditate the way I am (I mean the conditioned me) so the whole suppressive/control your thoughts (and feelings) thing could just be a continuation of that. And I know where that has its roots (I think).

 

The more I contemplate it, the more it does seem that way but well, have to be discerning... I wrote a post a while back about just 'switching one 'pointy hat' for another 'pointy hat'' in this process and it seems this bears out all the way into my practice.

[Stosh]

'New Age' of the type I'm referring to (and the bully-sorts I'm referring to) to me is well described in a link that I'd share if I weren't so concerned about it inflaming some other TTB's who I consider to be of the 'New Age' sort and who don't engage with me on that level. So while that might sound 'passive aggressive' - my intent in not sharing it is to avoid conflict with fellow members on a forum I generally appreciate being on:-) If you're interested, I can PM it.

 

The offline ones are (soon to become a 'were' perhaps?) unfortunately quite close friends but the more recent thing has caused me to question whether it was really very friendly and to what extent I will be able to enjoy their company in the future. Perhaps on a very superficial level. I'm going to wait until those 'metabolic byproducts' disperse :-) I think I know what you're referring to, I call it the 'been dragged backwards through a hedge' feeling. It's linked to the adrenals from what I can figure of it.

 

:-)

I guess Ill find out eventually about that new age thing , its just a term that gets thrown around.

The way you weigh things out , is up to you , but I would share this personal take .. If I expected everyone

to agree with me on everything , or took everything to be a deal breaker ...well , I wouldnt be showing much tolerance.

Folks can be fun for the same reason that they are annoying -sometimes - in that they don't have the opinions that we do.

But disrespect in that arena - is hard to overlook for long.

So yep , wait out the cooling down period and reassess.

[Clarity]

Why not just delete the thoughts? I mean the Buddha said one should cultivate a mind that does not dwell.

 

This is very different from perceiving that you have a thought, making a judgement about the thought, and coming up with a different thought. Already you are entangled in the form of thoughts!

 

Your friends are just being passive-aggressive. Maybe find nicer friends, eh?

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Birch]

Who are you talking to Chris?

 

Also the last part, I don't understand the differences. Could you get into that?

[Birch]

Why not just delete the thoughts? I mean the Buddha said one should cultivate a mind that does not dwell.

 

This is very different from perceiving that you have a thought, making a judgement about the thought, and coming up with a different thought. Already you are entangled in the form of thoughts!

 

Your friends are just being passive-aggressive. Maybe find nicer friends, eh?

 

Ah, Clarity, if I had to find nicer people for every passive aggressive friend or person I've had in my life so far, well, sometimes I think there'll be no-one left at all! And that would be quite a lonely existence...

 

I agree with you to some extent about the tangling up. Deleting sort of seems kind of like a sneaky thought - an 'anti-thought'? :-)

 

 

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Clarity]

Dwelling means non-attachment not free of thoughts, if I understand correctly.

 

http://reluctant-messenger.com/diamond_sutra.htm

 

Right, not dwelling means not identifying, not attaching. It doesn't mean we never think or have a thought!

 

What does it mean to cultivate a mind that does not dwell in form?

 

There's a difference between being free of thought (never having any) and free from the tyranny of thought.

[Birch]

Talking to you and also responding to Clarity's deleting thoughts reply.

 

The view of the five skandhas: that you can describe/classify experience in terms of the skandhas. The view of energetics: sensations of qi (propably form/sensation/perception skandha), seeing energy (form/perception).

 

Not saying that there is anything wrong with energetics: actually very powerful stuff. But we need to look into the nature of awareness. Which is what the skandhas point to: that we are not what is part of the skandhas. What are we then? Good question!

 

Meditating correctly on thoughts

 

http://www.mahamudracenter.org/mmcmembermeditationguide.pdf

 

I also found Greg Goode's Direct Path book helpful in terms of breaking down your experience.

 

Thanks Chris. I don't know enough about the skandas as a system to address this properly but I felt I agreed with what 3bob had to say about it in the other thread that's going on.