Do we/can we choose our thoughts?

[JustARandomPanda]

Right, not dwelling means not identifying, not attaching. It doesn't mean we never think or have a thought!

 

What does it mean to cultivate a mind that does not dwell in form?

 

There's a difference between being free of thought (never having any) and free from the tyranny of thought.

 

+1 to the above. This is what my current work has been focusing on. I've had a bad "addiction" as it were to heavy thinking. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I can have spells of up to 30-35 seconds before another thought arises.

 

I do remember this one time about 1.5 years ago that I was meditating. Not even sure how I got "into the zone" so to speak. It was at night and I was able to feel a lot of energy running through my system for some reason. That's not usual but occasionally it does pop up.

 

The interesting thing is that this one time I actually experienced what I think the Buddha was getting at. It was as if "I" were not attached to either my thoughts or emotions nor even my breathing! It was odd but wonderful! If I had to use an analogy it was as if there was this 3rd Party "perspective" that yet is not a "person" yet was still watching the process of breathing and there was a slip-shod-breezy or non-attached freedom to the whole experience.

 

I finally came out of it...dissipated...but wow. It totally re-oriented my understanding of what the Buddha had always talked about in sutras and suttas of how training in one-pointed concentration finally allows one to gain an easy, breezy freedom from being lock-linked to one's mind (all aspects thereof), from one's chi(!!!) and one's breath (and thus one's body). That moment taught me as few others have that I am most definitely not what I've always thought and experienced myself as being. Quite surprising!

 

It was amazing.

 

Alas I've never had that spontaneous occurrence happen like that again but I still remember it to this day. Do I still think it was a "state"? Yes but that's ok. It just was what it was. Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy.

 

Damn was it awesome. It made a believer out of me that meditation and qigong are absolutely worth investing one's time and effort into.

[Clarity]

Ah, Clarity, if I had to find nicer people for every passive aggressive friend or person I've had in my life so far, well, sometimes I think there'll be no-one left at all! And that would be quite a lonely existence... I agree with you to some extent about the tangling up. Deleting sort of seems kind of like a sneaky thought - an 'anti-thought'? :-)

 

There would be you, alone with your thoughts....strengthened and deleted.

 

Everyone can be passive-aggressive from time to time, but if it's ALL the time and all your friends behave in this way, then you would want to look at that situation.

[Clarity]

Also, you can delete or disentangle the cumulative effect of all your past experiences of thinking.

 

I mean the mind may be a menagerie but that doesn't mean we have to feed the beast!

 

When I start having thoughts, I look for the weakness. Who is thinking and where are these thoughts coming from?

[Birch]

Thanks Clarity. No, it's just this specific person or couple of people that are riding the New Age bus to the point where their empathy has gotten off before their beliefs have.

 

Actually, one of them is less on the New Age bus and finds the other a bit quirky with that stuff but lays into me because she herself did the very thing I expressed hurt and upset at. I only found that part out the other day. So I can understand that makes her uncomfortable. What I don't understand is why attack me for it?

[Stosh]

Maybe to show to herself that she learned a lesson about it.

[Birch]

By attacking me? Ok, I'm feeling exceptionally thick at this stuff. Would you mind explaining Stosh?

[Stosh]

 

By attacking me? Ok, I'm feeling exceptionally thick at this stuff. Would you mind explaining Stosh?

Its tough to explain , folks find out what they think as they speak. The reformed are always the most vehement promoters of stuff they abandoned. It takes some convincing to believe a new thing. As for why you in particular ? It could be that it is important to her that you in particular see her improvement, or it may be that you presented the first opportunity. Lucky you Now I will go back to my usual habit of dropping this stuff for an evening of peace..I wanted to just establish communication via texting. Nighty night. Edited April 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

Why not just delete the thoughts? I mean the Buddha said one should cultivate a mind that does not dwell.

 

This is very different from perceiving that you have a thought, making a judgement about the thought, and coming up with a different thought. Already you are entangled in the form of thoughts!

 

Your friends are just being passive-aggressive. Maybe find nicer friends, eh?

 

 

You make it sound so simple, as if the effort of picking up a stone is impossible by contrast!

And yet, intuitively, i know it is... just not "how". and so i tangle us more than before.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Birch]

Haha RV, no. It looks like TV media and popular books. It looks like websites and blogs. It looks like psychotherapeutic practice and socially-endorsed group therapies...

[Stosh]

It doesnt sound inherently bad

unless its all wrong

which traditionals can be as well

 

I know folks who have cars that all look alike

they dress alike ,

they think alike

their homes are alike

their divorces are alike

and their psychiatrists are alike

is the bus alike ?? it brings to mind

buses of another era.

 

The rebellion of the hippie era did show its behind when it failed to

find a wholesome basis for social behavior ( like family and work ) that could

compete with standard views ,, but that doesnt really negate all

the dreams of a better way ,, and a similar point might be made for the dream behind communism

which could be viable someday , but fails in its attempt now because the power is so corrosive,

and no one really aspires to the crappiest jobs.

 

OOps , too serious, oh well

Edited April 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Ah, Clarity, if I had to find nicer people for every passive aggressive friend or person I've had in my life so far, well, sometimes I think there'll be no-one left at all! And that would be quite a lonely existence... I agree with you to some extent about the tangling up. Deleting sort of seems kind of like a sneaky thought - an 'anti-thought'? :-)

I've stolen clarity's method and tried it on recently. i think its working but to be honest, i cant tell lol.

 

It seems sneaky and underhanded if in context of application to others, but to self... i find that "deletion" is only good for fears.

 

Otherwise, thoughts are just coming and going, if there's a thought that plagues you, it might be attatched to a fear.

Strengthening your weaknesses as clarity has described, should improve your ability to let go of fears.

 

Thereon, it should be a matter of finding and identifying the weaknesses so they can be strengthened; fears will be easier to identify and delete as you allow yourself to become stronger.

 

A fear of becoming strong could be deleated.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[idiot_stimpy]

That which is perceiving the thoughts is also a thought.

[Birch]

That which is perceiving the thoughts is also a thought.

I had a thought like too at one point but I don't believe it anymore.

[idiot_stimpy]

What I mean is, the effort directed to view the thoughts as they appear is also mental conditioning.

 

Subject and object are only labels created in the mind. Just as reality, time and space are also created labels of the mind.

[thetaoiseasy]

..

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Birch]

What I mean is, the effort directed to view the thoughts as they appear is also mental conditioning.

 

Subject and object are only labels created in the mind. Just as reality, time and space are also created labels of the mind.

Ah yes. The first thing I agree with.

[Birch]

edit. probably not the right thread for a ramble.

No, it's a good thread for it!

[Xienkula1]

We don't necessarily choose our thoughts at least not consciously, some of them we are imprinted with, when I find a thought that I find limiting of my perception I say ''I forgive myself for believing and being imprinted with the thought for so long that .....'' I say this aloud almost like a mantra for as long as I can with as much awareness as possible, I feel how that thought feels in my body, what kind of tension it creates then, I will feel emotion underneath that thought use sound to penetrate it and vibrate it as much as possible, feel as much as I can....then after the emotional charge is vibrated, usually I will reach an ignition where I get really terrified or pissed off that this is the way things are, my body will go spontaneous, sounds will come out, somewhat like an exorcism, once fully done, having vibrated as much as possible then the No! No! (high and low) is sounded repeatedly from my center until I feel a clearing....this helps me see new possibilities that didnt exist before this thought was like a prison keeping my chi in a cage....then I feel more able to make changes and move forwards, if the thought was not fully released it comes back full circle and surfaces as situations designed according to it's laws "to prove itself right,"

[Jetsun]

Personally I think the vast majority of people are completely and utterly controlled by their thoughts and one of the main things which keeps people asleep and in delusion is the belief that they are in control. It is one of the main tricks and survival mechanisms of the ego to convince you that you are controlling the mind rather than realise that it is controlling you, but nobody will believe you if you tell them that as it is threatening to their pride and sense of self.

[Birch]

I quite believe it Jetsun. I also noticed that even though I don't watch TV I do use internet and so I pick up popular expressions from there without even realizing it.

[hydrogen]

Personally I think the vast majority of people are completely and utterly controlled by their thoughts and one of the main things which keeps people asleep and in delusion is the belief that they are in control. It is one of the main tricks and survival mechanisms of the ego to convince you that you are controlling the mind rather than realise that it is controlling you, but nobody will believe you if you tell them that as it is threatening to their pride and sense of self.

 

Nothing is inherently good or bad, even water can kill, so is ego.

 

Is gravity controlling us to keep us on earth? Or is gravity keep everything in order for us to be sane?

 

Without ego, do you know how to survive day to day? Or without ego, do you know anything? Or without ego, do you exist?

 

I heard way too many people talking about how much they hate their parents, hate their body, hate their face? Are we going to carry this attitude into our spirtiual journey as well?

[Jetsun]

 

Nothing is inherently good or bad, even water can kill, so is ego.

 

Is gravity controlling us to keep us on earth? Or is gravity keep everything in order for us to be sane?

 

Without ego, do you know how to survive day to day? Or without ego, do you know anything? Or without ego, do you exist?

 

I heard way too many people talking about how much they hate their parents, hate their body, hate their face? Are we going to carry this attitude into our spirtiual journey as well?

I didn't say the ego was bad or we need to get rid of it, we just need to see the truth. But your questions are good, would we know how to survive day to day without the thoughts which constitute the ego?

[Birch]

"Are we going to carry this attitude into our spirtiual journey as well?"

 

My experience is that yes indeed, this is what happens.

I was reading some other stuff the other day on the self-mutilating monks. Why? Why would they do such a thing?

[Stosh]

Agreeing with K here , folks do seem to carry baggage into the spiritual realm too , as long as they are still attmempting to 'attain' thats the case , and I guess, to the point of self mutilation.Trying to attain,, one is still not accepting that which is , its aspiring to that which is not , some folks read suffering and sacrifice to be the means to attainment ,,acceptance on the other hand, is the message of Tao ,( as I see it ) addressing just this issue exactly ( among others)

From the little I have read , Buddha also tried that long path and in the end concluded that the best path lay along a middle way of restraint-- but not self demolition- to accumulate the lessons of experience as to what is illusion and what is truth, letting go of baggage as enlightenment came back to one.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Stosh