Wisdom from Scientists

[Vmarco]

There is no false or truth.

 

@Vmarco, may one know to gnow?

No,...to gnow, one must unknow.

 

All knowledge is false. All gnowledge is true. All knowledge arise from the 5 skandhas. Gnowledge is that when knowing is uncovered.

 

"As long as your shallow worldly ambitions exist (ie, hopes, beliefs, attachments to traditions) the door will not open." Lao Tzu

 

Lao Tzu said, "the only way to understand [the Tao] is to directly experience it."

 

It is impossible to have a direct experience through the 6 senses,...all experience born of the 6 senses can only be experienced through the conditions of the 6 senses. The 6 senses are: seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking,...each arising from its associative sense organ.

 

The Liberation of Sentient Beings, begins with uncovering oneself to the point before the indoctrination that clings to the 6 senses began. Thus, the second most important Buddhist proverb says, "Find the consciousness you had before you were born."

 

One does not surrender to "oneself",...one surrenders the delusion of oneself. Yes,...one's self thinks it is "god," that it is divine,...and that thinking is a barrier to Gnowledge.

 

Surrender is letting go of all the concepts that one thinks they are,...which is why Buddhists do not believe in god. As long as one believes in "god," in any form, no surrender has occurred.

 

"The biggest crux to the evolution of humanity is breaking through your own indoctrination. It is very, very difficult to overcome emotional elements that have become so engrained in you, that you have an immediate reaction, an immediate suffering and pain, if something interfers with [your idea of the status quo]. It's a very, very complex problem. We have to learn how to identify and break our own indoctrination if we expect to move forward at all as a civilization" PJ Merola

[manitou]

A clearly stated position , but something I havent heard is

just what is someone to make of other persons being limited

by the same conditions that limit us -like gravity.

Doubly said ,

If a person has a child, that kid will be just as affected by whatever the heck gravity is.

So though the 'knowability' of of gravity can be debated ( whether one can be sure of it personally- I doubt it - certainty is a sentiment )

the fact of it is corroborated at least ( uncertain as that may be).

 

This rings home with me. When I first got sober 31 years ago, I had to come up with a 'god of my own understanding'. I certainly didn't have one, I had long since discarded Christianity.

 

So the 'power greater than myself' that I could believe in was Gravity. That's what I used. Actually, my concept is not too awfully different 31 years later.

[Stosh]

On knows their thoughts come and go they include those things that one experiences.

My memory of the pasta I ate last night is gone as gone can be

Invented from seeming nothingness and dissappearing back to it ,

our experience of feelings and sentiments leaves no track

They are called unreal ,descriptively, they are imaginary constructs

Time is something one cannot truly apprehend ,,

we remember some of yesterday

and we expect some of tomorrow

We explain the difference between the effect of hitting water from a great height

versus the effects of hitting water from a low one with a constuct about time.

If time was our own false imaginary construct WITH NO BASIS of fact,,,

then smacking the water wouldnt happen! one would always ease into it .

Though we cant define the basis for theings to be as they are ,

we can describe how things really appear to be , calling it fact.

One can turn the rules of the game upside down , calling spirit real and matter false

but the same subjective experience that undermines FACT is the thing one would be

using to prove spirit as REAL.

So the stance of having anything be real , embodies both spirit and fact.

They both stake claim to reality. Its just that science tries to anchor real in an objectively

corroborative manner wheras spirit one just holds as self evident.

[Stosh]

This rings home with me. When I first got sober 31 years ago, I had to come up with a 'god of my own understanding'. I certainly didn't have one, I had long since discarded Christianity.

 

So the 'power greater than myself' that I could believe in was Gravity. That's what I used. Actually, my concept is not too awfully different 31 years later.

You and gravity are coequal , gravity limits your movement possibilities , and you have a will to move , which gravity doesnt.

Like little demi-god you can both experience, create, do , forever changing the character of what happens.

Gravity part of the tao , can be your buddy

Never heard of a god of gravity before , very creative , seems like there should be one

Edited April 18, 2013 by Stosh

[Vmarco]

 

This rings home with me. When I first got sober 31 years ago, I had to come up with a 'god of my own understanding'. I certainly didn't have one, I had long since discarded Christianity.

 

So the 'power greater than myself' that I could believe in was Gravity. That's what I used. Actually, my concept is not too awfully different 31 years later.

Pretty tough getting beyond the Positive-Negativism of the 12 Steps. If gravity, or any aspect of the 5 skandhas, is delegated as a power greater than the Heart of our Essence, then the Tao will not be understood.

 

All perceived powers greater than ourself's, are manifestations of ego. Where there is Undivided Light,...there is no ego, no gravity, no time, no mass, no speed, no Yin/Yang, no 5 skandha's, and surely, no 12 Step concept.

 

As Osho correctly said,..."consolation is not the right thing."

[Stosh]

"I want you to know my understanding" he says in the very first few seconds.

Later he says anybody that gives you a belief system shouldnt have credibility to you.

what knowing of his understanding would not be affecting your beliefs.

 

On consolation , it can be misplaced like anything else, as can abuse.

 

How many cars was it that he owned ?

 

To Osho

"Why do you like your Rolls Royces so much?
I have tried all kinds of cars; and even Rolls Royce has many types and I have tried them too. Their best is the Corniche, but it doesn't suit me. It is a question of my back. I need a certain kind of chair—I use only this chair. It has been made by my sannyasins exactly to give support to my back, because doctors have said that they cannot do anything more.
Experts from England were called to India. They tried hard, and they said, "It is impossible. You will have to live with it." It was just a coincidence that one of the models of Rolls Royce, Silver Spur, suited me. The driver's seat in that car fits perfectly, gives me no trouble. Naturally, my people love….
They don't belong to me, those cars—nothing belongs to me. I am the poorest man in the whole world, living the richest life possible."

Edited April 19, 2013 by Stosh

[manitou]

Pretty tough getting beyond the Positive-Negativism of the 12 Steps. If gravity, or any aspect of the 5 skandhas, is delegated as a power greater than the Heart of our Essence, then the Tao will not be understood.

 

All perceived powers greater than ourself's, are manifestations of ego. Where there is Undivided Light,...there is no ego, no gravity, no time, no mass, no speed, no Yin/Yang, no 5 skandha's, and surely, no 12 Step concept.

 

As Osho correctly said,..."consolation is not the right thing."

 

 

You've mentioned this before, about the negativitism of the 12 steps. All I know is I would be dead were it not for them.

 

Marco, I'm not sure you fully understand them. They start the peeling onion process, that's all. If one is persistent and sticks with it for years, ultimately you find the pony under the manure pile.

 

And there would be what was hidden from me that I was always looking for. The steps are the reason I am here with you.

[Vmarco]

 

 

You've mentioned this before, about the negativitism of the 12 steps. All I know is I would be dead were it not for them.

 

Marco, I'm not sure you fully understand them. They start the peeling onion process, that's all. If one is persistent and sticks with it for years, ultimately you find the pony under the manure pile.

 

And there would be what was hidden from me that I was always looking for. The steps are the reason I am here with you.

Yes,...I understand that the 12 Steps move people from one belief to another,...the other usually being acceptable to society-at-large. It is an awesome idea that the 12 Steps "start oa onion peeling process"...but will do nothing of real value until one peels away the 12 Steps.

 

The 12 Steps could be said to be Positive,...yet are simultaneously Negative, in that very few can peel away the opiate that 12 Steppers now cling to for their identity,...every Step is based on a lie.

 

Many may believe that following enough lies leads to truth,...but the reality of truth realization is that truth cannot be known until the lies are dissolved.

 

What does this mean? Until a 12 Stepper can see that every Step is a lie, they will NEVER get to the end of the onion.

 

As Osho said in the Youtube above,..."consolation is not the right thing"

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

or in short, experience is the teacher, not obedience.

[Stosh]

^{Beware borrowed credibility.}

^{especially when the ' source ' drives a rolls}

^{and tells you you need to abandon your beliefs}

^{but listen to his}

[ChiDragon]

Experience is not the teacher. It depends on the ability of the student; how much can one be absorbed and digested by intuition.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

What i meant was no person outside yourself can be a better teacher. Regardless of who is teaching you, it is the experience that drives the lesson.


Focusing on the experience more than the recital makes the student his own teacher.

[Vmarco]

Experience is not the teacher. It depends on the ability of the student; how much can one be absorbed and digested by intuition.

On a related note:

 

A Buddhist story tells of a student who wished to make an offering to Siddhartha Gautama and so brought a flowering branch to a gathering. As the pupil approached, Siddhartha said to him, “Throw it away.” Quickly, thinking he was supposed to discard the branch, the pupil threw it away. Yet Siddhartha again said, “Throw it away.” The student could not comprehend what he was supposed to do. Siddhartha then said, “Throw yourself away.” And the novice stood there confounded, pondering how he could throw himself away.

 

If the student had his “I am” before his “i think,” there would not have been a reason to “throw it away.” For those not from the culture of the Indian subcontinent, it can be rather difficult to grasp the pupil’s situation. Buddhists traditionally have a more cardio-centric, heart-centered society, in contrast to the Western cerebro-centric, brain-centered social conditioning. Even so, few on any continent seem willing to let go of who they think they are to realize who they actually are. People fear their light. The Buddha Siddhartha reportedly said, “Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own thoughts.”

[manitou]

Yes,...I understand that the 12 Steps move people from one belief to another,...the other usually being acceptable to society-at-large. It is an awesome idea that the 12 Steps "start oa onion peeling process"...but will do nothing of real value until one peels away the 12 Steps.

 

The 12 Steps could be said to be Positive,...yet are simultaneously Negative, in that very few can peel away the opiate that 12 Steppers now cling to for their identity,...every Step is based on a lie.

 

Many may believe that following enough lies leads to truth,...but the reality of truth realization is that truth cannot be known until the lies are dissolved.

 

What does this mean? Until a 12 Stepper can see that every Step is a lie, they will NEVER get to the end of the onion.

 

As Osho said in the Youtube above,..."consolation is not the right thing"

 

 

Please understand that a 12 stepper, having peeled his onion for 31 years, has evolved into an awareness that has nothing to do with what his concept that he adopted at the beginning of his journey. My concept of the underlying intelligence has evolved over the 31 years, as yours has no doubt done as well.

 

Your mention of 'consolation is not the right thing' only tells me you've never been to a recovery meeting.