Chen Xiaowang: Taoist Religion Lineage or Tai Chi Lineage Only?

[silas]

Is the Chen Xiaowang lineage only for the business of teaching a form of Tai Chi or do they truly practice Taoist religion?

[三江源]

Is the Chen Xiaowang lineage only for the business of teaching a form of Tai Chi or do they truly practice Taoist religion?

Business v religion? Why such a limited dualistic menu?

[silas]

Business v religion? Why such a limited dualistic menu?

 

Because if it's primarily a business, it treats people one way. If it is primarily a religion, it treats people another way.

Edited April 16, 2013 by silas

[shanlung]

Is the Chen Xiaowang lineage only for the business of teaching a form of Tai Chi or do they truly practice Taoist religion?

 

 

Chen XiaoWang is the acknowledged GrandMaster(JangMengPai) and lineage transmitter of Chen Jia Taijichuan. Nothing like the business of teaching as known in the West where rubbish are taught as a business.

 

What has that to do with truly practice of Taoist religion?

 

Tell us first what do you deem as true practice? An innuendo that you the authority on what is true?

You some kind of GrandExpert?

So much of a GrandExpert that you cannot differentiate taijichuan and Taoism?

 

Tell us what you know of Taijichaun and Taoism.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

Edited April 17, 2013 by shanlung

[三江源]

Because if it's primarily a business, it treats people one way. If it is primarily a religion, it treats people another way.

Why such a limited dualistic menu?

[silas]

Chen XiaoWang is the acknowledged GrandMaster(JangMengPai) and lineage transmitter of Chen Jia Taijichuan. Nothing like the business of teaching as known in the West where rubbish are taught as a business.

 

What has that to do with truly practice of Taoist religion?

 

Tell us first what do you deem as true practice? An innuendo that you the authority on what is true?

You some kind of GrandExpert?

 

No, Idiotic Taoist, I am no expert. That's why I'm asking you. Taoism and TaiChi are related. Some businesses with that lineage claim to be Taoist. Is there NO true standard for the practice of religion? Is it all right to take your money if I put up a sign saying that I teach kung fu in a religious setting, but don't care about religion?

 

 

Why such a limited dualistic menu?

 

Because those are the two things I'm interesting in at this time. Why NOT such a limited menu? Are you trying to say that religion has such a broad meaning that it could mean anything and should mean anything? If they were to (hypothetically) call themselves Taoists but practice Satanism, is that oK?

Edited April 17, 2013 by silas

[RobB]

My 2c:

 

1. Find a local teacher who has a verifiable link to CXW. Train with them. See if this answers your question.

 

2. Try and avoid arguing with people on the internet.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[shanlung]

Silas,

 

I know you do not know taijichuan, or you be asking me a lot lot more on taijichuan earlier.

 

In what form is taijichuan related to taoism? Symbols?

If so, is Buddhism National Socialism? they used the same symbols , never mind if it point to the right or left.

 

I was a student directly under ChenXiaoWang. For about a period of 2 years or so when he came to SIngapore.

Never once we heard him talked of Taoism. Talking of Ying Yang in context of Taijichuan had little to do with Taoism.

Talking of mechanics of mind in martial taijichuan had little to do with Taoism. Talking of fighting and meeting of challenges had little to do with Taoism. Even away from the dojo and in restaurants and bars where we love to treat CXW, never did he talked of Taoism. I think he never was bothered with Taoism.

 

In his youtube appearances , never seen or heard him talked about Taoism either.

 

In what context has ChenXiaoWang been posturing himself as a Taoist expert?

Have you seen that? if so, I like you to give the links to me for me to go have a look.

 

Is that him or his marketing agent becoming too enthusiastic and more interested in increasing his cut by flogging poor CXW in all kinds of forms?

 

Take care not to extend what is in your mind to other unrelated issues and force a relationship where none existed.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

Edited April 18, 2013 by shanlung

[SmallFrameGrandUltimateFist]

Tao is very much related to Tai Ji Chuan, it offers the very principles upon which the art was created. You have an arrogance about you that only speaks to your own stupidity.

[shanlung]

Tao is very much related to Tai Ji Chuan, it offers the very principles upon which the art was created. You have an arrogance about you that only speaks to your own stupidity.

 

HA HA HA HA

HO HO HO HO

HEE HEE HE HEE HEE

 

ROFLMAO!

 

The best way to teach a fool is to let the fool do it his own way.

Go on! Do it which ever way you want to!

 

Not one of the Masters I had the fortune to be under in taijichuan ever told me taijichuan is Taoism.

 

Almost all the tiny masters and charlatans I known waving arms and legs slowly pretending the chi runs here and runs there knowing nothing at all of taijichuan talked of taiji and Taoism. Weaving rubbish with their fantasies with their students panting for more and more!

 

HA HA HA

HEE HEE HEE

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

Edited April 18, 2013 by shanlung

[ChiDragon]

Is the Chen Xiaowang lineage only for the business of teaching a form of Tai Chi or do they truly practice Taoist religion?

 

Based on what I'd found and viewed from the internet, the former is more appropriate which is so characteristic to your remark.

[Taomeow]

Taijiquan is not "is" taoism, it is, however, a beneficiary of the application of taoist principles to an activity (much like 72 other disciplines discussed in the Taoist Canon that are not "taoism" by themselves but can and historically have been approached from the basis of taoist principles by taoists, and every which way by everybody else).

 

The difference between the pseudomasters Shanlung describes and the real ones is not that the real ones don't use taoist principles in their art -- they do, and then some. The difference is that the real ones do not mention taoist principles and internal work of taijiquan to beginners. Not because they aren't aware of them or are not using them but because discussing them before the physical structure is in place (which takes a minimum of ten years with taijiquan) is like discussing calculus with math beginners who can count from one to ten but are yet to learn the multiplication table. (Math students also take about ten years from beginner to calculus, and "real" math only starts there.)

[ChiDragon]

The thing that is most Taoists do practice Tai Ji Chuan and it was considered Tai Ji is part of their daily life. BTW they do shared and respect the Yin-yang and the Ba Gua symbols which are the universal symbolic signs of Taoism. However, one may exclude Tai Ji Chuan from Taoism; but a Taoist may not be excluded from the practice of Tai Ji Chuan.

Edited April 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[三江源]

 

 

2. Try and avoid arguing with people on the internet.

Excellent practice.

[Taomeow]

The Chens gave Chen taiji to the West very very recently. They all grew up in China -- not Taiwan, not Hong Kong, not Singapore. You have to look from the historic perspective to know why none of them could/would be practitioners of taoist religion. Taoist religion was exterminated where they come from. A revival came later, and in a fashion similar to "Egyptian" architecture of Washington and Philadelphia. Communist functionaries appointed to serve as taoist priests and monks. Mobility and exposure to the outside world, likewise, came later. Whatever they do today "business wise" they learned from us. That's one thing we're good at teaching -- how to turn everything into a business. If you have something real and valuable and unique, and turn it into a business, that's far superior in my book to having something bogus or superfluous and turning that into a business.

 

And, honestly, I don't know how "who deserves what" is decided by the higher powers, but Chen village is proverbial for its poverty (the saying goes something like, "merciful gods, save us from the demons of the underworld and the fields of Chen village"). The Four Tigers lived through a long stretch of time when they couldn't afford even a bicycle -- even ONE bicycle to share -- so any later business success, if anyone begrudges them, is begrudged on a basis I honestly can't comprehend.

[silas]

 

And, honestly, I don't know how "who deserves what" is decided by the higher powers, but Chen village is proverbial for its poverty (the saying goes something like, "merciful gods, save us from the demons of the underworld and the fields of Chen village"). The Four Tigers lived through a long stretch of time when they couldn't afford even a bicycle -- even ONE bicycle to share -- so any later business success, if anyone begrudges them, is begrudged on a basis I honestly can't comprehend.

 

Chen village may be poor but Chen Xiaowang lives in Australia. He travels regularly to start new schools throughout the world and trains new instructors and teaches workshops. There is some semblance of religion in his life because he is trying to restore his family's village and temple, as a birthplace of taijichuan. This picture is of the Chen family graves. Those mausoleum-like structures are not for the poor. For those Chen Taichi schools that claim to be Taoist, my question is: are they religious or are they just a business?

 

[ChiDragon]

........ my question is: are they religious or are they just a business?

 

Perhaps, we should look at it this way. Tai Ji Chuan to begin with was not religious. Traditionally, the art was pledged to be kept as a family secret by not teaching to other families other than the Chen family. Since, someone had broken the family pledge by teaching the art to other families and foreigners, IMO, it is definitely was for business to make a living and other purposes. As you can see, Tai Ji Chuan is a hot potato in making money, in the world, because of the health benefit claims.

 

The students who learned the art and open schools are after making money also. I am not saying that Chen Xiaowang was doing it for the business, but most of his students are foreigners.

Edited April 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[silas]

 

Perhaps, we should look at it this way. Tai Ji Chuan to begin with was not religious.

 

But that is not true. The forms of Taijichuan are said to have been created by a Taoist monk: Zhang Sanfeng (张三丰).

Edited April 18, 2013 by silas

[ChiDragon]

But that is not true. The forms of Taijichuan are said to have been created by a Taoist monk: Zhang Sanfeng (张三丰).

 

Yes, the Tai Ji Chuan was created by a Taoist priest, but the Tai Ji Chuan itself is just a style of martial arts. It is not necessary to be religious.

[silas]

 

Yes, the Tai Ji Chuan was created by a Taoist priest, but the Tai Ji Chuan itself is just a style of martial arts. It is not necessary to be religious.

 

But what if you advertise that you are teaching Taoist Tai Chi? You could teach it as a Taoist-style of TaiChi without religion or you could teach it as TaiChi with religious significance.

 

If it is taught without the religion, is something lost?

[ChiDragon]

But what if you advertise that you are teaching Taoist Tai Chi? You could teach it as a Taoist-style of TaiChi without religion or you could teach it as TaiChi with religious significance.

 

If it is taught without the religion, is something lost?

 

It was understood Tai Ji is a Taoist style, there is no need to specify it is "Taoist Tai Ji". With or without "Taoist" in the title, it is just a plain style of Tai Ji Chuan. Any non -Taoist can practice the art. I do practice Tai Ji, but I follow the principles in the Tao Te Ching without being religious in the Taoist Religion. I do consider myself as Taoist because I follow the philosophy of Lao Tze. The way the Tao Te Ching was written is not religious. It is religious because people want to interpret it in such a way to create the Taoist religion.

Edited April 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[shanlung]

Horse can be brought to the water.

If the horse do not drink, I let the horse die of thirst as that horse is destined to die of thirst..

 

It might well be said Western boxing is Zen.

And the Tao is in the Taliban who ignite his suicide vest in a market place as nowhere the Tao will not be.

 

The more less one knows, the more he felt he is right.

 

Yes. pointless to argue on the Internet with a fool.

He drag you down to his level and beat you to death with his lifelong experiences as a bloody fool.

I will be chucking Silas into my ignore bin.

 

Taoistic Idiot

Edited April 19, 2013 by shanlung

[SmallFrameGrandUltimateFist]

HA HA HA HA

HO HO HO HO

HEE HEE HE HEE HEE

 

ROFLMAO!

 

The best way to teach a fool is to let the fool do it his own way.

Go on! Do it which ever way you want to!

 

Not one of the Masters I had the fortune to be under in taijichuan ever told me taijichuan is Taoism.

 

Almost all the tiny masters and charlatans I known waving arms and legs slowly pretending the chi runs here and runs there knowing nothing at all of taijichuan talked of taiji and Taoism. Weaving rubbish with their fantasies with their students panting for more and more!

 

HA HA HA

HEE HEE HEE

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

If the fool does not laugh at it, it could not be called Tao

[shanlung]

If the fool does not laugh at it, it could not be called Tao

 

Nice thread to round up those that belong into my ignore bin.

My view of things will get a lot more pleasant.

[xor]

However, one may exclude Tai Ji Chuan from Taoism; but a Taoist may not be excluded from the practice of Tai Ji Chuan.

Can Li Er or other taoists before Zhang San Feng be excluded from the practice of taijiquan? If they can, why not taoists who come after taijiquan was given form?