Worst translations of TTC?

[Flolfolil]

i am interested in any "bad" translations, meaning ones you feel corrupted the message in some way. Not ones that are just poor translation, but were influenced by someones self interest.

 

Anyone got any particular ones they can't stand? lol

[xor]

Stephen Mitchell's is the worst I've heard of. From the top review on amazon we find this quote from his "TTC":

 

"When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities."

[manitou]

I actually really get a kick out of Stephen Mitchells translation. I find him down to earth and adaptable to this day and age. His footnotes in the back are awfully good, some of them.

[Kajenx]

Haha, I have Stephen Mitchell's pocket TTC. It was the first one I ever read and still my favorite. If you want a literal translation, though, it isn't that.

[Marblehead]

How about this one:

 

http://dudeism.com/thedudedeching/

[林愛偉]

How about this one:

 

http://dudeism.com/thedudedeching/

 

 

hahahaha dudeism.. classic!

[ion]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find this misleading:

 

"When a country is in harmony with the Tao,

the factories make trucks and tractors.

When a country goes counter to the Tao,

warheads are stockpiled outside the cities."

 

 

 

 

Disheartening that a person gains notarity and a livving churning out blasphemes. If I had first read this translation instead of the traditional translations out there, I might have become a christian.Someone thought they could rehash TTC by sitching things around using modern termonology but they were wrong. The items arent the same and so it sends a different message.

 

The above quote is just dualistic nonsense. If factories and trucks and tractors were in accordance with the tao then this would not be true:

 

"Great accomplishment seems imperfect,

Yet it does not outlive its usefulness.

Great fullness seems empty,

Yet it cannot be exhausted.

 

Great straightness seems twisted.

Great intelligence seems stupid.

Great elequence seems awkward.

 

Movement overcomes cold.

Stillness overcomes heat.

Stillness and tranquility set things in order in the universe."

 

The fact that we have and depend on factories, trucks and tractors is because we, our cunsumer society does not live in accordance with tao. When we percieve that things are lacking and need improving, when we cant see perfection we need trucks, tractor,s and factories to change and impose a concieved point of view onto reality.

 

 

When the Tao is present in the universe,

The horses haul manure.

When the Tao is absent from the universe,

War horses are bred outside the city.

 

There is no greater sin than desire,

No greater curse than discontent,

No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself.

Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.

 

 

 

 

Tractors trucks and factories mean properity to the guy who forgot to read the bottom paragraph. It is discontent that drives industry.

 

To me the accurate translation uses physical imagery to describe a mindscape. I honestly believe that the chapter is not about duality but the references to horses, pasture and manure, and what manure is meant to imply, (healthy crops/abundance) are an analogy for a persons temperment and thinking faculty. What a persons mental/inner focus is creates the theme of mind.

 

When a parson is at piece/content with little, the mind is elevated and capable of deeper thoughts and thinking. When a person is discontent, the thinking faculty of that person is refocussed and acts against humanity in one way or another.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ion

[rene]

i am interested in any "bad" translations, meaning ones you feel corrupted the message in some way. Not ones that are just poor translation, but were influenced by someones self interest.

 

Anyone got any particular ones they can't stand? lol

 

Flolfolil, hi, for me, the 'influence' you speak of is easy to spot in how Ch 1 is handled...

 

Here's a link you might find interesting;

 

175+ translations of Ch 1. Enjoy!

 

http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/tao-te-ching.htm

 

warm regards

[Hilarious Username!]

Man that Stephen Mitchell guy sounds awful! It's like he's translating FOR Christians, losing the spiritual philosophy of the Tao completely

[Esteam'd Punk]

Man that Stephen Mitchell guy sounds awful! It's like he's translating FOR Christians, losing the spiritual philosophy of the Tao completely

Never heard of that guy. Google time!

[Esteam'd Punk]

Oh, and I've never read an actual Tao te Ching. Teacher does it for me. I've seen Ebooks, but I don't know if those are reliable...

[Basher]

Tao Ker-Ching (The TAO of the Cash Register)

[Esteam'd Punk]

Tao Ker-Ching (The TAO of the Cash Register)

The sound of gods.

[Marblehead]

The sound of gods.

Hehehe. Yeah, I'm sure they have many gods running all around the text. Especially The Almighty Dollar.

[dust]

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27742#.VS-qCJOS_T8

 

The loving do not act.
The kind act without self-interest;
The just act to serve self-interest;
The religious act to reproduce self-interest.
For when Tao is lost, there is love;
When love is lost, there is kindness;
When kindness is lost, there is justice;
And when justice is lost, there is religion.
Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So religion enthralls generation after generation.
Religion is the end of love and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Faith is a colourful hope or fear,
The origin of folly.
The sage goes by knowledge, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts the former, and rejects the latter.

 

Saw part of this quoted on a t-shirt and had to know if a full translation existed. It does. Not sure where it originated.

 

[Marblehead]

Saw part of this quoted on a t-shirt and had to know if a full translation existed. It does. Not sure where it originated.

 

That sounds like it was written up by some hard core Atheist.

[Stosh]

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27742#.VS-qCJOS_T8

 

 

Saw part of this quoted on a t-shirt and had to know if a full translation existed. It does. Not sure where it originated.

 

geekfarm.org, Merel , ch 38 ?

[dust]

Ah. Yeah... says it all, really

 

based upon the translations of: Lin Yutang, Ch'u Ta-Kao, Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, Richard Wilhelm and Aleister Crowley

 

Agh.

[Stosh]

So who in your opinion, of the readily available english translations does best at sticking to the language of the originals? Im not talking about their sentiments mind you, just the wording as it seems to read.  

[dust]

To be honest, I've spent much more time reading the Chinese, and referring on-and-off to various translations for help, than vigorously reading many particular translations from beginning to end...so I can't really say...

 

I think John Wu's is the only one I've read from beginning to end. It's the only one I own a hard copy of.

 

dawei or TT are probably better qualified to answer..

 

so... guys...?

[dawei]

A good way to test this is start with a tricky passage... like we're discussing, the last lines of CH. 28:

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

 

This guy is one of my all time favorites and is very good with staying concise and close to the word meaning. He also translates lots of chinese poetry and so is used to brevity:

 

David Hinton

But when a sage is employed
he becomes a true minister,
for the great governing blade carves nothing.

 

 

I bought this translation in a Beijing bookstore and have gone back to his rendition many times... but I don't like this ending:

 

Gu Zhengkun

When simplicity gets shattered and becomes materialized,
The sage makes use of it to be the lord over other officials.
One should know
The greatest system is not separable.

 

One of my favorites is Chan... but he butchers this up... his book notes are exceptional:

 

Wing-Tsit Chan

When the uncarved wood is broken up, it is turned into concrete things.

But when the sage uses it, he becomes the leading official.

Therefore the great ruler does not cut up.

 

I've always like this guy but this is only ok:

 

Chu Ta-Kao

Wholeness, when divided, will make vessels of utility;

These when employed by the Sage will become officials and chiefs.

However, for a great function no discrimination is needed.

 

These two are spiritual masters so I like to read them.... the first is an elucidation and the second a transmission... so not following the words but the meaning:

 

Hua Ching-Ni

When the uncarved block is shaped into various single tools and vessels,
its original qualities are destroyed.
This is called "the great Oneness that cannot be divided."

 

Flowing Hands

For when the block is carved, it becomes useful for men

to manipulate and use.

When the Sage returns to this state,

he becomes the ruler of the Ten Thousand Things.

For he leaves everything to rise and fall without interference.

[dust]

This isn't exactly on-topic, but I don't want to SHOUT AT PEOPLE ON FACEBOOK who are never going to know any better so thought I'd vent my annoyance here

 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/564990715730724773/

 

A FB friend shared this today. Again: not, as far as I can tell, attributable to Laozi. Also, a load of trite nonsense..!

 

I know that it shouldn't matter, but (like many people here) I greatly admire the text, and each time I see something like this...

[Marblehead]

I understand your frustration.  True that Lao tzu likely never said that.  But, IMO, it is a valid Taoist thought.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Marblehead

[Taoist Texts]

my vote goes to Ursula

 

Ursula: When you gender the philosopher and when you talk only about Kings and Sages – though technically that word is non-gender – I do believe that most readers immediately see an ancient person with a beard. A bit like God. And sine I had taken this book to my heart as a teenage girl, it obviously is a book that speaks to women. Lao Tzu feminized mysteries in a different way from anybody else. These are not “feminine mysteries,” but he makes mystery itself a woman. This is profound, this goes deep. And the most mystical passages in the book are the most feminine. This is something women need, I think, and long for, often without knowing it. That’s undoubtedly one reason why all my life I’ve found the Tao de Ching so refreshing and empowering.

Brenda: Several times when reading your rendition I felt so moved by the feminine beauty of your Tao. For example, you interpret Number 61 “Lying Low” as “The polity of greatness/runs downhill like a river to the sea, joining with everything/woman to everything.” This is such a startling definition of greatness. And your vision of Lao Tzu’s ideas of power defies the traditionally masculine definition which is usually about status, conquest, or hierarchy. But your interpretation is “Power is goodness…Power is trust.”

Ursula: You know, the words really come out that way. That’s one of the less obscure passages. It’s almost shocking. Sometimes, of course, Lao Tzu really is talking about a person in power, a ruler, and I play that down because I didn’t figure a whole lot of rulers would be reading it. On the other hand, people in positions of responsibility, such as mothers, might be. And if you want to read the manual for rulers, there is the magnificent Arthur Waley translation that is never going to be equaled for what it does.

Brenda: Yes, a real classic. Give that one to Hillary Clinton, the rest of us will read yours. Another thing that came through very strongly in this rendition, was the humor, your humor, Lao Tzu’s humor, a philosophy of nature and humor. I laughed out loud when I read your note on Number 53 “Insight”: “people wearing ornaments and fancy clothes,/carrying weapons,/drinking a lot and eating a lot,/having a lot of things, a lot of money: shameless thieves.” And your comment was “So much for capitalism.”

Ursula: You know, in general, Lao Tzu seems to be pretty cagey, and a line can mean five or six different things, and then he just comes straight-out and says something, bang! Like that. It took me a bit by surprise.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I have always felt that the TTC was rooted in the feminine (Yin).