Home Taoist Altar

[JustBHappy]

Rene -- please re-read my previous post, I was quite clear in making the distinction:

 

"Unless your into religious Taoism then it's not really too useful"

 

anyway....

I highly doubt that any westerners really have much of an understanding of religious Taoism. So lets assume for a second that you guys do, in that case you would have no need to ask a bunch of English speaking westerners on the internet how to make an altar in the first place, you would already know.

 

 

Sree ---

"empirical and experienced at the physical"

What you believe to be empirical and experienced at the physical level is, and can only be known by you, through your perceptions.

[rene]

Rene -- please re-read my previous post, I was quite clear in making the distinction:

 

"Unless your into religious Taoism then it's not really too useful"

JBH, apologies!

 

I incorrectly assumed, after reading your post, that you were aware of the unboundaried nature of tao. From my perspective, the internal is expressed through the external just as the external is expressed through the internal, and that an 'altar' (regardless of location) might be of both benefit and harm. Benefit in that it can serve as a reminder of the unboundaried nature of tao, and harm in the reinforcing of the idea there is something 'separate' that requires maintaining a connection to! Just to be clear, imo the benefit described above is not needed after that fish is caught. So does that leave only harm? Depends on the direction one wishes to go. Towards -isms , altars can be of great benefit. (-:

 

warm regards

[Guest Jason Croft]

Hi,

I think that finally we are beginning to find some real Taoists in Tao Bums.

I'm in China where almost everyone I know is either Taoist or Buddhist. Taoists are more concerned with their family. Buddhism is simply a philosophy of taking responsibility for your actions/family etc...

The alter is simply a place where you go to pray/talk to the ones you have lost to the natural causes of living life.

It can be many, many centuries or even very recent since their passing.

 

Here is a webpage for the Ching Ming Festival, which is a national Taoist holiday in China that will give you the timings: http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/hong-kong/ching-ming-festival

Holidays in China follow celestial events like sun, stars and moon proximity to the earth (Spring, Winter, Fall and Summer.)

Women can time the beginning and end of their monthly menstruation cycle with this knowledge

Here is my wife's family name, in Chinese, which shows her ancestry going back over 2,000 years to Wong Di, the Chinese Emperor that 黄 stopped the wars between the states in China, that was destroying China, with the philosophy "Tin Hau" or peace under one roof. Since that time, China has not attacked any other nation with warring intentions.

Here's a webpage for the Taoist religious center in Hong Kong as well as the location of the Taoist Cannon or Library of family records: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Tai_Sin_Temple

We can continue this subject within the Tao Bums website if you like.

[newTaoist]

I'm loving this conversation. Learning a lot. Thanks for all of the participation.

[rene]

Ritual celebration in worship affirms the material substantiality of life. If you realize you have never lost it, then the more reason to celebrate.

 

Let's set up that altar. How about it?

 

sree, hi

 

If one needs ( or even just enjoys! ) ritual and an altar to celebrate, what could be wrong with that? From a blended perspective, there is nothing that diminishes or isolates life, or the physical from the spiritual. My celebration is in every breath, every blink; your celebrations might be found at an altar or during specific times or events!

 

I like that we each have our own ways. (-:

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

Making up nonsense is a personal privilege. Thus,your reality of the Daoist religion is different from Chidragon's. So, why marginalize him for exercising his perogative?

 

sree, calling some peoples beliefs "nonsense" doesn't seem quite right to me. I understand your position, but there is no reason for this.

 

I believe that was only a figure of speech on sree's part. I am sure that he was not being sarcastic. Rather, he was stood up for me by taken a natural position and being just.

 

BTW For being in a state of serenity, It didn't bother me a bit. I do appreciate both for your concern and kindness......

Edited April 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

I'm loving this conversation. Learning a lot. Thanks for all of the participation.

 

Is your Home Taoist Altar a way of expressing Te / De / 德 in practice?

[silas]

Classical Taoism is philosophical Taoism taken to the level of religion. It is also called Lao-Chuang Taoism after its 2 main teachers: Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Classical Taoism believes in all the gods, including the Christian God and the Greek/Roman gods, because they are all born in the Great Yin/Great Yang matrix of creation, but do not worship them - unless you want to worship them.

 

I do sometimes use a meditation altar for subliminal meditation. It's just a small table that can hold an incense burner and a media player and sound conditioner (white noise generator). Subliminal meditation requires some technical stuff to set up.

 

[newTaoist]

Is your Home Taoist Altar a way of expressing Te / De / 德 in practice?

lienshan, if I do put up an altar it will be a way of expressing my Daoist practice..

Edited April 21, 2013 by newTaoist

[sree]

lienshan, if I do put up an altar it will be a way of expressing my Daoist practice..

 

That's the spirit! (figuratively-speaking)

 

A Taoist altar is any structure before which a rite, which is Taoist in nature to you, can be enacted.

[sree]

Classical Taoism is philosophical Taoism taken to the level of religion. It is also called Lao-Chuang Taoism after its 2 main teachers: Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Classical Taoism believes in all the gods, including the Christian God and the Greek/Roman gods, because they are all born in the Great Yin/Great Yang matrix of creation, but do not worship them - unless you want to worship them.

 

I googled but found not a thing that supports what you said about "Classical Taoism". I am a philosophical Daoist who intend to take philosophical Daoism to the level of religion without the gods. So, you are cramping my style. I am sure we can work this out if you point me to material that backs up what you said about "Classical Taoism".

Edited April 21, 2013 by sree

[ChiDragon]

Traditional ways of setting up a Taoist Altar

神台的颜色，
The colors of the altar table,

一般以红色的为主，黄色也可。
1. Normally in red, but yellow is OK.

二、神台宜静不宜动。
2. The altar table should be in a quiet environment rather than a busy one.

三、神台忌犯门冲武财神除外。
3. TBD(to be determined).

神台附近不宜放置有异味的物品和食物。
Do not place any objects or food with odors around the altar table.

神台不宜于放在厨房 内，
Do not palce the altar table in the kitchen.

不宜在有神台的房间杀生和放有异味的物品和食物，
Do not slaughter or place objects or foods with odors inside the room where the altar table was located.

特别是荤腥的食物更要注意。
Especially, pay close attention to the non-veggie foods.

不可在神台的上下和旁边放置鱼缸，
Do not place any gold fish bowl on top, bottom or beside the altar table.

因为神台经常有香火且属于阳，水属于 阴，水火相克相冲。
一般神仙的神台都是坐北朝南，佛、菩萨的神台坐西朝东。
A Taoist altar table, always, should have the front facing South, while the back is facing North.
A Buddhist altar table, always, have the front facing East while the back is facing West.

但神台不可以放在窗户的位置，原理同对门的原理。
Do not place the altar table where the window is, and for the same reason not to have the altar table facing the door.

These are the basic rules to protect and respect the altar to begin with.

Edited April 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[silas]

I googled but found not a thing that supports what you said about "Classical Taoism". I am a philosophical Daoist who intend to take philosophical Daoism to the level of religion without the gods. So, you are cramping my style. I am sure we can work this out if you point me to material that backs up what you said about "Classical Taoism".

 

"Cramping my style"? Why the antagonism? This is religion.

 

TaoCurrents.org

 

Taoist Creation Theory

 

Also, look into the Taoism of Wang Bi, a chinese metaphysicist who lived around the time of the 1st millenium.

Edited April 21, 2013 by silas

[sree]

sree, hi

 

If one needs ( or even just enjoys! ) ritual and an altar to celebrate, what could be wrong with that? From a blended perspective, there is nothing that diminishes or isolates life, or the physical from the spiritual. My celebration is in every breath, every blink; your celebrations might be found at an altar or during specific times or events!

 

I like that we each have our own ways. (-:

 

warm regards

 

Since you find nothing wrong with that and I just love your Taoist philosophy which matches mine, why won't you join in worship with me at our very own Taoist altar? You can help me fashion one and think of some rites that could kick our philosophy up a notch to the religious level. Fact is, you are already doing it just as many of us philosophical Daoists here in America are doing it in our respective informal ways.

 

Ours doesn't have to be an "ism". Just because traditional religions are not set up right in our eyes doesn't mean religion cannot be set up right at all.

[rene]

Classical Taoism is philosophical Taoism taken to the level of religion. It is also called Lao-Chuang Taoism after its 2 main teachers: Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu....

 

Lao-Zhuang taoism is something other than (what is generally referred to as) Classical. This link may be of interest -

 

http://www.daoiststudies.org/content/short-history-daoism-introduction

 

from the link:

 

 

A History of Daoism in a Nutshell

The history of Daoism can conveniently be divided into four periods: Proto-Daoism (aka "Philosophical Taoism" in an older (mis-)understanding), Classical Daoism, Modern Daoism and Contemporary Daoism. Although these labels suggest a gradual historical development, it does not follow from this that Daoism has been steadily developing in a linear fashion towards some ideal state...

 

The first period, Proto-Daoism, covers the time from antiquity up to the 2nd century C.E. The reason why this period is called "proto-Daoism" is that we have no knowledge of any formal Daoist religious organizations at this time. The classic works that were written during this period, the Daode jing, the Zhuangzi in particular, were highly influential upon the flourishing of the classical Daoist tradition. Many textbooks on world religions still take this period as representing the essence of Daoism. This is simply an obtuse and misleading interpretation of the whole history of Daoism....

 

The second period, that of classical Daoist religion, starts in 142 C.E. when Zhang Daoling established the Way of the Celestial Masters, also known as the Way of Orthodox Unity, the first successful organized Daoist religious system. Daoist priests today claim to be ordained in a lineage that stretches back to this original founder. Two other important movements developed later during this period of classical Daoist religion: the Way of Highest Clarity (Shangqing Daoism) and the Way of Numinous Treasure (Lingbao Daoism). This period, between the 2nd and the 7th centuries can be called the classical period because scholars of Daoism look back to this time (known also as the medieval period of Chinese history) as the era in which many Daoist practices, texts and rituals initially took shape. ...

 

 

Another thread would probably serve better if someone wants to explore this further.

 

warm regards

[sree]

"Cramping my style"? Why the antagonism? This is religion.

 

Whoa, there is no antagonism here. You staked a claim right on the turf I wish to occupy, that's all. If your claim is legit, then I need to move on. Of course, I would be disappointed but I would have to deal with it like any reasonable mature adult. So, let's examine your claim that "classical Taoism" is philosophical Daoism taken to a religious level and include gods.

 

TaoCurrents.org

 

Taoist Creation Theory

 

Also, look into the Taoism of Wang Bi, a chinese metaphysicist who lived around the time of the 1st millenium.

 

Your links are to some guy's blog. I browsed through his postings and don't accept his views. I respect his right to express them but they do not provide legitimate basis for your claim that the religious form of philosophical Daoism include gods. You have the right to worship your way based on your form of Daoist philosophy.

 

Philosophical Daoism is generally known as Daoist philosophy derived from direct reading of widely-accepted western translations of the Tao Te Ching. Private blogs do not qualify as authoritative source of philosophical Daoism. Also, your term "classical Taoism" is misleading and have no connection to the classical Chinese texts.

 

Please do discuss this further if you don't agree with my conclusions.

[silas]

Whoa, there is no antagonism here. You staked a claim right on the turf I wish to occupy, that's all. If your claim is legit, then I need to move on. Of course, I would be disappointed but I would have to deal with it like any reasonable mature adult. So, let's examine your claim that "classical Taoism" is philosophical Daoism taken to a religious level and include gods.

 

 

Your links are to some guy's blog. I browsed through his postings and don't accept his views. I respect his right to express them but they do not provide legitimate basis for your claim that the religious form of philosophical Daoism include gods. You have the right to worship your way based on your form of Daoist philosophy.

 

Philosophical Daoism is generally known as Daoist philosophy derived from direct reading of widely-accepted western translations of the Tao Te Ching. Private blogs do not qualify as authoritative source of philosophical Daoism. Also, your term "classical Taoism" is misleading and have no connection to the classical Chinese texts.

 

Please do discuss this further if you don't agree with my conclusions.

 

Did you look up Wang Bi? His Taoism is philosophical Taoism with mysticism. Do NOT ignore his contribution. He is often called a neo-Taoist but his interpretation is within the classical texts, with an option to worship. Also in his line is Chinese philosopher He Yan. Look them up, please.

 

I have come to believe that religious sect Taoists (eg, Quanzhen) want to monopolize religious Taoism by creating lineages. Surely, they cannot ignore the lineage of LaoTzu-ChuangTzu.

 

In any case, there are hundreds of versions of Taoism. Where in the books of philosophical Taoism (TaoTeChing, ChuangTzu and LiehTzu) does it say you cannot worship the gods if you want to?

Tao precedes the gods, but the TaoTeChing says how the gods are born and how they use the power of the yin/yang matrix of creation.

 

Read that article Tao Precedes The Gods. It references an American philosopher Paul Carus, who talks about how Tao precedes the Christian God. You can be a Taoist and worship the Christian god if you like. The issue is whether Christianity allows you to follow your inborn nature and reach your destiny.

 

You are antagonistic, like so many religious Taoists I've encountered who seem to have a chip on their shoulders. That's a fact in your posting.

Edited April 22, 2013 by silas

[rene]

sree, hi

 

Philosophical Daoism is generally known as Daoist philosophy derived from direct reading of widely-accepted western translations of the Tao Te Ching. ... Also, your term "classical Taoism" is misleading and have no connection to the classical Chinese texts.

 

Actually...that's not quite the case, either. Again, maybe another thread for this exploration would allow this one to get back to newTaoists original request for information?

 

Regarding your invitation to help you create an altar - most appreciated, thank you, and I respectfully decline. For me, an 'altar' would be superfluous. (-:

 

warm regards

 

 

 

(edit for clarity)

Edited April 22, 2013 by rene

[sree]

Rene -- please re-read my previous post, I was quite clear in making the distinction:

 

"Unless your into religious Taoism then it's not really too useful"

 

anyway....

 

I highly doubt that any westerners really have much of an understanding of religious Taoism.

 

If by religious Taoism you mean Chinese religious Taoism, your doubt has validity. But don't forget, not all religions are Chinese. And not all forms of Taoism are derived in China. As such, the western understanding of religious Taoism cannot be dismissed. You are welcome to debunk my rationale for getting religious as a philosophical Daoist of the west.

 

So lets assume for a second that you guys do, in that case you would have no need to ask a bunch of English speaking westerners on the internet how to make an altar in the first place, you would already know.

 

Not really. No one has built a Taoist altar for Philosophical Daoism in the west. Can you imagine a Taoist altar that works for me and Rene and Tom Ford?

 

Sree ---

 

"empirical and experienced at the physical"

 

What you believe to be empirical and experienced at the physical level is, and can only be known by you, through your perceptions.

 

What you say is true only if I am on LSD. I don't do drugs. Therefore, my empirical experience of Taoist worship will be physically and authentically objective.

[sree]

Your three things make a good Tao altar... but not a Taoist altar. The difference between following tao and following taoism (religious or philosophical) seems to be lost in this thread.

 

What is the difference between following a tailess dog (tao) and following a doggy with a tail (taoism)? It's still dog-tracking, isn't it?

 

Sorry for doing a Chuang Tzu on you but your insistence on formlessness is also a formula.

[sree]

Actually...that's not quite the case, either. Again, maybe another thread for this exploration would allow this one to get back to newTaoists original request for information?

 

I don't think there is anything to explore. There is only Philosophical Daoism of the west. The Chinese are a practical people. They have no time for contemplation on the Tao. Their Taoism is mainly religious for the asking of help from gods.

 

Regarding your invitation to help you create an altar - most appreciated, thank you, and I respectfully decline. For me, an 'altar' would be superfluous. (-:

 

Is there anything in life that is not superfluous?

[rene]

What is the difference between following a tailess dog (tao) and following a doggy with a tail (taoism)? It's still dog-tracking, isn't it?

 

Sorry for doing a Chuang Tzu on you but your insistence on formlessness is also a formula.

 

LOL I'll see your ZZ and raise you an LZ

 

Who said anything about formlessness only?

 

From my earlier post to you (#105):

 

From a blended perspective, there is nothing that diminishes or isolates life, or the physical from the spiritual.

 

Regarding what you quoted, you either missed or didn't understand or chose to ignore my response to JBH (post #102) so here it is again:

 

I incorrectly assumed, after reading your post, that you were aware of the unboundaried nature of tao. From my perspective, the internal is expressed through the external just as the external is expressed through the internal, and that an 'altar' (regardless of location) might be of both benefit and harm. Benefit in that it can serve as a reminder of the unboundaried nature of tao, and harm in the reinforcing of the idea there is something 'separate' that requires maintaining a connection to! Just to be clear, imo the benefit described above is not needed after that fish is caught. So does that leave only harm? Depends on the direction one wishes to go. Towards -isms , altars can be of great benefit. (-:

 

- in other words, there is nothing separate to follow.

 

sree, do you see Tao as something separate to follow, or set an altar to, or to worship? It seems like you do so maybe I can help you with that. Time for a new thread. Let's build sree an altar. (-:

 

warm regards

[sree]

Did you look up Wang Bi? His Taoism is philosophical Taoism with mysticism. Do NOT ignore his contribution. He is often called a neo-Taoist but his interpretation is within the classical texts, with an option to worship. Also in his line is Chinese philosopher He Yan. Look them up, please.

 

I am quite conversant with Wang Bi's interpretation of the Chinese texts.

 

I have come to believe that religious sect Taoists (eg, Quanzhen) want to monopolize religious Taoism by creating lineages. Surely, they cannot ignore the lineage of LaoTzu-ChuangTzu.

 

The authors of the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi have no significance in the study of the Chinese texts. The message is important, not the messenger.

 

In any case, there are hundreds of versions of Taoism. Where in the books of philosophical Taoism (TaoTeChing, ChuangTzu and LiehTzu) does it say you cannot worship the gods if you want to?

 

Where in the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi does it say that you must worship gods?

 

Tao precedes the gods, but the TaoTeChing says how the gods are born and how they use the power of the yin/yang matrix of creation.

 

Which version of the Tao Te Ching are you referring to?

 

Read that article Tao Precedes The Gods. It references an American philosopher Paul Carus, who talks about how Tao precedes the Christian God. You can be a Taoist and worship the Christian god if you like. The issue is whether Christianity allows you to follow your inborn nature and reach your destiny.

 

The Tao Te Ching in its classical Chinese form is the only text I read seriously. Nothing else.

 

You are antagonistic, like so many religious Taoists I've encountered who seem to have a chip on their shoulders. That's a fact in your posting.

 

That is your perception, unfortunately. But I do hope you we could discuss cooperatively. If you insist on worshipping gods in your Taoist worship, that is fine by me. Rene is a philosophical Daoist who doesn't worship gods and does not even want an altar. I'm cool with that too.

[rene]

.... Rene is a philosophical Daoist who doesn't worship gods and does not even want an altar. I'm cool with that too.

 

sree, I am not Daoist, philosophical or otherwise.

 

btw, this will be my last post to you in this thread; I'd rather hear newTaoist's and other's ideas about traditional taoist altars. (-:

 

warm regards

[silas]

Lao-Zhuang taoism is something other than (what is generally referred to as) Classical. This link may be of interest -

 

Lao-Chuang Taoism is classical Taoism.