HELP: Upper Back Pain

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I understand that. However, in the TCM Kidney Meridian System, the kidney is the still the dominant organ which is effecting the whole subsystem.

Edited April 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

Yes, I understand that. However, in the TCM Kidney Meridian System, the kidney is the still the dominant organ which is effecting the whole subsystem.

 

Here is the reason I beleive this is more than just the result of an injury. Granted some of the upper back pain could be the result of a past injury. But what an injury does not explain is the resulting fatigue, and other symptoms he has after semen loss.

 

Furthermore even if his back pain were totally explainable from injury alone, treating the LV/GB qi stagnation equation would greatly help him to recover from that as well.

[ChiDragon]

dmattwads.....

I have a question for you. Have you ever compared the discrepancy in the functional descriptions of the internal organs between the TCM and the western science.......??? If you have, do you see any contradiction which might affect your thinking in the practice of TCM....???

Edited April 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

dmattwads.....

 

I have a question for you. Have you ever compared the discrepancy in the functional descriptions of the internal organs between the TCM and the western science.......??? If you have, do you see any contradiction which might affect your thinking in the practice of TCM....???

 

That depends on how you look at it. If you make a literal organ to organ comparison then there are a lot of discrepancies. But if you look at the TCM view of looking at each organ system as a system or function rather than only as a literal organ then things make more sense. I have a classmate who was previously in regular med school, and especially at the beginning of school this was a real struggle for him.

A good example is the spleen. In western medicine it is just considered a large organ of the lymphatic system that stores and processes red blood cells. You can even have it removed and still live a pretty normal life.

In TCM the Spleen is the extremely important as it with the Stomach is in charge of the transportation and transformation of food and drink. With out the Spleen in TCM you could not live.

 

Discrepancy? If taken literal yes. But if you view the "Spleen" in TCM as the overall function of your digestive system as a whole and you don't take it literally then there is not a discrepancy. I hope that makes sense.

[ChiDragon]

Thank you very much for your time and explanation. Sorry, I am picking your brain. I just curious how the TCM is understood in the west. I have one more question for you. Just by the description of the liver, alone, has a big contradiction with the western science. Without treating the liver in the meridian system, what is your understanding about the function of the liver from your TCM study.....???

[Maddie]

Thank you very much for your time and explanation. Sorry, I am picking your brain. I just curious how the TCM is understood in the west. I have one more question for you. Just by the description of the liver, alone, has a big contradiction with the western science. Without treating the liver in the meridian system, what is your understanding about the function of the liver from your TCM study.....???

 

Oh no need to apologize this helps keep me sharp on past classes so I'll be on top of it when licencing board exams come up ;-). You are correct in saying that probably the largest difference in organ function between western medicine and TCM is the Liver. In western medicine the Liver does so so many things, from being your bodies chemistry station, to storage of all sorts of vital things, to filtration and on and on.

 

In TCM the Liver also has several functions which are to store the blood, help maintain the smooth flow of qi throughout the body, and nourish the sinews.

As far as blood storage goes this is another contradiction with western medicine. Western medicine says that the spleen is the primary blood storage organ, while TCM says its the Liver. This partially explains PMS in women. If they do not have enough blood (called blood deficiency in TCM) when its time for their monthly cycle the uterus requires too much of the Liver's stored blood, thus leaving the Liver blood deficient. The Liver's emotion is anger, and blood is a yin type substance which is cooling and calming. With not enough Liver blood, the Liver heats up and then the person feels angry. Ok I digress lol.

Another important function is helping the smooth flow of qi throughout the body. Again this is why the condition of Liver qi stagnation produces stress and frustration. Stagnation causes friction which causes heat, and once again you have that Liver heating up and causing anger, pain is possible too.

Nourishing the sinews is also an important Liver function. The finger nails (toes too) are considered an excess of the tendons and their health is a reflection of the health of your Liver.

One other thing. The Liver houses your ethereal soul called the Hun. This has a lot to do with planning and decision making. According to Daoism the Hun is the only part of you that continues after death.

 

Anyways that' probably more than you wanted but as you can see the function of Liver in the west and TCM is quite different.

[ChiDragon]

............................... Again this is why the condition of Liver qi stagnation produces stress and frustration. Stagnation causes friction which causes heat, and once again you have that Liver heating up and causing anger, pain is possible too.

 

Anyways that' probably more than you wanted but as you can see the function of Liver in the west and TCM is quite different.

 

This not more than I want. I heard what you had said, already, all the time. It seems to me that we are living in a world with double standard. There is a thing about "qi stagnation". The latest official definition of "qi stagnation" in the modern Chinese literature is this:

One of the definitions of "Qi" is the function of an organ. "qi stagnation" was defined as the function of the organ is not functioning normally. Thus when the liver qi was at its state of stagnation, it was considered to be that the organ is malfunction. Have you ever heard of this definition in your TCM school.....???

 

 

Edited April 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[三江源]

I believe that Universal does not have a kidney problem. According to him, his pain was from an injury. Therefore, it is an isolated case.

Easy to get an injury as an effect from an inner issue. Its often how inner issues make their presence known.

 

"Isolated case" is quite impossible in the multi dimensional world. Think daoistically and you will lose the ability to imagine anything exists in isolation.

[Universal]

Are there any TCM remedies, or just general suggestions, to assist the healing of a muscle and/or tendon in the upper back? I think it might be the rhomboid muscle.

[三江源]

Yamuna ball.. to unravel the chronic tension.

[ChiDragon]

Are there any TCM remedies, or just general suggestions, to assist the healing of a muscle and/or tendon in the upper back? I think it might be the rhomboid muscle.

 

Muscle/tendon pains are involved with the nerves in the muscles. It is more physical then internal. The best way is to have acupuncture or acupressure treatments. Normally, there are some points of reflection away from the pain area. I think they are called the reflexo-points.

 

I have found this on the internet sometime ago:

Theory of Reflexology

Edited April 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

 

One of the definitions of "Qi" is the function of an organ. "qi stagnation" was defined as the function of the organ is not functioning normally. Thus when the liver qi was at its state of stagnation, it was considered to be that the organ is malfunction. Have you ever heard of this definition in your TCM school.....???

 

 

hm...but you also have to consider that correlation is not causation. you have a better understanding of the 5 elements than that

[Maddie]

Are there any TCM remedies, or just general suggestions, to assist the healing of a muscle and/or tendon in the upper back? I think it might be the rhomboid muscle.

 

The main reason I keep saying that it depends on your diagnosis is because in TCM you can have several different types of pain. Usually sharp stabbing pains are what is called blood stasis. If this is the case then this is a good formula for that. http://www.activeherb.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=AH087

 

But not all things are blood stasis. If its not blood stasis then those herbs might not do a whole lot. Also going to a TCM practitioner they can do acupuncture and cupping as ChiDragon said.

[blindeye]

If something slipped and some muscle has compensated for stabilty you might get water build up in the area where painful.

That would mean inflamation and maybe pain. Cordyceps worked for me.

[ChiDragon]

hm...but you also have to consider that correlation is not causation. you have a better understanding of the 5 elements than that

 

The 5 elements only tell you about the interrelationship between organs. What helps what and what oppose what. The state of stagnation is the malfunction of an organ which will not be giving aid or helping the next organ as its counterpart. It depends on the magnitude in the state of stagnation, the function of an organ may be partially or fully dysfunctional.

 

Liver qi deficiency simply means the lack of ability for the liver to perform its function.

Edited April 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

 

This not more than I want. I heard what you had said, already, all the time. It seems to me that we are living in a world with double standard. There is a thing about "qi stagnation". The latest official definition of "qi stagnation" in the modern Chinese literature is this:

One of the definitions of "Qi" is the function of an organ. "qi stagnation" was defined as the function of the organ is not functioning normally. Thus when the liver qi was at its state of stagnation, it was considered to be that the organ is malfunction. Have you ever heard of this definition in your TCM school.....???

 

 

 

Qi stagnation explained as the organ not functioning properly is a partial explination which I have been taught at my school. But it goes beyond just that. Stagnation along any point of the meridian can cause all sorts of other symptoms such as pain, heat, phlegm, ect.

[ChiDragon]

Qi stagnation explained as the organ not functioning properly is a partial explination which I have been taught at my school. But it goes beyond just that. Stagnation along any point of the meridian can cause all sorts of other symptoms such as pain, heat, phlegm, ect.

 

Yes, the original idea of qi stagnation was induced for the explanation of stagnation along any point of the meridian by the TCM practitioners. However, I would be taken the definition of the former more literally than the latter.

 

Is fair to say that the dysfunction of the organs can cause, along any point of the meridian, all sorts of other symptoms such as pain, heat, phlegm, ect....???

 

Based on your understanding, would you say that the meridians are located along the nerves of the nervous system....???

Edited April 25, 2013 by ChiDragon