The Tao of Dying

[sree]

You know how to live but do you know how to die?

 

Even though life is a mystery - at least, to those who are still searching - you live it without any doubt as to who you are, with regards to your place in society, and where you are, in terms of geography on this planet.

 

One thing for certain is that your body is going to die and your sojourn in this reality will end. So, how does this fact govern the way you live? Do you live it like a pilot who flies an aeroplane and knows how to land it when the flight is over? Or do you live like a passenger who has no idea how to deal with it?

[Samurai Mountain man]

Every day countless cells in our bodies wither away and die and then new cells take their place.

 

Im pretty sure my body knows how to die.

[sree]

I am not talking about your body. I am talking about you. Do you know how to die? Or are you flying this plane till it hits the side of the mountain, riding this barrel till it goes over the waterfall?

 

The point I am getting at, is there a way to live that is in tune with the body? Or are we disconnected with it and even in opposition to it? Even when you are long gone in a coma and the body is checking out, we still would put it on life support. Where is the Tao in all this?

 

Do you get what I am saying?

Edited April 20, 2013 by sree

[DragonsNectar69k]

There is no Tao. What you speak of is eternity and no one can tell you how to live it.

[sree]

What do you mean? I am talking about the Tao of dying. This means the Way of dying.

 

No body lasts for ever and each of us has to live in connection with the body. The body knows the Way because it is connected with Nature. Are you connected to the body? If you are, then you are one with the body and vanish as the body checks out and stops breathing forever.

 

This is how I see it. It is like riding. If you know how to ride well, then you are one with the horse. A good rider knows the Tao of riding. If you know how to live in oneness with the body, then you know the Tao of dying.

Edited April 20, 2013 by sree

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

When the wind blows, there is movement, when the wind dies, there is stillness. Be like the wind.

[sree]

How about be like the body? Why is everyone so disconnected with the body? I think the reason is because we are so caught up with being a psychological entity. The Buddha called this the illusory self.

[Samurai Mountain man]

How about be like the body?

 

That's pretty much what I said in my previous post.

 

All i am is this body and these thoughts, my body knows how to die and it'll die. My thoughts? my ego, my spirit, whoever I am besides my physical self? that'll also know how to return to whence it came when the time is right. we know how to die just as we know how to be born and how to live, there's a trillion different ways and they're all the same, little details aside.

 

I don't know if there's a heaven, reincarnation, an after life, a great void. I don't know and quite frankly I am at peace with not knowing and i am content with doing my own thing and not giving a damn. Don't know if anyone is able to understand that. Anyhow; Epicurus said it best:

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come,we are not.”

 

Ya dig?

[sree]

I don't dig, Samurai. And I am sure you don't either no matter what you say.

 

You are not the body even though you assert that you are. You, like me, are an ongoing reality show. The moment of truth comes when the body starts to check out. And you are going to know it in no uncertain terms that you are definitely not the body because it will be a weird experience. I have watched my dog die and I could see the strangest divide between what exist and what does not.

[Samurai Mountain man]

Maybe, maybe not. As far as I can tell, I've never died before so I don't know. Next time I die I'll try to remember what you said and see if you're right.

[sree]

I have never died before either but I am inquiring into the Tao of dying. The Tao Te Ching is supposed to be a book of wisdom that is littered with the sage (聖人) does this and the sage does that. So, what does the sage do when his body dies? Being a sage, he should know. And it is something he knows long before the onset of dying. Only the fool doesn't know anything until his pants are on fire.

 

Like you, I don't know either, Samurai. But unlike you, I realize I don't know and need to know before my pants are on fire.

Edited April 21, 2013 by sree

[thelerner]

Seems to me there's a certain wisdom in knowing..one doesn't know. You can have a great theory, something some one, maybe wise wrote down, maybe its true, maybe not. You really don't know. I think Samurai is being simple and truthful, without theory or supposition. Also many traditions are to be at peace with death, not figure how to cheat it or get around it but enter it mindfully, see where, if any place, it takes us. Our tools are meditation, a quiet mind and contemplation of nature, change and death.

 

Personally I often start meditation with a Vispasana practice of 'I am not my body (I am that which inhabits it), I am not my-thoughts, emotions, past, future, possessions etc.,

 

Are you aiming us at Tibetan Phowa practices? That may be the way.. or not. Without a real teacher and some dedicated decades of practice we won't know.

Edited April 21, 2013 by thelerner

[sree]

thelerner, I am not manipulating anything but just asking. I am aware that I am just inhabiting the body like a rider riding a horse. I am not inquiring into the afterlife, that part when the horse drops dead and I am thrown off my mount. I am talking about living in a way that is cognizant of dying. This way, I am always prepared and not living like a fool as though life is eternal. I can always get thrown when my horse buckles beneath me. When that happens, I will know how to land on my feet.

[Jetsun]

I think you are onto something important here, trying to become more cognizant of dying is an important aspect of many paths, from Orthodox Christianity to Buddhism. G. Gurdjieff said being constantly aware of your own death and of all those around you is all that is required for complete spiritual transformation and understanding to occur.

 

How to do it? from the Buddhist perspective you train yourself to observe the death of all things in your meditation, so you first see your thoughts pass away and your emotions, then your beliefs and concepts, then if you practice enough you start to see death and rebirth in everything all around you at all times in the outside world outside meditation.

So you start to see the Dharma in everything, which after a time might be enough for you to realize that you and your self are subject to this same impermanence so you begin to live cognizant of your own death. So it might just be a matter of doing enough practice that your life begins to reflect your practice.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Jetsun

[sree]

Thank you for your input. I want to examine it to see if it coincides with the Tao of dying.

 

I think you are onto something important here, trying to become more cognizant of dying is an important aspect of many paths, from Orthodox Christianity to Buddhism. G. Gurdjieff said being constantly aware of your own death and of all those around you is all that is required for complete spiritual transformation and understanding to occur.

 

Christianity sees corporeal life as temporal and is invested in the spiritual afterlife. Buddhism totally dismisses material reality as an illusion. As a Daoist, I accept my material existence and does not look beyond it. While Gurdjief is aware of death, I don't think it exists.

 

How to do it? from the Buddhist perspective you train yourself to observe the death of all things in your meditation, so you first see your thoughts pass away and your emotions, then your beliefs and concepts, then if you practice enough you start to see death and rebirth in everything all around you at all times in the outside world outside meditation.
So you start to see the Dharma in everything, which after a time might be enough for you to realize that you and your self are subject to this same impermanence so you begin to live cognizant of your own death. So it might just be a matter of doing enough practice that your life begins to reflect your practice.

 

The Buddhist way is one of denial of material reality which is quite amazing. To avoid the pain of attachment, the Buddhist keeps telling himself nothing is real. But reality is not a matter of choice. It just is regardless of one's denial. So, I have no choice but to reside in material reality as a person trapped withing a body that disintegrates with time. How does this person live, without denial, and die in concert with the body? What is the way? That's the question.

[Jetsun]

The Buddhist way is one of denial of material reality which is quite amazing. To avoid the pain of attachment, the Buddhist keeps telling himself nothing is real. But reality is not a matter of choice. It just is regardless of one's denial. So, I have no choice but to reside in material reality as a person trapped withing a body that disintegrates with time. How does this person live, without denial, and die in concert with the body? What is the way? That's the question.

 

My opinion is that if a Buddhist completely denies material reality then they have fallen into nihilism which is not the middle way, rather Buddhism teaches that everything in material reality disintegrates with time just like the body does, so everything is of the same nature as the body including our sense of self, the problem is that our minds get into the habit of viewing things as permanent when in reality they are not. When we view things as having permanence we try to hold onto them, when we really see that its nature is impermanent then we see that such attempts to cling are useless. So the only reason why we may not die in concert with the body is because our minds have got into the habit of delusion of viewing things as permanent, so one possible way to correct this is to retrain our minds to see all reality in the way it really is.

 

I know i'm talking about Buddhism a lot in the Taoism section but generally I don't think Taoists are particularly strong in this issue, as many of them were completely obsessed with immortality which in my opinion is misguided attempt at denying the reality of death, so it is just another way for people to deny the reality of what is rather than accept it.

[Birch]

Different ways again.

 

Jing-Qi-Shen goes both ways AFAIK. 'JIng-Qi-Shen' is not a Buddhist understanding. Someone please correct me if I'm off the mark on this?

[sree]

K, which post are you responding to? I don't see Jing-Qi-Shen mentioned anywhere in this thread.

[Birch]

The whole thread. It has to do with what I understand as major differences between Taoism and Buddhism in views around the process of formation of mindbodyspirit. Sorry to use that term but its as close an approximation as I can get to between a 'materialist to begin with' concept I'm quite well aquainted with having grown up with it and the other ones which are as far as I can see 'not materialist' to begin with.

 

Buddhist enlightenment is one direction only 'jing qi shen'. Taoist immortality is any which way they cultivate.

 

But like I said, correct me if I'm off the mark.

[sree]

My opinion is that if a Buddhist completely denies material reality then they have fallen into nihilism which is not the middle way, rather Buddhism teaches that everything in material reality disintegrates with time just like the body does, so everything is of the same nature as the body including our sense of self, the problem is that our minds get into the habit of viewing things as permanent when in reality they are not. When we view things as having permanence we try to hold onto them, when we really see that its nature is impermanent then we see that such attempts to cling are useless. So the only reason why we may not die in concert with the body is because our minds have got into the habit of delusion of viewing things as permanent, so one possible way to correct this is to retrain our minds to see all reality in the way it really is.

 

While it is true that nothing is permanent, everything persists long enough to serve practical needs. My home is expected to last a lifetime and if it doesn't, I have insurance coverage for its destruction by fire, earthquake and flood. My bank is expected to last a lifetime and if it should go bust, I have taken care to stash enough money in other banks. My money is expected to last a lifetime and should it lose its value completely in a global economic collapse, I have other assets to keep me going. The point is, the Buddhist impermanence has no material significance. We can deal with it. As for the body's impermanence, I am more troubled about living too long and suffering old age infirmities than dying too early.

 

I know i'm talking about Buddhism a lot in the Taoism section but generally I don't think Taoists are particularly strong in this issue, as many of them were completely obsessed with immortality which in my opinion is misguided attempt at denying the reality of death, so it is just another way for people to deny the reality of what is rather than accept it.

 

I don't accept the reality of death only because it cannot be experienced but I am concerned about my inability to grapple with dying. I am like a character on the movie screen talking to you, the operator of the movie projector. There is no material connection between me - in the movie - and you when you shut off the projector. How do I die?

[三江源]

.

Edited April 4, 2015 by 三江源

[Samurai Mountain man]

To die is to die, life's a rollercoaster and at some point it's gonna have to stop. You know, laws of thermodynamics, energy conservation, entropy... that sort of things.

[sree]

To die is to die, life's a rollercoaster and at some point it's gonna have to stop. You know, laws of thermodynamics, energy conservation, entropy... that sort of things.

 

I hate to say this but you lack power in meditative discourse. Cat is better at it.

 

Your talent is in the field of mechanical engineering. Thanks for your efforts in contributing to this thread.

[hydrogen]

My home is expected to last a lifetime and if it doesn't, I have insurance coverage for its destruction by fire, earthquake and flood. My bank is expected to last a lifetime and if it should go bust, I have taken care to stash enough money in other banks. My money is expected to last a lifetime and should it lose its value completely in a global economic collapse, I have other assets to keep me going.

 

How do I die?

 

First, you need to figure out what is "I"? If one doesn't even know who "I am", one doesn't even know who died.

 

I don't know who "I am", don't ask me.

[sree]

How does the body die?

 

No, that's not the question. I am not interested in biology.

 

Or are you asking about the death of your consciousness?

 

You are getting warm but I am not into neuroscience either.

 

The shutting down of the physical system so that consciousness is less and less able to be present to the physical system, is the process of dying.

 

We need to keep out all scientific concepts and inquire without the interference of any knowledge about life. So, how do I die? I saw my dog die. The vet said he had a tumor and won't last long and it was best to put him down. He still had an appetite and could run up and down the back steps. He liked his food and his walks. So I said, "Verdell, you are not going until the day you can't get up those steps". One morning, he walked down those steps for his morning walk and turned to look at me. I could see pain in his eyes. I knew it was time. At the vet, he lay on the examination table wrapped in his blanket to spend the final moments with me. Then, the vet came in and asked if I was ready. I nodded as I stroke my pet. The needle was inserted in his right front leg and removed. It won't take long, said the vet as she left the room. Verdell's large brown eyes were open as he lay there comforted by my hand. I kept looking at his eyes which never closed and he was gone.

 

Nobody shuts off the projector, just the screen starts to disintegrate.

 

Too much words, Cat. My dog just died. How does one die?