The Tao of Dying

[sree]

I was just thinking, for some, the tragedy is not that we die, but that we don't.

 

We do die, all of us. And we all die horribly because no one knows how to die. The Tao of dying is key to the art (Tao) of living. Longevity and immortality are delusions inconsistent with the cyclic nature of life.

 

Anyway, aside from my speculations and strange dreams and interests, the rest of the time I spend in attempts in various ways to enjoy my life. If a job is draining the life-force from me then it gets questioned, if not binned. As does the company I keep and the things I do.

 

What you are advocating here is to ignore the situation, avoid the problem and just focus on having a comfortable ride. But that ride must end sometime. You don't know how to get off. No one does. So, you accept that eventually everybody get thrown off unceremoniously. Where is the wisdom in this?

 

I know someone on Wall St, he told me the people there burn out quite regularly.

 

People get burned out one way or another. Given the choice, I would rather earn a good living as a race car driver than suffer the karma of a trucker.

Edited April 24, 2013 by sree

[sree]

Interesting. What does the stock market have to do with OBEs and how can you refute something you have probably never experienced yourself?

 

I am able to refute anything that is untrue and irrelevant. I earn a living trading the markets and anything to do with them is relevant to me. Out-of-body experiences, sutras and vedas, second deaths, eternity - all that are not relevant. I need to stay focussed on real things. Emptying my mind of irrelevant psychological clutter keeps me sharp like an eagle. Animals in the wild don't mess around. Their senses are keen and their reflexes sharp. They are true Daoists.

 

As for the afterlife, there is only eternity, tap into your subconscious mind if you will and you will see with the inner eye. This is something you must seek and i am no teacher to the unbeliever, that is your own problem, or should i say i will pray for the higher beings to wake you but you may not like what you see...

 

You are stuffed up with knowledge that has no relevance to living a sane life. Chapter 19 - abandon knowledge. Not all knowledge. Just the irrelevant crap.

[sree]

the only way to prepare for death is to prepare for life. it's not the other way around.

 

The sequential order is correct only because life is real and something you can deal with. Deal with life correctly and death will take care of itself.

 

So, what do you mean by preparing for life? Are you prepared based on the way you are living now? Let's suppose you and I are asking this question. We are two passengers riding in an airplane which is in perfect shape but over time will gradually disintegrate. As it loses structural integrity, it will come apart and we are all going to die. It is going to be a plane crash with no survivors. Other passengers don't care. Some are asleep, some are watching movies, some on their laptops, others are at the back of the plane chatting with drinks in their hands. So, how do you prepare if, like me, you are not a westerner into the eternal Tao or a Chinese Taoist bracing for entry into Jade Heaven?

[DragonsNectar69k]

 

I am able to refute anything that is untrue and irrelevant. I earn a living trading the markets and anything to do with them is relevant to me. Out-of-body experiences, sutras and vedas, second deaths, eternity - all that are not relevant. I need to stay focussed on real things. Emptying my mind of irrelevant psychological clutter keeps me sharp like an eagle. Animals in the wild don't mess around. Their senses are keen and their reflexes sharp. They are true Daoists.

 

 

You are stuffed up with knowledge that has no relevance to living a sane life. Chapter 19 - abandon knowledge. Not all knowledge. Just the irrelevant crap.

 

Hahaha! Sane huh!? You actually believe you can make a living trading in the markets! A phenomenon that makes no sense and is usually pure speculation.

 

Riddle me this you 'daoist', what is the force that moves the markets and who are the market makers...

 

Also you have assumed a lot on my part concerning knowledge and my own expierences as well. It seems money is more important to you than growing spiritually, which is why you seem concerned with death and which is probably why i am seeing this black orb fly around me. A possible demon?

 

You should probably throw away the Dao as well. Seems a bit dogmatic from your perspective. All the knowledge i have gained has been through keeping an open mind in this life, not following some doctrine so i can 'get to' heaven. Id like to know where in this Tao where the topic of sanity is discussed... If anything the Tao is not sane.

Edited April 24, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[XieJia]

when death comes, it comes; no need wanting it or not wanting it.

 

just do and pay attention to what is infront at the moment.

the relevancy or irrelevancy is what is now, it differs on circumstances.

[Birch]

We do die, all of us. And we all die horribly because no one knows how to die. The Tao of dying is key to the art (Tao) of living. Longevity and immortality are delusions inconsistent with the cyclic nature of life.

 

 

What you are advocating here is to ignore the situation, avoid the problem and just focus on having a comfortable ride. But that ride must end sometime. You don't know how to get off. No one does. So, you accept that eventually everybody get thrown off unceremoniously. Where is the wisdom in this?

 

 

People get burned out one way or another. Given the choice, I would rather earn a good living as a race car driver than suffer the karma of a trucker.

I should be clearer:-) Thank you for the opportunity. 'Me' this will die. I know this to be the case. I have no idea how I will handle it personally. When I refer to 'not dying' I'm not referring to myself. That doesn't sound very clear but I don't know how to explain it otherwise. Sorry.

 

Yes, I accept that I will die. I don't know what of nor how nor how I will handle it. I can't do anything to avoid it. Where's the problem?

 

I don't think we're suggesting anything different about enjoying life. You love to argue:-)

[sree]

Hahaha! Sane huh!? You actually believe you can make a living trading in the markets! A phenomenon that makes no sense and is usually pure speculation.

 

I have been earning a steady living doing this for the past ten years ever since I quit my job. It was a crazy move at that time but I felt compelled to do it to prove to myself that I was serious about my convictions about doing the right thing. I couldn't go on reading the Tao Te Ching and telling myself that it made sense but go on living in a way that contradicts the principles it expounded. My girlfriend at the time who was quite happy being a Daoist (like Rene or the other females forummers) thought I was going mad and getting spiritually radicalized. We shared a lovely apartment in the Upper West Side of New York City and were living a pretty fancy life.

 

Riddle me this you 'daoist', what is the force that moves the markets and who are the market makers...

 

What are you getting at? Are you an Occupier Wall Street conspiracy theorist who believes some big players are manipulating the small guys? I am not a day-trader darting in and out all day scalping pennies for a living. But I do track my investments sitting at my computer screens displaying live feeds from newswires, forex and securities trading platforms, and cable TV business channels. I wish I don't have to do this but I can't stop if I want to maintain my freedom which cost money.

 

There are no market-makers. Nobody knows what's going to move the markets. Haven't you learned from the last financial crisis how complex and unstable everything is? Like I said, there are no market makers. Everyone is up to his eyeballs in debt and nobody is telling. I am just a guy with a stash riding the Titanic that has struck the iceberg and water is filling its hold. My mission is to sense where that water is going in order to move my stash away from the lowest point of the ship and not end up like the rest of the world drowning.

[sree]

when death comes, it comes; no need wanting it or not wanting it.

 

just do and pay attention to what is infront at the moment.

the relevancy or irrelevancy is what is now, it differs on circumstances.

 

Ok, buddy. Enjoy your drink and your peanuts.

[Samurai Mountain man]

What is the Tao of Dying then? where'd you come up with that concept anyway? The Tao is the Tao and then there's some more Tao if you feel like you could use some more. What's the big deal about dying anyway? Death is the mistery and such is it's nature, thus only by dying can it be solved.

 

"Since life and death are each other's companions, why worry about them? All beings are one." -Zhuanzi

Edited April 24, 2013 by Samurai Mountain man

[sree]

I should be clearer:-) Thank you for the opportunity. 'Me' this will die. I know this to be the case. I have no idea how I will handle it personally. When I refer to 'not dying' I'm not referring to myself. That doesn't sound very clear but I don't know how to explain it otherwise. Sorry.

 

Yes, I accept that I will die. I don't know what of nor how nor how I will handle it. I can't do anything to avoid it. Where's the problem?

 

The problem is that it just doesn't make sense. You accept that you will die and you don't know what nor how you will handle it because you can't do anything to avoid it. That would be like standing as a dumb deer frozen in the headlights of an 18-wheeler semi bearing down on you and you are bracing for the blood and gore. Do you realize how crazy that would sound coming from a guy who wrote the Tao Te Ching?

 

Seriously, do you think Lao Tzu would know how to die? Or do you suspect this guy who wote this Dao book is as dumb as a deer like the rest of us?

 

I don't think we're suggesting anything different about enjoying life. You love to argue:-)

 

It's not arguing. I love to shake you up from the frozen state. Standing in front of trucks is just too silly a proposition for making an exit even if that can't be avoided.

[sree]

What is the Tao of Dying then?

This is the question I want to investigate.

where'd you come up with that concept anyway?

Right here. I came up with this question about the Tao of dying right here in this forum. It's not a concept. It's a challenge to confront this question about our mortality. You as as well as others won't deal with it. If this was a school exam question, you all failed.

The Tao is the Tao and then there's some more Tao if you feel like you could use some more. What's the big deal about dying anyway? Death is the mistery and such is it's nature, thus only by dying can it be solved.

Dying cluelessly doesn't solve anything. You get reborn to die again the same undignified way. I am not talking about Buddhist rebirth. I am talking about the human race, people dying every minute, every day for generations after generations the same clueless way just because everyone, like you, feel it is a pointless question and won't confront and deal with it.

"Since life and death are each other's companions, why worry about them? All beings are one." -Zhuanzi

Who was the fool who did this translation? I do wish foreigners never set eyes on the Chinese classics.

Edited April 24, 2013 by sree

[Birch]

No, what I'm trying to explain is that there is an aspect of me that will not die. But I will most certainly.

 

I don't understand what's dumb about what I'm saying.

[sree]

What aspect?

 

No aspect. That's cheating. Everything - that makes you - dies.

[Birch]

So you'd like me to split off the living part from the dead bits?

[thelerner]

Here I am standing around waiting for instruction or some explanation why I am in this world. I want to get on with it. Volunteer at a hospice? This whole world is a hospice. I was put in this hospice of a reality the day I was born. And no one wants to die because none knows how.

 

Do you get me sweetheart?

No, you're generalizing and trivializing. Unless you spend your time with people close to death or in the actual experience of dying you don't know what your talking about, seeing it through the fuzzy lense of abstract philosophy.

 

The whole world is not a hospice. If you spent time in one, volunteered there for a few hours a week, you'll see there a vast difference. We ignore death and take life, health, time, flowers, touch sight, the sun, the wind, chocolate and a thousand things for granted. In a hospice its different. Time, health, loved ones are no longer taken for granted, mental masturbations are often dropped.

 

You want you questions about life and death answered. Find a local hospice, roll up your sleeves, drop pretensions and go there to listen, learn and be. I guarantee you'll find your answers. <or your money back>

Edited April 24, 2013 by thelerner

[rene]

. I am just a guy with a stash riding the Titanic that has struck the iceberg and water is filling its hold. My mission is to sense where that water is going in order to move my stash away from the lowest point of the ship and not end up like the rest of the world drowning.

 

You dont want platitudes or theories about death - you want to know how to die..so you're not caught without a plan.

 

Why didn't you just say so? Here is the Tao of Dying - and how to practice for it:

 

1. Put on the tightest pair of shoes you own. Feel what that feels like.

2. Walk around in them for a while. Feel what that feels like.

3. Sit down and untie them. Feel what that feels like.

4. Slide them off. Feel what that feels like.

 

That is how you die and that is how you practice ahead of time so you're not caught off-guard. (-:

 

warm regards

[Samurai Mountain man]

Okay then Sree, perhaps you are right. Perhaps one should learn how do die. Perhaps there's a Tao of diying.

 

What is on your mind, where do we start?

[DragonsNectar69k]

Hrmmm. I don't remember who it was, nor do I really care, but I remember a tid bit about a eastern sage who once said he wish he could study the Tao Te Ching for 40 years and THEN live the rest of his life before he dies. To live life in such a way that not a moment was wasted before death...

 

From my perspective, I don't care about death. If one is practicing the dharma or adhering to some sense of virtue to SOME kind of regard such as a form of religion, the afterlife is not something one should worry about in my opinion. One's conscious will be open and willing to move on to whatever stage of life there is at that point, there will be no regret or indignation. Tis why I don't make a big fuss about money or material things. They mean nothing, I could 'die' tomorrow. Sometimes the best thing is to do nothing and 'listen' in silence. Furthermore, heaven or hell is not something I expect after dying. I expect to only know what it is I will experience in that moment and in my opinion that will be up to me as well.

 

I also must excuse myself spree, I can not move your mind for you. Many of the things I have chosen to study and experience may mean nothing concerning material sustenance, but I have learned a lot and enjoy discussing spirituality and the experiences there in and have realized there is more than meets the eye to who we are as individuals. Needless to say, you seem to enjoy making money and seem to have no reason to question life nor one's state of mind. In my opinion, you will simply be the same person you are today when you die if you chose to be. Tis simple.

[DragonsNectar69k]

I have been earning a steady living doing this for the past ten years ever since I quit my job. It was a crazy move at that time but I felt compelled to do it to prove to myself that I was serious about my convictions about doing the right thing. I couldn't go on reading the Tao Te Ching and telling myself that it made sense but go on living in a way that contradicts the principles it expounded. My girlfriend at the time who was quite happy being a Daoist (like Rene or the other females forummers) thought I was going mad and getting spiritually radicalized. We shared a lovely apartment in the Upper West Side of New York City and were living a pretty fancy life.

 

 

What are you getting at? Are you an Occupier Wall Street conspiracy theorist who believes some big players are manipulating the small guys? I am not a day-trader darting in and out all day scalping pennies for a living. But I do track my investments sitting at my computer screens displaying live feeds from newswires, forex and securities trading platforms, and cable TV business channels. I wish I don't have to do this but I can't stop if I want to maintain my freedom which cost money.

 

There are no market-makers. Nobody knows what's going to move the markets. Haven't you learned from the last financial crisis how complex and unstable everything is? Like I said, there are no market makers. Everyone is up to his eyeballs in debt and nobody is telling. I am just a guy with a stash riding the Titanic that has struck the iceberg and water is filling its hold. My mission is to sense where that water is going in order to move my stash away from the lowest point of the ship and not end up like the rest of the world drowning.

 

There were some individuals who did predict the crash before it began. They merely understood that many people were using way too much credit to afford things in such a risky manor concerning interest rates and knew that their own material possessions were not worth what the market was asking for, so they sold and ran like wolves waiting for the slaughter. Finances can be fun to study, but sitting down all day and speculating about what is going to happen would be a bit stressful for me, since I am an idealist at heart. Life is short. I'd rather hack the cell phones and emails of executives and then play ball in the stock market, but that would be 'cheating'. Plus through personal dreams and revelations, spending my time pursuing money would mean nothing in the larger scheme of things concerning eternity. I can't come back in another life and hold claim to that money, so to speak. It is said that practicing the dharma or prescribing to a certain school of thought or religion regarding virtue can help one realize their True self and True worth and begin pursuing the path to freedom from one's own inherited ego and self-limitations in this life. We shall see

[Samurai Mountain man]

You know, y'all making some seriously good points, all of you.

 

If there's a Tao of dying, then it's bound to be the same as the tao of living, two sides of the same coin, and the coin is the Tao. But the sides are an abstraction of the wholeness of the coin; so there are no sides after all.

[DragonsNectar69k]

You know, y'all making some seriously good points, all of you.

 

If there's a Tao of dying, then it's bound to be the same as the tao of living, two sides of the same coin, and the coin is the Tao. But the sides are an abstraction of the wholeness of the coin; so there are no sides after all.

 

Do you think we are living to die or dying to live? lolz.

[Samurai Mountain man]

Do you think we are living to die or dying to live? lolz.

Both are equally true, but some shift their weight one way or the other. Makes perfect sense. don't you agree?

[rene]

... But the sides are an abstraction of the wholeness of the coin; so there are no sides after all.

 

Or - maybe there are the two sides and the wholeness of the coin, simultaneously.

 

A blended perspective isn't moving past duality into unity only.

 

It's seeing the whole and the parts. Both, right here, right now.

 

But that's another topic and no need to interupt sree's dying. (-:

 

warm regards

[sree]

Finances can be fun to study, but sitting down all day and speculating about what is going to happen would be a bit stressful for me, since I am an idealist at heart. Life is short. I'd rather hack the cell phones and emails of executives and then play ball in the stock market, but that would be 'cheating'. Plus through personal dreams and revelations, spending my time pursuing money would mean nothing in the larger scheme of things concerning eternity.

 

I would like to space out and realize my true self too but my existence needs to be funded.

 

What do you do to fund yours assuming you are not living on public financing in a nursing home, medical facility or prison?

Edited April 24, 2013 by sree

[Samurai Mountain man]

Or - maybe there are the two sides and the wholeness of the coin, simultaneously.

 

A blended perspective isn't moving past duality into unity only.

 

It's seeing the whole and the parts. Both, right here, right now.

Yes, that too. So when one says "no sides, just wholeness" it's not an absolute statement, it's relative in spite of the inflexion still. Both parts are equally true!

 

Warm regards as well friend.