The Tao of Dying

[sree]

Or - maybe there are the two sides and the wholeness of the coin, simultaneously.

 

A blended perspective isn't moving past duality into unity only.

 

It's seeing the whole and the parts. Both, right here, right now.

 

But that's another topic and no need to interupt sree's dying. (-:

 

warm regards

 

You are not paying attention, rene. Instead of fooling around in class, you need to help us think this through. Samurai is trying.

[Stosh]

There's one of them thar synchronicities again !

"There is no trying, only doing "

[zanshin]

On 4/24/2013 at 10:16 AM, sree said:

We do die, all of us. And we all die horribly because no one knows how to die. The Tao of dying is key to the art (Tao) of living. Longevity and immortality are delusions inconsistent with the cyclic nature of life.

 

 

What you are advocating here is to ignore the situation, avoid the problem and just focus on having a comfortable ride. But that ride must end sometime. You don't know how to get off. No one does. So, you accept that eventually everybody get thrown off unceremoniously. Where is the wisdom in this?

 

 

People get burned out one way or another. Given the choice, I would rather earn a good living as a race car driver than suffer the karma of a trucker.

The 

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[rene]

You are not paying attention, rene. Instead of fooling around in class, you need to help us think this through. Samurai is trying.

 

I already answered your question in my post #66. If you dont like that answer, that's fine; if you don't understand or choose to ignore the post to keep your game going that's fine too! I know you have difficulty with my ideas, and that is natural as our perspectives are very different...so I apologize for disrupting your thread, bid you adieu, and wish you well on your path. (-:

 

warm regards

Edited April 24, 2013 by rene

[DragonsNectar69k]

I would like to space out and realize my true self too but my existence needs to be funded.

 

What do you do to fund yours assuming you are not living on public financing in a nursing home, medical facility or prison?

 

I work a 9 to 5 job, live within my means, and give no shits about the superficiality or stereotypes of life. Mind you, I also don't live in New York. Your only racing yourself by the way You may be better off getting into real estate to generate a stream of cash flow from renters than dealing with such a complex scheme like the stock market.. Every one needs a place to live at the end of the day. Just a thought.

 

As for 'zoning out', you should try it some time. haha. A part of me wants to question why a stock investor like you would even bother spending time on a forum full of 'bums'. Are you at odds with yourself or are you still trying to figure out life? It is quite simple, live simply.

Edited April 24, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[Samurai Mountain man]

You are not paying attention, rene. Instead of fooling around in class, you need to help us think this through. Samurai is trying.

 

 

Nah man he hit an interesting spot. I personaly welcome everyone's participation, even if they're joking or saying something absurd. To put aside someone's word is to put on blinders. Clarity can come from anywhere at any moment, that's why I never hold back on posting a joke reply on someone's thread even if it means they may dislike my lack of seriousness, I firmly believe truth streams through humour.

 

What he's saying can be applied to our little thread here. While I talked about how death and life are basically the same thing, he talked about there being a clear difference in spite of them being part of the same experience, which is the experience of being.

[zanshin]

You have some background in technical analysis and Elliott wave theory? You know how sometimes you look at a chart know what's going to happen without a lot of intellectual analysis? I think it's sort of like that, you can analyze and intellectualize, but eventually you understand things beyond that level.

[sree]

You have some background in technical analysis and Elliott wave theory? You know how sometimes you look at a chart know what's going to happen without a lot of intellectual analysis? I think it's sort of like that, you can analyze and intellectualize, but eventually you understand things beyond that level.

 

Picking entry or exit points and timing market shifts are exciting for making bets. I don't do this for three reasons. Firstly, I don't like gambling. Secondly, I don't take risks even if they can be hedged. Thirdly, high-frequency trading has taken over the market place and is the game-changer. Trading the markets using technical analysis these days is like making chess moves against IBM's Big Blue.

 

There is no way possible to understand things beyond the intellectual level. Don't cheat because you would be just fooling yourself. I never cheat because self-deception is deadly when making investment decisions, and they have real painful consequences. I apply the same discipline in studying the Tao Te Ching. Never cheat. This is why Taoist deities give me a wide berth and Tao Masters on this side of Taoist Hell cannot penetrate my defenses. Losing your mind is a lot more sad than losing money.

Edited April 25, 2013 by sree

[C T]

I would like to space out and realize my true self too but my existence needs to be funded.

 

What do you do to fund yours assuming you are not living on public financing in a nursing home, medical facility or prison?

Dont be silly. The realization of your 'true self' is not separate from your existential needs.

 

Spacing out wont bring anyone closer to self-realization. In most instances, it appears to prompt the opposite effect (only in the mind of the thinker. In actuality, nothing happens.)

 

Because there is no false self, there is no true self to realize. Its just a heroic mythic adventure tale which people follow so as to bellow the fires of ego and to add interest to an otherwise dulled existence. In short, distractions are powerful stuff. Even the preoccupation with learning how to die, however noble it sounds, can be classified as one.

Edited April 25, 2013 by C T

[sree]

Dont be silly. The realization of your 'true self' is not separate from your existential needs.

 

It depends on what you mean by "true self". Rajneesh,if he is alive, would agree with you. The Pope too. Also, it also depends on what your existential needs are. Can we discuss these things? Have you realized your "true self" and how do you get money, if this is necessary to meet existential needs.

 

Spacing out wont bring anyone closer to self-realization. In most instances, it appears to prompt the opposite effect (only in the mind of the thinker. In actuality, nothing happens.)

 

You need to define spacing out. Conversing with you here, to me, is spacing out. I won't die if we stop talking. Spacing out means not being focussed and engaged in doing a job or attending to practical matters at hand.

 

Because there is no false self, there is no true self to realize. Its just a heroic mythic adventure tale which people follow so as to bellow the fires of ego and to add interest to an otherwise dulled existence. In short, distractions are powerful stuff. Even the preoccupation with learning how to die, however noble it sounds, can be classified as one.

 

I am losing you here. You said earlier that realizing the "true self" is not separate from existential needs. Now, you say there is no true self to realize and it's all a distraction.

 

Why do you say that learning how to die is a distraction? Do you think getting one's affairs in order like making a will to ensure the family is provided in case one should die is a distraction? Making a will is like preparing for departure. But no one knows anything about departing because it is as undesirable as being forcibly pushed off the rooftop by a couple of Taoist thugs called Cow head and Horse face.

[sree]

Nah man he hit an interesting spot. I personaly welcome everyone's participation, even if they're joking or saying something absurd. To put aside someone's word is to put on blinders. Clarity can come from anywhere at any moment, that's why I never hold back on posting a joke reply on someone's thread even if it means they may dislike my lack of seriousness, I firmly believe truth streams through humour.

 

This is not the Chinese tradition that has a high regard for learning especially in olden days. Even today, in China, respect for learning is evident in schools. The classrooms in China are nothing like the lack of seriousness in American high schools. My first encounter with the absurd happened on my first day in university in America. No one bowed when the professor, clad in blue jeans, entered the classroom. He placed his briefcase on his table, sat on it cross-legged, looked at us and said "hi". And that was supposed to be the beginning of my education in one of the best schools in the world.

 

As long as I am conducting this class, you will have to change your attitude and cut out this self-indulgent behavior if you want to contribute to the learning of anything serious. Rocket science is easy compared to what we are doing here. We are studying how to die and no one since the beginning of the human race has gotten a passing grade.

 

What he's saying can be applied to our little thread here. While I talked about how death and life are basically the same thing, he talked about there being a clear difference in spite of them being part of the same experience, which is the experience of being.

 

Why do you say death and life are the same thing? Please understand that when you make a submission make sure you can validate it. A lack of seriousness in dispelling ignorance is a lack of regard for mankind.

Edited April 25, 2013 by sree

[Stosh]

Disrespect of cultures shows a lack of respect for mankind.

Which believe it or not, includes American culture which trends to egalitarian.

The novelty and creativity which it fosters, is an element some eastern schools wish to inculcate.

Aint that dispelling ignorance ?

[thelerner]

Wow, what a cool professor. Did you slack off because of appearances? I didn't realize you weren't just asking questions and dismissing answers, but were considering yourself the 'Professor' of this topic. Which is fine. You created this topic, but as its leader you haven't framed what you're looking for so we're spit balling on topics of afterlife and living well, while you're dismissive of most of the answers.

 

If you studied zen you might have found the phrase and philosophy life and death being the same. Not making a special deal out of death, ie its a natural thing to be faced calmly. The warriors walk being his everyday walk.

 

Perhaps you can phrase a question that's less ambiguous.

[Jetsun]

This is not the Chinese tradition that has a high regard for learning especially in olden days. Even today, in China, respect for learning is evident in schools. The classrooms in China are nothing like the lack of seriousness in American high schools. My first encounter with the absurd happened on my first day in university in America. No one bowed when the professor, clad in blue jeans, entered the classroom. He placed his briefcase on his table, sat on it cross-legged, looked at us and said "hi". And that was supposed to be the beginning of my education in one of the best schools in the world.

 

In the Chinese way everything has its "proper place" which stifles innovation and creativity, which is why the Chinese government spend so much time trying to steal industrial secrets and ideas from Western companies and why the majority of their innovations are just copies. Whereas the more American relaxed way breaks down barriers and allows freedom of creativity, which allows for example a 15 year old school boy to create a revolutionary cancer detector for a science project which gets taken seriously by John Hopkins University http://www.social-consciousness.com/2013/02/fifteen-year-old-invents-cancer-diagnosing-method.html

[sree]

Disrespect of cultures shows a lack of respect for mankind.

Which believe it or not, includes American culture which trends to egalitarian.

The novelty and creativity which it fosters, is an element some eastern schools wish to inculcate.

Aint that dispelling ignorance ?

 

Even in America, there are dress codes in places where you can't waltz in with your pants halfway down your butt. If you don't want to follow the rules, get out or security would throw you out and that is perfectly legal.

 

Hooliganism is frowned on in any culture especially in the classroom. Egalitarians don't make it in America.

[Stosh]

I said trend to it, as in..( so you can see it for yourself that we have 'a' culture )

and its origins go back just as far as your own .. beyond the mists of time, and not isolated

 

Yes, no matter where one goes -there are rules , sometimes they are vague, other times strict

but although we may differ in degree of display ,everybody prefers a degree of respect

 

For instance I tend to be informal with folks I respect and more formal with folks I dont even know (or dont like).

Formalities are developed to mitigate potential hostilities due to accidental crossing of boundaries

people I know and like , get preferred status , leeway and consideration ,

, they are not considered to be transgressing -by me- unless they get way out of control

 

Others may display preferred status with increased ! formality , but dont mistake this difference as a total absence of respect. Genuine respect may or may not be there , it takes observance over time to tell the difference between it and the reverse , wouldnt you say -as well?

Edited April 25, 2013 by Stosh

[sree]

Wow, what a cool professor. Did you slack off because of appearances? I didn't realize you weren't just asking questions and dismissing answers, but were considering yourself the 'Professor' of this topic. Which is fine. You created this topic, but as its leader you haven't framed what you're looking for so we're spit balling on topics of afterlife and living well, while you're dismissive of most of the answers.

 

If you studied zen you might have found the phrase and philosophy life and death being the same. Not making a special deal out of death, ie its a natural thing to be faced calmly. The warriors walk being his everyday walk.

 

Perhaps you can phrase a question that's less ambiguous.

 

Why don't you phrase the question?

 

I began with "How do I die?" "I" meaning you and everyone alive. If my question is too ambiguous, then why don't you narrow down the focus on what I perceive is a problem. This does not imply that I am passing the chore to you. A lot of you guys out there don't see it as a problem and won't be part of the investigative effort. I feel it is not only a pressing question but a fascinating one that even the brightest out there can't figure out.

 

Healthcare is a multi-billion dollar industry not meant to keep you healthy but to keep the Grim Reaper at bay. If we can find out how to die which is not committing suicide but uncover the very nature of life itself, then dying needn't be so unnerving.

 

Chapter 19 advocates the abandonment of knowledge. This means that to find the Tao of dying everything in our heads must be junked - no zen, no biology or pyschology, not even Taoism.

 

I am not the leader of this inquiry. I am driving blind here. If you are not interested in the quest, you'd better jump out because we are going over the cliff with both hands free into the unknown.

[sree]

I said trend to it, as in..( so you can see it for yourself that we have 'a' culture )

and its origins go back just as far as your own .. beyond the mists of time, and not isolated

 

Yes, no matter where one goes -there are rules , sometimes they are vague, other times strict

but although we may differ in degree of display ,everybody prefers a degree of respect

 

For instance I tend to be informal with folks I respect and more formal with folks I dont even know (or dont like).

Formalities are developed to mitigate potential hostilities due to accidental crossing of boundaries

people I know and like , get preferred status , leeway and consideration ,

, they are not considered to be transgressing -by me- unless they get way out of control

 

Others may display preferred status with increased ! formality , but dont mistake this difference as a total absence of respect. Genuine respect may or may not be there , it takes observance over time to tell the difference between it and the reverse , wouldnt you say -as well?

 

Don't be so uptight. It's bad enough out there beyond the worldwide web where life is oppressive everywhich way one turns. This is cyberspace, my space. Each of us is inside his own head which is open to the world. I can look inside your head and you can look inside mine. It's kinda neat because there is no hiding from each other. Don't blow a fuse just because you don't like what you see in my head. It's supposed to be private but you are given privileged access that no one, not even the FBI has. If you don't like what you see in my head, tell me about it but don't call me names or insist I change my mind according to your dictates. Change should only be made on a "willing buyer willing seller" basis. Is that fair?

 

Do you prefer that I close up my head just because you cannot deal with your hang ups? In that case, we all might as well get out of this forum and walk right past each other the way people do in real life.

[sree]

In the Chinese way everything has its "proper place" which stifles innovation and creativity, which is why the Chinese government spend so much time trying to steal industrial secrets and ideas from Western companies and why the majority of their innovations are just copies. Whereas the more American relaxed way breaks down barriers and allows freedom of creativity, which allows for example a 15 year old school boy to create a revolutionary cancer detector for a science project which gets taken seriously by John Hopkins University http://www.social-consciousness.com/2013/02/fifteen-year-old-invents-cancer-diagnosing-method.html

 

Life is great in the US for those who live in an environment that foster teenage creativeness. For the rest of America, it is one tough grind no better than life in China where kids don't gun down or blow up other people to vent rage. People steal secrets in China in order to survive. People steal insider-trading secrets in America in order to make millions of dollars off other people. I don't think you can make a case for which is the better cultural setting because the ground is shifting as we speak. At any rate, I was arguing for the need of discipline, and creativeness (Tao) does have its own discipline. That fifteen year-old in your link displayed an innate discipline, the kind that is fostered in the Chinese school. American competitiveness cannot rest on the one-off creative kid alone. Without cultural discipline, entire civilizations have crumbled.

 

China is the only great civilization standing. Let's hope America will still be around in 4000 A.D. as top of the heap and king of the hill.

[Stosh]

Don't be so uptight. It's bad enough out there beyond the worldwide web where life is oppressive everywhich way one turns. This is cyberspace, my space. Each of us is inside his own head which is open to the world. I can look inside your head and you can look inside mine. It's kinda neat because there is no hiding from each other. Don't blow a fuse just because you don't like what you see in my head. It's supposed to be private but you are given privileged access that no one, not even the FBI has. If you don't like what you see in my head, tell me about it but don't call me names or insist I change my mind according to your dictates. Change should only be made on a "willing buyer willing seller" basis. Is that fair?

 

Do you prefer that I close up my head just because you cannot deal with your hang ups? In that case, we all might as well get out of this forum and walk right past each other the way people do in real life.

You seem to have been snapping at folks quite a bit , and been defend it in the name of free speech and free thought.

If thats really the sentiment of your thoughts , then Its you who should consider the pressures on you that bring that to be, (again not to please me , not to please the FBI ).

Turning the blame on its head wont change that for you.

(whether you feel you have made a 'convincing' turnabout or not.)

You are still making arguments which may be sound in some respects but are ultimately unethical ,,and you are still pitting the United States against China in a battle for one upsmanship. Even if those elements are there in Jetsuns comments there is no call that you have to stay with that track , you are still choosing it.

Take a breath let stuff cool and take it up in a bit if its still valid.

[zanshin]

 

 

Picking entry or exit points and timing market shifts are exciting for making bets. I don't do this for three reasons. Firstly, I don't like gambling. Secondly, I don't take risks even if they can be hedged. Thirdly, high-frequency trading has taken over the market place and is the game-changer. Trading the markets using technical analysis these days is like making chess moves against IBM's Big Blue.

 

There is no way possible to understand things beyond the intellectual level. Don't cheat because you would be just fooling yourself. I never cheat because self-deception is deadly when making investment decisions, and they have real painful consequences. I apply the same discipline in studying the Tao Te Ching. Never cheat. This is why Taoist deities give me a wide berth and Tao Masters on this side of Taoist Hell cannot penetrate my defenses. Losing your mind is a lot more sad than losing money.

You don't take risks even if they can be hedged. Your ultimate exit point is still a risk and no one here or probably anywhere else can help you understand things right. Making judgements might seem authoritative but it does not take intellect to throw out subjective adjectives- good bad, neat, tough, great, ambiguous, creative, uptight. Why, and still what does this mean how to die? Perhaps help us understand what objective criteria would determine a successful or ideal exit point?

Edited April 25, 2013 by zanshin

[sree]

You seem to have been snapping at folks quite a bit , and been defend it in the name of free speech and free thought.

If thats really the sentiment of your thoughts , then Its you who should consider the pressures on you that bring that to be, (again not to please me , not to please the FBI ).

Turning the blame on its head wont change that for you.

(whether you feel you have made a 'convincing' turnabout or not.)

You are still making arguments which may be sound in some respects but are ultimately unethical ,,and you are still pitting the United States against China in a battle for one upsmanship. Even if those elements are there in Jetsuns comments there is no call that you have to stay with that track , you are still choosing it.

Take a breath let stuff cool and take it up in a bit if its still valid.

 

Does the rose care if you don't like the way it struts on the bush and mar the look of the garden? Screw you!

 

I am the daffodil. Screw you too.

 

Are you really a philosophical Daoist or Sister O'Malley?

[Stosh]

My My !, I had to look up that reference , very creative !

But it proves my point that you are being very hostile,

and intend hostility.

Unless you are posting to dump vitriol ,,, you arent succeeding

Take a breath, let stuff cool, and take it back up- if its still valid once you've cooled down.

[zanshin]

[Birch]

Sree, alright dude?